Chris Norton: 0:52

Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast that helps you hit record revenue and double your marketing ROI, all by learning from the world's top marketers and their glorious marketing mistakes. I'm Chris Norton, the founder of Prohibition, one of Yorkshire's biggest PR agencies, which I've led for over 12 years. My mission is simple to help you, the senior marketer, grow your brand, achieve record-breaking revenue and create a thriving business. In this week's episode, we're asking a crucial question Can class diversity and a more human-centric approach to strategy revolutionize marketing? Well, joining us is Lisa Thompson, strategy lead at Wavemaker and founder of Common People. Strategy lead at Wavemaker and founder of Common People. Wavemaker is a global media agency that helps some of the world's biggest brands grow and thrive through innovative media strategies. Common People, founded by Lisa, is dedicated to democratizing access to creative careers, ensuring that talent from all backgrounds can break into the industry.

Chris Norton: 1:48

Have you ever wondered if your marketing truly resonates with all audiences? Lisa's journey shows us the best strategies that often come from challenging the status quo. Together, we're going to explore how overlooking class diversity in your campaigns can actually lead to missed opportunities, and why it's essential to balance data with human intuition to drive genuine, real results. I know you're going to love this episode because it's packed with insights that will challenge the way that you think about marketing and push you to create campaigns that truly connect with all audiences. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's hear how you can make your marketing more inclusive, effective and impactful. Enjoy and welcome to the showisa. How are you doing?

Lisa Thompson: 2:34

hi, I'm good, thanks. How are you?

Chris Norton: 2:35

it's sunny, which is rare, so I'm very good so, um, lisa, why don't you tell us, um, you've come on the show, your background, you've you've co-founded a group called common people. Why don't you tell us a little bit? I want to get into that and I want to get, because it's a really fascinating area, um, but I also want to get into that and I want to get, because it's a really fascinating area, um, but I also want to understand how you got into the industry yourself. Before you, you founded common people and your, you know, your, your experience of what drove you to do that. If that's okay, yeah of course.

Lisa Thompson: 3:02

So I am. So I'll go back to the beginning. So I am from a place called Wakefield, which is near Leeds, um, and I am from a working class background like first generation to go to uni. Um, I think the point on uni is quite interesting because I don't think, had I be, had I been finishing school today, I would have gone to university because, um, it's really expensive, um. But I also think, um, when I was at school, obviously, the Labour government in chat was in charge and university was the thing that was always pushed. So I think, from being year eight, year nine, university was kind of billed as the the thing that you should do, and so I went to Manchester Uni.

Lisa Thompson: 3:47

Um, out of my group of friends, I kind of hadn't really thought about this until I started doing common people stuff. But out of my kind of friends, I kind of hadn't really thought about this until I started doing common people stuff. But out of my kind of six best friends, 50% went to private school. I, there was me and one other girl who had part-time jobs to fund university and none of the others uh did, or they would have a job during the summer to fund kind of traveling um, but wouldn't work. And I think when I went to Manchester uni, like looking back, was the first time I kind of traveling um, but wouldn't work. And I think when I went to Manchester Uni, like looking back was the first time, I kind of noticed kind of differences. And it sounds like a really trivial difference. But, um, I'm an international, I'm from Wakefield, um, so football would be the sport that I would go to. Or if we did rugby, it would be rugby league, um. And I just remember getting to uni and everyone was like they had like a rugby, like the Wednesday afternoon was for like athletics and it was all rugby union. And that was the first time I was like, oh, this is a a little bit weird, um. And then I don't really know why I wanted to work in advertising, um, I I think it might have been because Mad Men was on at the time and I thought it looked quite cool. But I got a job. So I work in Wavemaker, a media planning and buying agency in Manchester.

Lisa Thompson: 5:01

I had decided very early on that I couldn't afford to live in London and didn't really want to. And I think media agencies are actually quite brilliant because they seem to have proper entry-level roles, whereas when I was looking at, I was looking at jobs in PR and creative agencies and they were all like exec roles where you needed to have some form of experience, which I couldn't understand how people had got um. So I started doing it um, worked in a northern office, very kind of accessible, never really felt more kind of myself at work than I think I'd ever did at university. And I then, oh God, I did it. I started in 2019.

Lisa Thompson: 5:48

I did a qualification called the IPA Excellence Diploma. I did a qualification called the IPA Excellence Diploma and the final. So within that course you will do things about like a theory of brand, but there was like a section that covered diversity and a lot of reading on that area, and we had to, for our final assignment, write what you thought you believed the future of brands was, and my final essay was about the I believe the future of brand. You know, I believe for brands to have a future, we need to kill the elephant in the diversity room, which was class. So at the time, no one was talking about class in advertising and no one was, and kind of even class in advertising. Um, no one was um, kind of even like looking at it as a metric. It wasn't seen as a thing and um. So I wrote um.

Lisa Thompson: 6:39

I wrote an essay. We were supposed to do an essay, a talk and a viva panel. Um, a viva panel is where you get interviewed on your, your essay. I for a long time was calling it a Viva panel, um, but um. So I wrote this essay and the talk didn't happen because Covid happened and it got um. The essay gets marked and my essay was marked by someone called Jed Hallam, who I think you guys know um, who at the time was the chief strategy officer at Initiative. He marked my essay and did my viber panel and the essay won the john bartle prize for the best um, I believe, essay.

Lisa Thompson: 7:19

Um, and I don't think when I was writing it I had really thought about me too much in it. I just thought about it being an issue. I always thought that within advertising, we forget that the people that we're trying to kind of communicate with are, um, not the people that we like surround ourselves with. And it turned out Jed had been thinking the same thing and there's been several, several groups of people who have this conversation and we kept having like chats about it, post that. So I got to know Jed a little bit. I, um, when I'd won the prize, I like tweeted my essay um out and got a lot, of, a lot of kind of response to it. Loads of people saying, oh my god, like I completely feel like this is a thing and it seems kind of like something.

