Chris Norton: 0:04

Welcome to Engaging Marketing Mistakes, the podcast that enables you to hit record revenue and double your marketing ROI by learning from the glorious mistakes of the world's top marketers. I'm Chris Norton and, together with my co-host, will Ockenden, we've run Prohibition, an award-winning PR agency, for more than 14 years, helping marketers just like you grow their brands. Today, we're joined by Sarah Townsend, a highly successful freelance copywriter, author and editor. In this episode, we're going to uncover how strategic copywriting can be the key to business success and why every business needs a solid copy strategy. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's hear how you can transform your business with better copy. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sarah Townsend: 0:57

Thank you, it's good to meet you both Thanks for joining us.

Chris Norton: 1:01

I know we've just talked a little bit about your two books, which we're going to mention in this interview today, but what the reason why I got you on the show? Initially, I heard you on a couple of other podcasts and I thought you'd be a great person to have on this show because of your candid nature and the fact that you are very um open and you talk about your mishaps, mistakes and things like that. Do you want to tell us a little bit how you got started in marketing, then? Sarah?

Sarah Townsend: 1:27

Yeah, so I was working for a financial services company dealing with mortgages. Their marketing department relocated to Cheltenham, near where I lived, and I just always fancied working in marketing. It felt like quite a nice, glossy, exciting career to have. I didn't have a marketing degree, it just felt like something I was interested in. So I started working for their marketing department, worked my way up to become their publications controller, which meant being in charge of all their internal and external magazines and publishing.

Sarah Townsend: 2:02

And then three years in they decided to make a third of their marketing department redundant, and this was late 90s by then or mid 90s, and they were offering really sexy redundancy packages. So I thought, okay, I'm going to go for it. So I spoke to the company that I was using as my publishing company for the company magazine and they offered me a job. I left Eagle Star on the Friday and I started at Specialist, the publishing company, on the Monday, and with hindsight I would have taken a bit of a sabbatical or at least a long weekend. But yeah, so that's kind of how I got into the marketing side of things.

Chris Norton: 2:46

So you just threw yourself straight into freelancing from straight from your job.

Sarah Townsend: 2:51

So when I was working at the magazine publishing company, I became pregnant and I was working down in Bristol and living in Gloucester still am living in Gloucester. I just didn't want to do a commute with a baby in nursery in Gloucester. It just didn't feel like what I wanted to do. So I decided then was a really good opportunity to go freelance. I didn't know anybody who was freelance. There was barely any internet back then, so there weren't online communities or hashtags you could follow on Twitter because there was no social media and yeah. So it was a bit of a bit of a massive leap, but I did it. So 1999, I found myself with a new baby and a new business.

Will Ockenden: 3:36

And what is it about copywriting? And if you look at all the different kind of disciplines of marketing, what is it about copywriting that grabbed you and made you want to kind of pursue that as a freelance direction?

Sarah Townsend: 3:47

I think, something that Chris touched on. I'm quite a candid, quite a direct speaker and I like the fact that I can actually use that in my job. So instead of there's too much obfuscation in ironically using a big, fancy word to describe it, there's too much waffle rambling, too much business speak jargon, all those things that stop people getting to the point in business. But ultimately, all your readers, all your audience, are busy and it's important to respect their time, get to the point, tell them what you need to tell them and guide them to take action. So the clearer you can be in your copywriting, I would say I very much specialize in direct, human copy, so very much thinking about the audience always being one person. You're always having a conversation with your audience rather than addressing the masses and using a bit of a scattergun approach, which may or may not work. You're thinking really carefully about who your audience is, how you use their language to connect with them and to build and grow genuine connections.

Will Ockenden: 5:00

So that idea of simplicity I find quite interesting. I think a lot of us. When we're copywriting, certainly when you're starting your career, the temptation is to kind of show how sophisticated you are and use a lot of purple prose and really kind of overwrite. Are you saying sort of you know whatever sector you're in? Keeping it as simple as possible is one of the ways to go.