Lisa Thompson: 8:06

Um, and then in 2021, um, after me talking to Jed and Jed talking to various people, he and I had, he'd read something and he tweeted about the fact we needed to do something about it and so he started. We decided that he was like I'll start a WhatsApp group for people who want to discuss it, and within 24 hours we'd filled a WhatsApp group which at that time, was 250 people, and we realized that there was like something in it. So what had started of a let's get together and discuss how we feel and what we can do started into a bit of a thing. So me, jed and a couple of other people led to that and we eventually got to the point where we made our kind of mission what was to make common people more common in the creative industry. So we as an organization, um, we try and get class talked about, because it's not often talked about a lot um, within the creative industry. So that includes like doing things like this, talking at places writing about it.

Lisa Thompson: 9:20

The WhatsApp group has kind of become this brilliant forum because we realized in advertising and kind of all marketing, really in all creative industries you're going up against like an old boys network. So people were getting jobs because they knew people and even if there wasn't like a really obvious nepotism of I've employed my nephew, what we also found was that actually within these industries, you often knew people who worked in it. So when you went for an interview, you knew the things to prep, you knew what to look at, you need to do that, and so people were having a bit of an advantage, and free work experience is obviously a huge thing. Um, like, there were people who couldn't do free work experience. So the whatsapp group has become a, I suppose, a bit of like an anti-old boys network and that will include people like asking for advice, and so we would have people say this is going on at work. What do you think it will have? People say I'm going freelance, how do you set your rates? It will have, um, people got jobs out of the whatsapp group so we always share jobs. Or we have people who will say, oh, I've got this awful work thing and people share jobs. Um, so it's become this real community.

Lisa Thompson: 10:30

There's a lot of like non, um, non chat on it. There's like one very heated discussion we had about whether sophie ellis vex, the murder on the dance floor, was a tune. It is a tune, um, so like a really nice kind of social group actually. A lot of people who never met but just like chat to each other. And then the third thing that we've recently started doing is events. So we had our first Common People Meetup in London. We are working on an event with the SM, the Social Mobility Foundation, in Manchester in September which we're hoping to get a celebrity and a politician to kind of lobby.

Lisa Thompson: 11:02

And we have a. We kind of try and tackle some of the economic barriers. So we have soft launched a fund which is essentially for people in the community who I suppose might need some finance to help them out. So things that tend to we tend to support with are I need an adobe license and I can't afford it, or, um, there's this training that would be really useful, or can you help me fund my entry into this competition and we fund that through um various things we do. We will kind of um like ask for a fee for. So. There's been some things, um like training that we've done for businesses where they've paid to do it, and also we have merch. We do like runs of merch, so we recently did um, I've seen your teacher.

Chris Norton: 11:48

I've seen your t-shirt, looks pretty good.

Lisa Thompson: 11:50

so they're, they're good. So yeah, that, yeah that is how. And then I then so common people's fan from there. It's something I'm really passionate about. I think I'm not just passionate Class diversity obviously there's two. Class diversity is very close to my heart. Gender diversity is very close to my heart, obviously, things that impact me, but I really just I think we should be making all of our industries as diverse as possible, not just because it's the right thing to do, but we'll get better work.

Will Ockenden: 12:24

Like, if you look throughout history, all of the places that have been the most creative have had diversity ingrained into it. Yeah, that's an interesting point, isn't it? And I've read various research that suggests, particularly in creative teams, the more diverse a team, the more um, you know, a diverse team will always outperform a less diverse team. So why don't you talk well, why don't you talk about some of the benefits of a more diverse team when it comes to creativity? I mean, ultimately, it's down to cognitive diversity, isn't it?

Lisa Thompson: 12:46

yeah, so in my essay I used um. The hook of my essay was um a book called collective genius, which was like looking at the most diverse, looking at the most creative companies, and in it they identified something called creative abrasion, which is, in order for you to kind of get to good ideas, you need some abrasion in it. So, um, you need people have different viewpoints not conflict as such, but people with different views and they found that the most diverse companies had had that creative abrasion. And there is revenue and things. There's some research by Deloitte that shows that diverse teams have will make, that they will deliver. There will have often an increase of up to 33 percent revenue versus a non-diverse team. So there's a real business benefit to it.

Lisa Thompson: 13:33

Um, if you look at kind of advertising, specifically with from a class perspective, what's really interesting about advertising and probably PR and similarly kind of marketing is um, advertising used to be really good for class diversity. So in the 80s and 90s you naturally had people um that coming up. You'll talk, you'll hear the old school stories about coming up through the purse room. And bbh um, like their three founders, were three from three very different backgrounds, and if you think about the work that bbh have done. Like that levi's ad um in the laundrette is one of the best pieces of advertising today, so it increases creativity.

Lisa Thompson: 14:18

There's also evidence about you being more innovative. So you get into more innovative solutions and have been at the forefront. But like there really isn't a business argument against diversity, like it's more creativity, innovation, more revenue and also actually there's evidence that diverse teams, more people want to work for them. So which whichever um, I suppose, whichever kind of where your team is diverse. If you're diverse, people want to work with you because it's cool and it's exciting, and so actually it's a really important talent tool as well.

Chris Norton: 14:54

So I mean, you work in Manchester, right? So you're from Wakefield, which is where my wife's from. Oh, really, yeah, yeah, and you work in Manchester. Have you worked in Manchester your whole career, then?

Lisa Thompson: 15:08

Yes, yeah.

Chris Norton: 15:12

Because the bit that's interesting to me is obviously we've got the north-south divide as well in the creative industry. So, jed Hallam I gave him his first job in PR and from a working background because I'm from a working class background, but it was main. He was on a previous podcast and we told his story about how, how I recruited him, because he he basically I don't know he sort of he he bribed me into it with an amazing idea. Um, but one thing I wanted to talk about with the north south, does that divide in terms of you? You've been in manchester, because it's very interesting that you've talked about that.

Chris Norton: 15:44

Obviously I don't work in advertising. We do work, do some social advertising, but I I've worked in public relations and I started my job in london and and a story that I tell to my is that I actually changed my. I haven't even told Will this before, but I actually changed my accent because I'm from. I'm from Harrogate, which is a bit of a posher part of Yorkshire, if you want to. That's how people from my wife's friends used to say oh, you're from Harrogate, right, but when you go down south which is my point now you go down south to London and I was suddenly, oh, they don't know what Harrogate was, so they say I was from Leeds or whatever. And I actually I adjusted my accent so I didn't sound as northern. I remember actively doing that. So I was sounded a lot different. When I came back, my friends said to me you sound different because I've lived down there. Back my friends said to me you sound different because I've lived down there.

Chris Norton: 16:34

Obviously, you living in manchester, it's quite interesting that you've said that there is, there's a class, a class thing there as well. So is it? Is everybody in the manchester? Because I always thought I think of manchester as a working class city. Do you know what I mean? So is it working class or is it? Is it mainly private schools and stuff?

Lisa Thompson: 16:50

so I think where where I work, I work in, I actually think our class diversity is all right, I think. But I think it was only recently that we and this isn't just at a Manchester level, a UK level a couple of years ago we removed the requirement to have a degree. So I think by its very nature, that kind of prerequisite of having a degree meant that you didn't have as much class diversity as you should have. I, manchester is significantly better than london. I don't think you have as many kind of people who were privately educated and it does have a northern vibe. But I do think there's places where, um, where class is apparent, um, and is in there. So I think one of the reasons I chose manchester was because I could be more of myself and feel like I didn't have to hide my accent, um, it's an industry-wide issue.

Will Ockenden: 17:51

Is it perhaps more pronounced in in london than the southeast? I mean, what sort of stats are we talking here? You know. So if you look at the typical, you know the ad industry as a whole. Let's say what kind of percentage of a workforce is, is working class and, and you know, maybe in pr and marketing as well, what are we looking at?

Lisa Thompson: 18:11

So in the UK population of working class is 39% If you look at advertising, I think the last dip of it was 20%, 21% I think. But it actually gets worse if you look at certain roles within agencies. So if you look at things like strategy and account management, it gets even worse. So there are jobs that really annoys me as a strategist that they're deemed as really like academic jobs and so you need this certain way of doing it. Me and Jed often joke about strategists that strategists are always um very middle class. Uh, white men called Tom um, she's usually five um. I think PR is similar at like 22 percent um within that. I know that if you look at the private school population within advertising, the uk, the national uk figure is seven to eight percent and it's up to like 18 to 19 percent within advertising. I feel like I need to check these stats. I feel like my brain's gone blank and but it's like 39 and versus 20 um. I think that um marketing is probably very similar.

Will Ockenden: 19:29

I don't know whether they've they've done kind of a census on it um, but yeah, it's versus 39 is very significantly down yeah, and I'm sure there's certain sectors I mean, you know, fashion, um, public affairs, lobbying which will be even less, you know, even less working class. So from a you know there'll be our listeners will be listening to this thinking okay, interesting, but what's the impact? What's the impact for a brand or for an agency of having a lack of class diversity on your team? What does it actually mean practically speaking?

Lisa Thompson: 20:01

So I always think the majority of our campaigns are aimed at the national population and I think it means that we are not that certain that people aren't understanding of what's going on in the real world. Um, so I think it means your audience insight suffers because you've just not got that view of what goes on in in life. Um, we probably have like huge, there'll be like huge biases. There's some really brilliant research that channel four did recently.

Lisa Thompson: 20:36

Um, that was about like the social grade classifications and how it's like actually really outdated and because it we always talk about like social grade, which is slightly different to class based on occupation, and people presume that actually people in certain occupations don't earn as much money. But you'll know that from like skilled tradesmen, who people would traditionally talk about like from a from an affluent point of view, actually probably have the type of money that we should, that we should be um engaging with. I think it means that because we don't have that class diversity, we don't get better ideas. So our work and our effectiveness is suffering. Um, and I actually just don't. I think it like it just means we're not as in touch with like what's actually really going on in the world and things like the cost of living crisis and all factors that we talk about impacting our industry, but we don't often really understand how it's really impacting the audiences we're trying to reach, and all of the campaigns that are the most successful are campaigns where they really understand the audience that's so true.

Will Ockenden: 22:17

I mean, you know, how could um you know, let's say, nike or adidas have a campaign that wants to target young inner city kids? How could a group of privately educated middle class men possibly understand the challenges that audience are going through? And really it's true for all forms of diversity, isn't it? I mean, I know this is about class, but all forms of diversity. How can we possibly um develop creative that's going to resonate if we don't understand the challenges or the issues those communities um or demographics face?

Lisa Thompson: 22:50

yeah, exactly, and I think at best it's not understanding it, but some of the things we've encountered within the whatsapp group is like the discrimination and the biases people have about certain brands and certain things. So, um, people um talking about certain things, being chavvy or making comments about like holiday, like destinations or or doing that. So I think, at the kind of very best, it's just you don't understand it, but what we're also seeing, um in places is actually people that the people that are trying to reach these audiences have like go into it with like no empathy and often like really awful biases about certain things. So I think, in order to reach an audience, as well as understanding them, it's really important you have empathy and there's just a real lack of empathy so if you're a marketer now listening to this and you're going right, how can I stop, how can I stop us being biased?