Sarah Townsend: 5:21

It's not always appropriate for every sector and every market, but all the clients I work with that is the approach they want to take. I imagine there are certain, perhaps more academic sectors that perhaps don't want to go down a plain English, clear, concise kind of route. They wouldn't be my ideal customer. They wouldn't be necessarily a fit with my business because human direct is very much my approach. So I didn't go to university, I chose not to. I could have done but I chose not to, and I think as a result I was actually writing about this because I was writing myself a case study yesterday because I've just done some more work with another university.

Sarah Townsend: 6:04

I've done lots of further education, higher education over my 25-year freelance career and I think the reason they appreciated working with me is because when you do learn that academic style of writing, you're writing to satisfy assessment criteria. You're writing to a particular word count. For the sake of it being a word count, you might have to write 5,000 words on a particular subject or an essay debating a topic. When you're copywriting, you've always got to be aware of how busy your audience is. You need to focus on what your audience needs to hear, not what you want to tell them. That's the mistake that too many people make. I've forgotten what the original question was.

Chris Norton: 6:53

I like to know it's a good response.

Sarah Townsend: 6:56

Yes, so I never. In a nutshell, I never learned to do that long winded rambling, that academic style of writing, that kind of perhaps sometimes overcomplicates things and people who come particularly. I think if you came into a marketing environment fresh out of university with a degree, you might struggle, because copywriting for a human audience is so different to writing to satisfy assessment criteria and I don't know how to do that. So for me, I don't know anything other than keeping it simple.

Chris Norton: 7:30

So keeping it simple is probably why you're so loving on Twitter. Like I'm getting the feeling Twitter is your platform of choice and some of the stuff that you share on there is brilliant. By the way, it made me laugh. I like the one that said always on there is brilliant, by the way.

Will Ockenden: 7:45

It made me laugh.

Chris Norton: 7:45

I like the one that said always open, and then you just said closed. It's just really. It made me laugh and I've been following you for a while now since I saw you on something else. I heard you on a different podcast and I thought you'd make a great guest for the show. So you never went to university. Obviously, we're from a PR and social media background, but traditionally PR trained I am, so I did public relations at a degree level and I did marketing at A-level as well, so I was always going into this area and I taught later on in university.

Chris Norton: 8:20

I taught public relations at university myself to give something back to the industry and one of the key things that we always say in PR is brevity. Is your friend like, if you can do?

Chris Norton: 8:29

it as least amount of words as possible. Now, from your side of things it's. I love working with copywriters because they're slightly different to how PR people. I mean it is a different sort of craft, isn't it? Because you're you crafting more, do you do like like ads and out of home stuff? Then Would you do that? What sort of campaigns can you give as examples that you've done, that you may have?

Sarah Townsend: 8:50

heard of. No, there won't be any, because most of my clients it's more. I have worked for some higher profile names. The example of the podcast I listened to you've reeled off a load of household names. That's not really my experience and it will be things like maybe working on an impact report that has to get engagement from stakeholders. So it's less campaigns and ad copy and more marketing and comms.

Sarah Townsend: 9:19

So, on the side of raising awareness, helping the reader self-identify with the problem perhaps that they're facing and something they need to solve, perhaps it's keeping them awake at night, taking up too much time and effort, and it's not something that is their natural skill set. So I tend to do more business to business rather than business to consumer. But, as I often say, it's all human to human, because what a lot of people forget is they think their audience is the C-suite, it's the CFO, it's the CMO, it's the marketing department. That's not your audience. Your audience is the one person who works in that department and even if that is the CEO of a business, they're still a human. They're still a busy person. In fact, they're probably busier than other people, or they often are. But just having that constant awareness that your copy is a direct conversation. Shirley Polikoff, legendary ad woman, once said copy is a direct conversation with the consumer.

Will Ockenden: 10:35

I think people will be listening to this thinking. I want to break down the art and the science of copywriting. So talk us through your process to approaching a new brief. So you know you talked about this, the idea that it's a direct conversation. You've got to understand what the um readers challenges or problems are. So have you got a kind of a process? You would approach a new brief and you want to kind of break that down step by step for us?