Chris Norton: 23:43

because I've listened to what you you've said and what we've discussed and you're like, how can I stop my team being by, how can I stop being recruiting, you know, just one class of people? How can I make it more open? So, is the first thing to say no degrees? Then is that the first sort of practical step?

Lisa Thompson: 23:58

that's a really important first step. I think the other thing to do is, if you you have that in mind is getting in touch and working with kind of like colleges and schools so people know about the industry. So we at Wavemaker have developed a relationship with Manchester College and so when we have our kind of entry level jobs, they recruit into it, they, they recruit into it. Um, there are things that you I think the other really big thing is you need to sort out your pay structure. Like there are people who, within certain jobs like I think, particularly in um marketing, but also things like fashion, pr like they're expecting people to either work for free or not have a real living wage. So one really important fundamental thing to do is just pay people a living wage, like we should be paying people properly. There's a huge amount of money in our industry. I'm sure if some of the big bucks got slightly less there and put that into more junior level, you would do that.

Lisa Thompson: 25:00

I think the other thing is um is like thinking about your culture and and whether it's fit for purpose, because there's one thing recruiting people from working class backgrounds, but if they come in and don't feel welcome, then you're gonna, you're gonna lose them. So, um, if you are really serious about doing it, there's a really amazing organization called Commercial Break. James Hillhouse who heads it acts as part of the Common People Group and he helps with that, but his business will audit companies to see whether they're kind of best fit for people to come into, and that came from. They used to have a program placing working class talent within agencies and basically the people that they were matching were having such awful experiences that actually they said you know what? We're not going to match people until companies can prove that they are fit for purpose. So another really important thing you can do is kind of audit it and think about how you recruit and this doesn't this just isn't a class thing. It drives me absolutely up the wall when we have jobs for like 16 to 24 year olds and we put them on linkedin like I'm not necessarily a huge linkedin fan, I do it for work like a 16 year old isn't going to be and also think about the people who.

Lisa Thompson: 26:26

Think about the people who's. If you're recruiting people from a working class background. There's parents probably aren't using LinkedIn. They might be working in industries where they don't use it, so they won't get that tip of go to LinkedIn to look for jobs. So yeah, just to summarize, I think three things get rid of a degree. I don't believe you need it, like we're not doctors, like you don't need to have like a really technical thing. Pay a real living wage, like pay properly. But also think about where you recruit and so make sure you're finding those people. But, really importantly, if you're bringing people in, like make sure your culture is fit for purpose. The worst thing you can do is bring people in and they're not feel welcome because either they leave or they mask who they are and you don't get all the benefits of their kind of way of thinking.

Chris Norton: 27:12

Sorry Will, can I just ask this one question Do you ever think, lisa, that your class has held you back from getting a job? That has gone to somebody that's from a middle-class background.

Lisa Thompson: 27:27

I've actually been at Wavemaker, then MEC since I graduated, so I've been there oh 14 years, four years, 14.

Chris Norton: 27:35

14 years, right? Yeah, I mean, I just said four.

Lisa Thompson: 27:37

I feel like the skin stuff is working. So I don't feel it necessarily has, because I've been there. I think it probably did. When I was applying for jobs, I think um one like I remember I was really interested in um like kind of like tv production marketing and just applying for BBC schemes and just not getting anywhere.

Lisa Thompson: 28:01

Um, now, some of that I don't like, some of that I don't. I just didn't even get through to interview. So I think there's two parts of that. One is I think they probably have people with private schools or certain things on their CV that they will favor. But I also think I probably just hadn't ever really learned how to do a covering letter or a CV at school or like university. So it probably did it. I think it probably did pre pre me starting work. But I think if had I moved to London, it definitely would like you can hear that there's some strong dulcet Yorkshire tones here. Um, I'm quite a chatty um lounge like northern girl. I feel like I definitely would have had biases and even though I haven't, we know that there are people from the group who feel from our common people group, that feel like they're not getting jobs because of their background.

Will Ockenden: 28:56

Hmm, something you said there was quite interesting about in terms of the kind of practical steps employers can take about broadening recruitment practices. So it's not enough just to kind of be passive about it and say, look, we've not got working class people applying for roles, therefore we can't recruit them you actually. A proactive approach is actually needed, isn't it, whereby you actually reach out to perhaps working class communities like you said, colleges or schools and they may not even know about the creative industries as a career option. You know their parents might come from, you know traditional working class roles. They might not even know about advertising. So proactivity is really important, isn't it?

Lisa Thompson: 29:37

yeah, and I think there's like a really huge like irony that we work in marketing but we're really like shit at marketing ourselves, like we just expect people to like find us. We're like those like we almost act, like those campaigns where we think we're going to go viral without putting any like money or like like thought into it. So I think we're like really bad at marketing ourselves. So, yeah, you've got to make a conscious effort and that is not just where you like place your roles, it's about how you think about your um recruitment practices structure. So, um, if one thing that actually like law firms do, that I think is a really nickable thing and easy thing to do is offer for to pay for people to travel to interviews, because we know that a lot of people, particularly in London, if they're traveling in and out of London, the cost of a train ticket can be really prohibitive. So there's like covering train tickets and then also like training the people that are like interviewing. So not even I don't even know if it used to be as formal as training, but we a couple of weeks ago had our thrive program at wavemaker that I worked on a team to kind of help design and it's basically an entry-level program for school leavers, basically anyone school leavers, grads, um career changes that might want to come like be new to media and obviously when you're interviewing, like if you're interviewing a school leaver that's 18, regardless of any background stuff, they're just going to be very different to a grad because you know the changes that will happen between being 18 and 21. So we make a point of explaining, like letting the candidates know who are school, who are, letting the interviews know who are school leavers, and offerings're kind of giving a bit of background on that and also, like you've got to be kind of looking at when you're getting people to interview, make sure you get in the kind of right mix of it. So I think it's training people when they do the interviews that they don't let biases of things like impact you and even people.

Lisa Thompson: 31:39

I still think people have this really weird thing that like a degree means you're like way better. Like I did a drama degree, like it was quite an academic drama degree, but like other than me being like this sounds a bit derogatory, but other than like I can remember some cracking um creative ideas, brainstorming, warm-up, like I don't use all of the things day to day like, yeah, I learned, like I had a great time, I learned a lot, but I don't think I need it in my day-to-day. So getting people, I think there's a big like education piece to get people to not think that you need a degree, that the degree is the thing that makes you suitable yeah, yeah, that's interesting and and that idea of kind of um, I think a lot of what you said there is true for all forms of diversity, isn't it?

Will Ockenden: 32:21

You know, and that's really valuable. Now, is this problem getting worse? You mentioned that, you know, perhaps in the 80s, 90s class in the ad industry in particular, was more diverse. Is it still getting worse? I mean, you're obviously doing some great work with common people. Are you kind of measuring the impact in any way?

Lisa Thompson: 32:48

And what's your view for?

Will Ockenden: 32:48

the next few years.

Lisa Thompson: 32:49

So I am an eternal optimist, a leeds fan. You've kind of got to have that to like get you through life, absolutely. Um, so I one of the things I actually think is that the majority of people want to make it better. I think you've got a few bad apples who can like impact people. I think you've also got a lot of people who don't start aware of it. So I think the real positives are class has kind of been a conversation, more so than ever before.

Lisa Thompson: 33:11

The Ad Association now have a census that tracks it. The IPA after I may have kicked off at them because they didn't include class in their D&I certificate wrote we wrote a certificate. So there's really like positive steps happening. Um, I think when you listen to people talk that have businesses, to people I've done, they feel really positive. The the thing that's worrying, though, is the stats aren't moving on the census. So between 2019 um, they weren't getting worse, but they weren't getting better. So between 2019 and 2021 and 2023, when the census was done, the numbers were the same um, so it's not moving yet.

Lisa Thompson: 33:56

But I think you've always got to be a bit mindful with dates, because I do think it takes a long time to see that come through, particularly because a lot of the initiatives are happening are happening at a junior level and for that to kind of then work its way up, um. So I think there is the potential to get better and it's interest, but people need to do the work in order to do it. So and I also think that, um, I think people could lots of business like oh yeah, we want a diverse workforce, but when, like times get a bit tough while they're doing it, they kind of forget about it, so you kind of have to constantly be on it. So I don't think we'll ever have a have a position, have a time where we're not talking about it. The same with, like, gender and race, like it will still always be an issue. So I'm optimistic, it can change and we've seen good inroads, but the data isn't moving yet, so we need to keep working harder.

Will Ockenden: 34:47

So the sectors I mean, you know I don't have the data on this, but I'd imagine you know law, accounting, etc. You know there's certain kind of professional services which I'd imagine have a similar issue with class. It sounds like the legal industry is taking some steps to kind of proactively challenge it. Have you seen anything else in other sectors, either where there's a big problem or whether there's really kind of positive steps where they've they've managed to kind of change things?

Lisa Thompson: 35:13

and so the um legal is one one. So if you look so, the social mobility foundation release an index and every year that's like the top 100 advertisers for class mobility and legal businesses are always in there. Actually, a lot of the big accounting firms, like your deloitte's, your kpmgs, um, are people that feature um, they, um and then um, so they a lot of the things that the impact brought. There was a legal firm I can't remember it was like one of those legal firms that had like multiple like letters in it but they were doing things like. They had a program. They work with the SNF on a aspiring professional programs and they would mentor people from areas to help with things like their university statements and help with um kind of interview practice, so getting that real life experience.

Lisa Thompson: 36:04

So actually what's quite interesting is, I think, within like marketing and pr and advertising, like oh god, we're well diverse, we're also creative and casual, but actually the yeah, the places that are doing really good stuff are the more corporate industry, so they're kind of ahead of us on it.

Lisa Thompson: 36:21

And there's like a really interesting thing about like and I don't know if you've ever read it there's a really good book called the class ceiling which I used in my essay, and it's like case studies, various and channel four.

Lisa Thompson: 36:31

They're not named in the book but it's quite out there that channel four was the area and they talk about like the class perceptions of it and they talked about actually one of the biggest like issues in creative industries is like the dress code being so casual because it's really like it's really hard to navigate if you don't do it.

Lisa Thompson: 36:48

Like if I go to a big meeting and I tell my mum I'm wearing my trainer, she's like what? Like it's weird and like when I did a talk at an IPA event and it was in this really hard to find building and basically the way that everyone got there was they followed like the agagas gazelles, so like there is almost like a uniform to like advertising. So it's like weird things that happen and I think sometimes in corporate the smf will always say that I think they said the same thing about medicine is that sometimes the challenges in those industries are a bit simpler because it's about getting people in, but actually when you start your job so sarah, who's the ceo, gave me this anecdote as if you train to be a doctor, once you get into a hospital you put on your white coat or you put on your uniform and that's in, whereas creative industries are a bit different, but I think the more corporate sectors are ahead of us they are now.

Chris Norton: 37:38

But when I, when I started out, when I was working down in london in pr, I worked for an agency called harvard um, which is obviously it was related to the family that set up harvard university um, um and um, everybody there when I got there was pretty much wearing well, some were wearing suits. This is back in the day um, this was like 1999, 2000 or something. Everyone was wearing suits and then it became shirt, shirt and tie and then we started working with Glaxo and Glaxo were really really Glaxo, gsk were really the cool, um, great marketing department, because they were one of the obviously they're an American, well, american business, I believe and they had, um, yeah, all the marketing guys were all casual and that was really different. Like, and then, and then it slowly filtered through and now, like you'd be weird if you turned up to work in a suit, maybe to a pitch.