Sarah Townsend: 11:01

um, do I have a process? I've been doing this for so long that it's. If I have a process, which I probably do because I've been doing it for 25 years. It is not set in stone, it's not something that is outlined or written down. It's a lot of it is intuitive, which is no, no help to your audience whatsoever, but it's very much going through. What are the problems that the client solves for their clients? What are the things that are addressed by their service?

Sarah Townsend: 11:36

So, for example, I've just written a LinkedIn profile, a leaflet and a website for a mental health trainer and therapist. So she has very high profile clients, big names that you would have heard of but I can't mention, and for her it's vital that she shares her credibility and capability, but not necessarily, for example, in the about page on a website. Too many independent, individual, freelance or business owners will say, oh, these are my qualifications, I trained under XYZ and I have this experience and the mistake there is that your about page, yes, that information needs to come across, but it's not hanging on. That information. Even your about page on your website needs to be about your client and what they need to hear, not what you want to tell them. So if I'm putting in qualifications and experience on an about page, for example, it's kind of a secondary thing.

Sarah Townsend: 12:47

On an about page, for example, it's kind of a secondary thing. The main thing is talking about the experience in a way that gives the client, the reader, the target audience, a strong sense of how their life can be when they're working with this person. Like, how does that person solve their problems, how do they make their life easier, save them time, streamline a process, take a pressure or a stress off their brain and handle it, be a safe pair of hands for whatever it is. So everything is very much focused on what the reader needs to hear and it's clear, concise, compelling and convincing language which is going to enable that person who's reading to go okay. So I've self-identified, I know this person is talking directly to me, I understand and I feel reassured of their credibility, capability to solve my problem, and they've made it really clear what action they want me to take to take the next step to working with them.

Will Ockenden: 14:27

On that point. So you know the, the call to action. I suppose you'd call it in marketing terms, I mean, ultimately, all copy has got to achieve a purpose, hasn't it? Whether that's to sell, whether that's to book an appointment, whether that's to, you know, to whatever it might be. So talk to us about calls to action. Then I think some people might be thinking okay, I need lots and lots of calls to action all the way throughout it. Some people might say one at the very end. You know what's right and how do we kind of compel our audience into some kind of action that benefits us commercially?

Sarah Townsend: 14:57

okay. First of all, it's probably worth mentioning that, for people who do differentiate between copy and content, the difference with the copy is that you're intending to inspire an action. Content can be just to inform, but even content in terms of blog posts etc. Should have some form of call to action built in. With a call to action on, for example, on a webpage, it may be down to the length of the page, in which case you'd have multiple buttons or calls to action built into the copy at various chunks. So when the reader has had a chance to read and digest a particular point and you've kind of gone, okay, well, maybe they're a really busy person and they just want to just get on with it and take the next step and book that free consultation or discovery call or whatever you want to call it. So you make it really clear there with a call to action button or inbuilt text, and then you might put a little bit more supplementary text that will give them some more detail and more depth.

Sarah Townsend: 16:03

Again, with website copy, it's really important to point out that the mistake most people make is putting too much on their website, and it's unnecessary, because if you put everything on your website, you've got no reason to entice that person to call you or to get in touch. And that's when, when you make those human connections, when you have that first call, that first email, that's when you have the opportunity to personalize and to really go in there and start making those connections. That are where the magic happens. After all, they say that in sales as well don't they like?

Chris Norton: 16:38

when you like. Pr people are known for doing this, overfilling every deck with all the information, loads of bullet points, because we like to list everything out and give you all the information so you know exactly what. And actually a salesperson will say um, you want them to, you want them to give them, but enough to want more, because sometimes you can talk yourself out of the sale yeah, it's that paradox of choice thing, isn't it?

Sarah Townsend: 17:01

if you give people too many options, the same. Just taking it back to your point about how you do a call to action. Well, and and and. Different projects, different jobs do require different thought, but generally speaking, I always say don't um, give people more than one choice between two options. So, rather than saying, oh, you can find me here, follow me on LinkedIn, you can phone me or email me or you can click this link to access my scheduler so you can book a discovery call. It's too much.

Sarah Townsend: 17:34

So make it really clear what works for you, because if you're, for example, it's like make it really clear what works for you, because if you're, for example, I'm not somebody, I'm ADHD and I don't like being disrupted during my day, when I'm working, when I'm in focus mode, by a phone call. That's the worst thing for me. So my phone's always on, do not disturb. If somebody wants to talk to me, they book a discovery call. So then I know that I've scheduled my day. I always schedule my day, so I start work first thing in the morning and I do my head down, I do my focus writing, hopefully get into a bit of a hyper focus flow and get shed loads done and then by kind of round about 3pm I'm ready to talk to other people. So people book slots in the afternoon and then that kind of enlivens me and that's great.

Sarah Townsend: 18:21

So if you're a business owner like many of my clients are companies of one, whatever you want to call it, individual business owners they would benefit from knowing when they are at their most productive and building their calls to action around what works for their clients but it also works for them. It's the best way of running an efficient business. So, for example, this is a little bit more of a freelance tip than marketing, but I always use my out of office 24 seven, whether I'm on holiday or not, and I say something along the lines if I check my emails just a couple of times a day, because I do my best work when I'm undistracted by emails and notifications and as a result, you get that same level of focus when you choose to work with me. So it's kind of making it into a benefit giving people, managing people's expectations and confirming that you've received that email. So it's that kind of thing. The calls to action have to work for the business and they have to work for the target audience.

Will Ockenden: 19:23

Just digging into that a bit more and I suspect the answer to this will be it depends, but is there certain phrases or words that are kind of a proven or anecdotally you found that are great at compelling readers into action there probably is science behind this.

Sarah Townsend: 19:42

Um, I'm not prepared, with a good enough answer to to um to give like unequivocal, unequivocal advice on that. Really, I think it's more stuff that's going to inspire. So, like sign me up. So if you have a button, for example, read more, sign me up. So if it has, if it starts with a verb, it's an action rather than click for more information about my course, click for more information about my course. So if it's yeah, well, I mean, click is still a verb. Yeah, but basically, thinking about what is the specific action you want them to take, say it in as few words as possible. I just worked on a website for a business where they had a 36 word call to action and it was and it wasn't working for them at all. So I just paired it right back, really thought about what they needed and simplified it and yeah, I like the idea of two choices, and you're right.

Will Ockenden: 20:45

I suppose it's browsing the aisles in Aldi versus Waitrose, isn't it, when there's 20 different types of olives versus two types of olives, and it's a lot less time time consuming and stressful in Aldi when you can choose the options.

Will Ockenden: 21:02

Some choice is good, but too much choice is bad. That's what the science says, isn't it? You mentioned something earlier that I thought might be quite amusing to dig into, and Chris and I have got some very strong views on this. You mentioned about copywriting cliches, and I know that kind of certain sectors are terrible for this, so marketing notoriously is awful for cliches.

Will Ockenden: 21:22

And you know IT is as well, and have you kind of come across certain sectors that are just awful for copywriting cliches, and have you got any particular sort of villain words or phrases that you come across?

Chris Norton: 21:34

Sarah. What you're saying is have you got any? What you're saying is have you got any industry leading solutions?

Sarah Townsend: 21:40

I was just gonna say you beat me to it. I was just gonna say solutions.

Will Ockenden: 21:43

Yeah, I mean bullshit, bingo, isn't it?

Sarah Townsend: 21:46

yeah, yeah, it's an absolute um. It's an absolute no-no like um. You know, I could have called my business Townsend Marketing Solutions, but I didn't. So, yeah, too many businesses. They'll say oh, we leverage. Leverage is a really good one. We leverage best in class technology to deliver world class solutions. It's that stuff that, actually, if you stop for a moment and and say, well, what does this actually mean? This isn't telling your readers anything. You have to get specific and really specific about what are the pains you're solving, how you're solving them. Don't just use this vague waffly. There's so much filler out there as well.