Chris Norton: 38:26

You might be a bit smarter. But I do take your point, lisa. Like, casual wear. It's how to get the balance of smart casual, smart casual and trying to mirror it, because you used to have a thing where you had to mirror clients. But I've heard of people, I've heard of girls, right, they've told me stories of where people other girls, other women, not just men have said to one of the girl you'll have to get dressed up for this meeting as in like flaunt what you've got, and I just I wouldn't dare say anything like that.

Lisa Thompson: 38:52

You know what I mean well, it's also like uh, like it is weird because I think clients have got more casual, but it's like I used to go to client meetings and we dress smart. We had one client who was like really, really smart, but like this is one thing that is also like a bit of a tip that people think is like a bit trivial, but like no one knows what smart casual means. And also like being up North, smart casual is very different to like down South. Like like you dress up, don't you? Like you're just a bit more dressy. I remember Jess Glynn trying to claim that she was working class and being annoyed that she got kicked out of Sexy Fish for wearing like trackies, and everyone on Twitter, like from the North, was like no, no, no, we would not go to a fancy restaurant wearing that.

Lisa Thompson: 39:34

But another really simple tip is to tell people like what your dress code is and describe it. Don't use smart casual. So we always put on our phones. Like in the office the girls will wear like a dress and trainers or jeans and like stuff. The boys tend to wear jeans and a shirt or jeans and a t-shirt like this is what we're like, and I think that's really important because I think sometimes if you, if you know how these industries dress, and you go to an interview and you feel like you've got it right, you're automatically in. But there's still people whose moms and dads will be like wear a suit and you'll have people come and you'll see everyone really casual and you'll see them go. Oh God, I feel a bit like uncomfortable.

Lisa Thompson: 40:15

So I think it's like telling people like the weird quirks of our industry. It's like telling people like the weird quirks of our industry. We had one of our apprentices from last year who's amazing, has just been shortlisted at an awards do for Apprentice of the Year, and it basically turned out he'd been really really panicking about like having to buy his ticket. That he'd seen on the website was an amount of money and we all realized that we never tell people that these things are free. So we like have people like panicking and he was almost wasn't excited that he'd been nominated for this really amazing award. So I think another another tip is like tell people the weird quirks of our industry, even through the language you like use. Like I managed an apprentice a few years ago and after like eight weeks, like two weeks, and he turned to me and he was really exacerbated and he's like what even is a deck.

Lisa Thompson: 41:03

Like we kept telling him to do a deck and no one had told him that it was like powerpoint things. We all just thought deck was the word. So yeah, it's really important like things like clothes and stuff.

Will Ockenden: 41:11

But you're right, like women get told to like wear a certain thing, like it's like it's really bad and also you should just wear stuff you feel comfortable in so you're saying, um, what I'm hearing here is, you know the kind of the nuances and the quirks of the industry, including the fact that there's a slightly confusing, casual, not casual dress code that naturally favors the insiders, ie the, the middle class people, the people that have benefited from nepotism, the people that understand that industry, and when an outsider, ie somebody from a working class background, potentially comes into that it's, it's completely opaque and confusing and they've got no way of finding out what's right and what's wrong yeah and like yeah, it's just it's.

Lisa Thompson: 41:52

It's like weird, isn't it? And I think we forget how weird our industry is. Like I would say my boyfriend works in the nhs and I was telling him yesterday I'd been invited on a jolly and he was like that's ridiculous that you get invited to that. Like it's so weird. Like he finds it weird. Like if I go out on a lunch at lunchtime and we like have a drink, he's like. I remember once I'd like been out at lunch and I texted him a picture of like a cocktail and he was like what did your boss say about that? And I was like my boss told me to crack on and have a nice friday, like for everyone else. It's really weird. And so you need to like tell people how weird it is so they feel like comfortable and don't worry about stuff you feel?

Chris Norton: 42:27

like they can fit in yeah I think that's what rob mayhew's been doing on linkedin and tiktok. He's been teaching the crazy inside world because, like you watch his videos and they're like telling gen z about client drinks back in the day and it's like, yeah, so we used to take out clients and just get leathered with them, um, and now you're like you, yeah, probably you need to be careful around. You know, there's certain things that we did and and you you can't do now.

Lisa Thompson: 42:53

I suppose and it's like weird things like going to restaurants, like I sometimes go to restaurants and still have to like google things like I'm well into food and get into it, but I will go and just Google and check it. I don't know if Jed has talked about him going on his first client meeting. He lets me use this story about him saying that Dauphin was potatoes wrong because he never saw it. Actually, sometimes you're going to these places where you would never have ever gone to in your like normal life and and like do that.

Lisa Thompson: 43:21

So I think it's like weird things like that. I love the rob mayhew one where he's like telling gen z about fridays in the office like I miss fridays in the office. I miss when you'd had a thursday night out and everyone was together and it was fun and you went to the pub like I kind of I kind of want to like rally that after our christmas party we all should come into the office next day for the fun.

Chris Norton: 43:41

Yeah, um, so this, this, I mean I could go on and on and on about that like my first year journey to the oxo tower, when I looked at the menu and I was like what is all? What are all these things on the menu? Talking, talking about class, it was all in french and it was like michelin star and even like the poshest of middle class people that I was with, who'd been to lots of fancy restaurants. He had to ask the, the, when you have to ask the waiter what things are on the menu, because it's that it's all um, that's when you know it's um. That's when I did feel very um, class, um, what's the word judged, if you know, I mean you just I didn't dare ask, like, like you just said, with the dolphin while potatoes, and I could. We could go on about that for ages. How did he?