Will Ockenden: 22:32

Um and I should we avoid these cliches all together. You know cutting edge is it just yeah? Should we just avoid them and find different ways to say it?

Sarah Townsend: 22:41

cutting edge can be a helpful descriptor, but it's it's better to get really specific. If you're, if you're doing a kind of a list of bullet points, you might say cutting edge, you know cutting edge technology, like I've just done some work for a university and there they had a kind of summary list of the reasons why people should study on this course and it was like cutting edge operating theatre technology, that that that does the job. But when you're relying solely on cliches, you're never going to really make those connections with your reader, and unless you're to a certain degree reflecting their language. Because by doing that, by keeping it real and using real language, real people really use you are You're If you're thinking, oh, I need to like you say it's almost like face with a blank page.

Sarah Townsend: 23:38

Too many marketers become like apprentice candidates and start saying oh you know, even those are the little calls to action. While we're talking about calls to action, please do not hesitate to contact myself should you require any further information, like who speaks like that. Just say get in touch if there's anything I can help with or if you've got any questions. I'm here to help, like using that human language, it's. It shouldn't be the exception, but it is. We don't have the bandwidth for it, do we no, but it's refreshing.

Sarah Townsend: 24:12

You know, when you come across the breath, see what you did there yeah, it took a while based on it.

Will Ockenden: 24:18

I love the idea of you know kind of um striking off these cliches and and talking how people talk. I mean, I suppose that that to that leads me to my next question, which is kind of brand tone of voice. Now, obviously different brands will talk in different ways. Now is that another intuitive um thing, the way you approach a brief or do. Would you know how should a marketer or somebody copywriting kind of get it right in terms of tone of voice? Because I know there's a danger in being too prescriptive, isn't there in terms of following it to the letter?

Sarah Townsend: 24:49

yeah, yeah that side of it that all comes down to how well the client knows their audience, and sometimes it can involve doing a bit of research into the voice of their customer. Even if it's just asking clients that you work with the most to describe why they work with you in three short sentences, that can sometimes give you an insight that reflects things that you hadn't thought. I did that when I very first started my freelance business. No, it must have been some time in, otherwise I wouldn't have had any clients, would I? So it must have been maybe a few years in and I thought people were working with me because I was great at spelling.

Sarah Townsend: 25:43

I was doing a lot of proofreading at the time and I thought that they'd think, oh, sarah's great at spelling and the attention to detail. And they'd come back and say Sarah is so much fun to work with, she makes my life so much easier, she saves me time and I know she's a safe pair of hands and it would be those kinds of things and I'd be like, oh, okay, so I wasn't aware that that was necessarily what people thought about working with me. So getting that even digging into testimonials, google reviews, wherever reviews show up online for a business that will really help give me an insight into a the language that their clients use and how I can perhaps incorporate some of that in what I'm writing so they can go oh, wow, it's quite literally. Wow, this person is speaking my language. You are quite literally doing that because you're using the phrases that resonate with that target audience.

Will Ockenden: 26:40

Because it works that's an interesting point. So, um, I think a lot of people would approach tone of voice from how we, you know how we, as the brand, want to sound but you're saying that's the wrong approach. Really we should be talking in how our customers potentially talk. Or is it a melding of the two?

Sarah Townsend: 26:56

It depends how well aligned your customers currently are with what you want your brand to be. So you might find your. I might work with a business who have got a really strong client base, but they want to elevate themselves, to compete perhaps in a different market or a more higher value market, so they might want to move away from that particular client base, in which case it would be hopeless, it would be a pointless exercise and it probably would need to be driven by the brand. And you're right, most brands will say, okay, we want to come across as and, in all honesty, most of the time it's, we want to come across as knowledgeable and human and friendly, and it will be the same things every time. So trying to interrogate those words and go the next level down what, what really are the things that make you different? What really does make you stand out? Because it's, it's not good enough to say quality, great customer service. We are passionate about xyz. That's another band word. Passionate about xyz. It's such a cliche, it's everyone's passionate, aren't they?

Will Ockenden: 28:16

and everyone's delighted as well when, in a statement in the press, we're delighted to announce we've just been awarded.

Sarah Townsend: 28:22

Xyz, yeah, are you, though, like? Would you ever say, oh, yeah, I'm delighted? You know, with a friend in a bar would you actually say, yeah, god, I was delighted to receive this award? No, you wouldn't. So yeah, it does involve going deeper into what sort of feel and emotion you want to create around working with your dream clients. So if you want your dream client to feel a certain way, what does that actually represent in terms of brand values? This is another thing. Brand values they're just 95% of the time.

Sarah Townsend: 29:11

There is no real justification for including your mission, your vision and your values on your website. Clients don't really give a shit. What they want to know is how those things impact them. How does that In copywriting? We talk a lot about show, don't tell. So it's.

Sarah Townsend: 29:25

Rather than saying our mission is blah, blah, blah. It's okay to say you know X is on a mission to improve mental health for another 10,000 people in the UK in the next year. That's okay. Or this is at the heart of the business. But actually saying our mission blah, blah, blah.

Sarah Townsend: 29:47

Our vision is so self-important and self-serving and actually really most clients don't care about that. They care about themselves most. Most readers are selfish. We don't really care. We do xyz for our clients, okay, good for you.

Sarah Townsend: 30:03

But as soon as you start using me like if, if you start not using me, using you effectively being me. So if you're addressing your reader and saying we can help you deliver this, or we can help you save time, or I can help you save time, become more productive, take this stress away from you, provide great marketing insights or whatever it is as soon as you address me as you, then I know that you're talking directly to me. I don't want to know what you do for your clients because, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not a client yet. Even if it is the most compelling statement in the world, I'm not actually a client. So there's too much language that creates a barrier between you as a brand and your readers as a child audience. So it's about breaking down those barriers and getting to the golden nuggets of what is going to make them feel, what is going to make them you know, what's going to make you stand out in their eyes I love, I love the.

Chris Norton: 31:22

I love the copywriting hacks. There'll be like that, all the marketers and creatives that are listening to this show right, there'll be a lot of them listening to this thinking, oh my god, I've got to rewrite my entire website now to be um show, not tell.

Will Ockenden: 31:34

I just got to do it.

Chris Norton: 31:35

The thing is, when you finish a website, we all know every marketer out there will be going, you have to start all over again. You finish it. It's like that bridge, isn't it the bridge?

Will Ockenden: 31:44

in America, where they finish painting and they have to start again.

Chris Norton: 31:47

It's exactly like that. But what interested me about what you?

Chris Norton: 31:52

do as well is that you've you've written a book called survival skills for freelancers which you've sent me, which I've got here and you signed, by the way, very nice, you sent me and it covers like quite a few things. I mean, you've written two books and will's got the other one, which we'll come on to in a bit. Um, but this is all about survival skills for freelancers, so it's it's a it's a lot about debunking the myths of what it's like to become a freelancer. I actually found it quite cathartic, having been a freelancer for two or three years, and I thought I wish I'd had this when I started, because I was like you. I started out and there was basically I didn't really know where to start. I was learning on the job and then I became so busy and working on my own, figuring out what you like You've just explained this area that you figured out the time of day that works for you, because you're right in the mornings.

Chris Norton: 32:42

I'm completely the same. I like to do that as well. That's the creative way that creatives are. So I would I just ask what sort of do you want to talk through? When we talked about this, you said that this book is basically about all the mistakes you've made in freelance, so do you want?

Chris Norton: 33:00

to talk a little bit about the book and what made you write it.

Sarah Townsend: 33:03

Yeah. So I was somebody who a lot of people had said to me oh, you need to write a book about copywriting and there aren't enough books about copywriting written by women. I said I'm never going to write a book. Just don't. They say that everybody has a book in them.