Lisa Thompson: 44:26

pronounce that it wasn't me it was jed's story, but he said he pronounced it dolphin nurse potatoes okay, and he says he remembers having this moment where he said it and everyone looked at him. I'm sure he doesn't mind me sharing this. He's told this story to a lot of people but he like that's one of the things he that the. It sounds like quite funny when you tell the story, but it's like one of the things where he first realized, feeling like yeah yeah, yeah, yeah and and that's like quite a soft one where there's like worse ones that you've heard from other people, like on our whatsapp group.

Lisa Thompson: 44:58

Someone said that she went out for some drinks and she poured the wine, and she poured the wine up to the top of the glass because, like it's normal and like the, the people she was with were a bit judgy about it, or like they made like judgy comments about the drink order yeah, I went to the um.

Chris Norton: 45:15

It was the pr week awards and then it was a big do and the table and it was the first time I'd ever been on a table with I mean, I've been on a table with thing you know several sets of um cutlery, but I think I had four. What? What glasses? Like wine glasses, I had no clue what to do. The water glass, the wine glass, the white wine glass, the red wine glass there were so many glasses. It was one of the hotels on mayfair and again I just felt totally fish out of water. I knew to go out in that's what I always remember from the outside in, but other than that I didn't know which glass to use. I couldn't completely understand that. It's all these etiquettes that you just if you haven't been, yeah, yeah, and you're right.

Will Ockenden: 45:54

These seem like insignificant points, but really they're not, are they? You know it's, um, it's, it's, you know, collectively, it becomes hugely elite and hugely intimidating, and and that comes back to that retention idea, you know, if you, you are what you know, if you are from a working class background, you finally get this job in a big ad agency and you're constantly made to feel like an alien in that scenario. It's not going to last, is it? And that's that's the issue I think.

Chris Norton: 46:18

I think that I think the wine thing's a little bit pretentious, because we drink out of a jam jar, really wouldn't? We don't matter what living size it is, um, so, anyway, today's show is. The theme of the show is always about fuck-ups and we haven't asked you about yours yet. So, um, it's about marketing fuck-ups and what people have learned from them, because the our listeners like to hear where people have made a mistake and what they did wrong, because they like to have a little giggle and what they've learned from it. And, um, you sent one through to us, didn't you? Lisa, do you want to tell us a bit about that?

Lisa Thompson: 46:48

yeah, so I my attention to detail is not good. Um, it's the thing that has resulted in all of my mistakes. There was one I remember the first time I'd ever booked an out of home campaign and I'd just not check the dates that the media owner had sent to me and I'd like the out of home campaign was all for an event, so it like um, so it was really important, it was live on a certain date and I just completely booked the wrong dates and luckily I kind of got away with it because the media owner helped me out. And so that's a tip be, be nice, like, have relationships, because there'll be a time when you need it. What other like?

Chris Norton: 47:29

mistake, so you, you're sorry, you're out of home.

Lisa Thompson: 47:32

Advert appeared before it happened so it was like booked for, like. It was like there was events that were happening. There was two events that we were supporting um, right where, where were they?

Lisa Thompson: 47:43

one was in one was in london and one was in manchester. They were. It was when we were working um for the pbc and they and it was for Asian Network and there was two Mellors. So we were buying out of home around it about the coverage and when they'd, when we got the out of home plan, all of the out of home had been booked in two cities but for the same dates and I remember having a stomach drop moment where I looked at it and was like I'd signed it off and was like, oh shit, it's not on the right dates.

Lisa Thompson: 48:19

So things I've learned is always check your schedules or, if you're not very good at it, get someone else to check it. But also, actually it was completely fine. I actually think it ended up being really beneficial because the media owner sort of does that like value and was able to make it work and so always have good relationships with the people that you work with, trying to think, if I've done like any other, like I. Usually also other mistakes come from like not learning how to like keep my gob shut, like talking about stuff in like the wrong place.

Lisa Thompson: 48:52

So can't relate to that at all I also can't hide my face, um, so I think there's been lots of mistakes where I've said the wrong thing to the wrong people and I think that actually I think the lesson from that is where you say the wrong thing to the wrong people and it gets back to people is actually think about who your people are at work. Like there will be times where you need to have a run and like talk about something, but find people who you can trust with that information, like who can do it, um, and like this isn't a fuck up, because I actually don't think it's bad to cry at work. Like I think sometimes you're a bit emotional, um, but I, quite early on in my career, would just not ask for help and would get to, would get to a state where I was just in such tears. I'd just be like burst into tears and like when I cry, like I'm red for like hours, like I'm not like a pretty crier and like everyone would know that you'd been crying and like the outcome was always why didn't you say you were struggling?

Lisa Thompson: 49:50

And so I think that's the other thing like don't be scared of being. Let people tell you not to be emotional, because it's something we only ever tell women to do and be emotional like it makes you better at your job, but like learn to ask for help. Um, one of the times I did very spectacularly um burst into tears. I was working on something and we had we were working. It was when we were working on a picture we had classical music on because it was a classical music brand realized classical music does not sit well with me, like it stresses me out, like you know how some people feel really calming, like it doesn't work. So also don't listen to classical music and stressed out by classical music, I don't know.

Lisa Thompson: 50:30

It's like a bit intense, like um. And then I think, linking to the attention to detail point, there's been there was a time where I was going to like a meeting in london and like had like completely got the time train wrong that I was supposed to get to and then realized I was late and then had a real panic and be like I'm really sorry, you're gonna have to buy another plane ticket, um, but I think, like all of I always say this to people I actually think when you make those big mistakes it's really important because you learn not to do it again.

Chris Norton: 51:00

So it's actually really good to make mistakes.

Lisa Thompson: 51:02

Exactly. If you've made an error with something like a schedule, you'll always check it Like if you're perfect or brilliant all the time. You don't like learn anything from it?

Chris Norton: 51:14

Nobody would be, though I had somebody. I had a guest recently. They were quite a big guest and they were going to come on the show, and then she replied to me and said I've never made a mistake at work and I was like you definitely have.

Will Ockenden: 51:25

You're not trying hard enough. If you don't make mistakes, are you? You're not pushing hard enough.

Lisa Thompson: 51:34

No pushing hard enough. No, who's never made a mistake like and also like, even if you've not made like a technical mistake, like I like get things wrong all the time. The amount of time I'm a big overthinker, the amount of times I'm like lying awake at half three thinking I've like said the wrong thing or I've done something well. Like people like, what I found hard with the question is like not like none of them. Like I feel like all of the mistakes have been like very like everyday mistakes. Like they're not, like there's not been anything like almost like with that. Oh, the other cat.

Lisa Thompson: 51:59

It's not a mistake, but I did once fall over in a pitch, um so please elaborate bad, bad, can't explain this.

Chris Norton: 52:07

What did you do?

Lisa Thompson: 52:08

we were pitching and we're pitching for a fashion brand and I bought these like shoes from there that had a heel on and I we were stood up presenting and we were in like a kind of quite a long room and I'd like I'd not got my space and I'd like stepped back and somehow got into the wall and then like didn't like on the floor but like properly went um and the guy who had the very lovely guy who we were pitching to was like can we just stop, are you okay? And in my head I was like I don't want you to stop, I want you to pretend you've never seen me fall over and did you seriously continue from the ground?

Lisa Thompson: 52:44

so I like got back up. I was kind of like half on the ground. I got back up and I was like, doing so, the lesson there is, like sometimes you only wear a heel if you're going to be sat down to present. Like it doesn't work well if you're standing.

Chris Norton: 52:56

So yeah, that was Did you win the pitch Did you win the pitch, you didn't win the pitch.

Lisa Thompson: 53:00

I don't think it was. I thought you might have won. Unless there's really not like clumsy people, which is to don't like clumsy people. I'm very clumsy, so it was right.

Will Ockenden: 53:13

But I did spectacularly deck it in a pitch, stack it, yeah. So a whole menagerie of fuck-ups there yeah.

Will Ockenden: 53:17

So, yeah, that was good, but you're right, you've got to be making mistakes to learn, haven't you? And that's the whole kind of purpose of this show. So people will be listening to this and thinking look, this rings true. This is an issue I need to address. Where do people connect with you? How can they find out more about common people? And is, how does it? How does it manifest itself? Is there? There's a WhatsApp group? Is there? Is there a website as well? There's a t-shirt.

Lisa Thompson: 53:42

There's a t-shirt, so we have a LinkedIn and an Instagram profile. We have a newsletter, which is the sub stack is common people like me, so there's a newsletter that goes out monthly which will share writing on it will um, which will will share like job opportunities. So sign up for the newsletter and the whatsapp group. We try and make it so it's people who have lived experience of it. But follow us on linkedin, follow us on instagram and we do come in. We have like training decks that we've pulled together. If your business is serious about it and would like to donate to the Common People Fund, we will come in and we will come in and do that.

Lisa Thompson: 54:20

The other thing is other resources that are amazing is Commercial Break, an amazing organization. James Hillhouse is one of the loveliest men. If you want to kind of get the audit done, have a chat with him. The Social Mobility Foundation are a really good, are a really good resource as well. So they have their index and then the other kind of things. If you're really interested in it.

Lisa Thompson: 54:47

The Class Ceiling is a brilliant book by um, sam friedman and daniel lauren, dan laurenson, um, and just like, yeah, there's, there's also really it's kind of not specifically creative industries. But there's a really good, brilliant book by a guy called hashi muhammad, who is a barrister who um taught. The book is called people like me or People Like Us, but he talks about how, all of the systematic things in it and if you Google him, he's appeared on loads of podcasts. So yeah, common People LinkedIn, common People Instagram sign up to our newsletter and if you want to chat to any of them, drop me a LinkedIn or drop me an Instagram message or drop me a note and we are more than happy to chat.

Will Ockenden: 55:37

Fantastic.

Chris Norton: 55:39

And you've been on this show now, lisa. You've given your views of the world and you've told us your biggest fuck-ups, and if you were us, who would be the next guest that you would have on this show that we should get on here and question about their marketing mistakes? Oh, this is always my favorite bit, because no one's got a set answer for this and they have to really think about it.

Lisa Thompson: 56:01

we've got loads of amazing people in the common people community who are brilliant. There's an. Actually I tell you who it is. There is an amazing um lady um called emma jackson, who is part of the common people group, but I I tell you who it is. There is an amazing lady called Emma Jackson who is part of the Common People group, but I, so I kind of got to know her. I think I got to know through that, but she is a producer. So you know the really cool advert with the guy from Footloose, the EE advert where the land are playing in the living room. What's the name of the actor? The Footloose guy, Kevin?

Chris Norton: 56:35

Bacon, kevin Bacon. Yeah, seven Steps of Kevin Bacon, or whatever it is.

Lisa Thompson: 56:41

So she is a producer and has done a lot kind of within advertising and marketing. So she does jobs and I think she's really cool and really inspiring and has an opinion.

Chris Norton: 56:52

Thanks a lot for coming on the show, lisa. She does jobs and I think she's really cool and really is inspiring and has an opinion. Thanks a lot for coming on the show, lisa. That was fascinating to chat about, yeah, all the different bits and pieces of how people can become more inclusive. It's been an interesting chat, lovely to meet somebody else from up north as well, and I love I love all the issues because it's just brought, taking me back to starting my own career and I'm sure a lot of people have got a lot out of it. So I'd just like to say a personal thank you for everything and your time today.

Lisa Thompson: 57:17

Thanks for having me and letting me bang on about class diversity for an hour.