Sarah Townsend: 33:17

I didn't believe I was that person. I spend my entire working day writing, so why would I want to spend all my spare time doing it too? But then I got to 2020 and I don't know what happened. Something clicked in my mind and I thought okay, it's 20 years since I started my own freelance business and I've got a lot to share that people can learn from my mistakes. So me not necessarily making outright mistakes, but doing things the really hard, slow, draggy, challenging way. That really does not need to be that difficult.

Sarah Townsend: 34:00

I was overcomplicating everything and, as I say, didn't have any communities or there were books out there on how to work for yourself, but they were all very much focused on the how to set up a business, the legal side, financial services, pension, all these kinds of things like the practical side and survival skills is a super practical book I'm a very practical person but it it very much focuses on the individual. It's's about how to avoid. I mean, the tagline is tried and tested tips to help you ace self-employment without burnout, so it's called survival skills, but it's actually really designed to help you thrive as a freelancer. And what you just said, chris, you wished you'd had it when you started out as a freelancer. Every single review on Amazon and there are like 440 odd says I wish I'd had this book when I started out as a freelancer. Every single review on Amazon and there are like 440 odd says I wish I'd had this book when I started out. But even though they don't, they've read it 10 years down the line. They've still learned from it.

Sarah Townsend: 35:03

And it's that feeling of wanting to support people with prioritizing their mental health and well-being, because people never talked about that until lockdown. And remember, this book came out in 2020, in June, which was in the middle of our very first lockdown and everybody was having to work from home. So I was interviewed on BBC radio. I was interviewed. I was on quoted in Forbes. I've been on 80 podcasts since I published that book. It's now sold in 28 countries and supported freelancers around the world to show self-employment news, boss. So it's all those things where you question yourself the self-doubt, the negative self-talk, the imposter syndrome, that feeling that you have to do absolutely everything for your business, all these little things that you think, oh God, you know the things you struggle with and you don't need to.

Chris Norton: 36:03

So if people, because you said you started it because you got made redundant, is that right?

Sarah Townsend: 36:08

I started freelancing because no, no, no, I started freelancing when I became pregnant with my daughter.

Chris Norton: 36:13

Sorry, I got it the wrong way around because yeah yeah.

Chris Norton: 36:17

So I was gonna say so if there is, because I I see regularly on linkedin people getting made redundant. I know the economy is picking up and stuff that supposedly, but I do see quite a lot of marketers being made redundant. And if they are being made redundant and they do have money and they want to start out in free, I would advise that they get this, because it is a good tipping, a good book to give you tips on what to do If you are going to start out tomorrow in a freelancing marketer. What's your sort of hot tip to make sure, or the one mistake you shouldn't make?

Sarah Townsend: 36:46

I suppose To pick just one thing, feels like having a favourite child, my gosh. What is the number one mistake people make? I think not. Well, one really practical one is making sure you've got savings behind you, because most people don't realize that when you first go self-employed, you have to pay tax. Yeah, I'm forgetting the expression. It's like payment on account.

Sarah Townsend: 37:21

That's it, payment on account and it catches people out. So you have to pay a proportion of your estimated turnover for the following year. And if you start freelance life thinking, oh, I'm going to instantly get a steady stream of work, you're probably going to be disappointed because even if you start your very first day, you're prospecting. You've got a list of 100 hot prospects that you want to approach. It takes time to turn those conversations and that interest into actual paid work. And even when you do, my payment terms are 10 days with 50% deposit up front. Most fresh into the game freelancers wouldn't have the confidence to ask for 50% deposit up front. It's something that you have to kind of accept that most people will pay you 30 days after you finish the work. So you have to have a physical financial buffer for peace of mind and in case anything goes wrong. And it just takes the pressure off because there's something about being desperate for work. It puts a weird vibe out into the universe and people can sense that desperation. You're never going to be doing your best work when you feel that, oh my God, I need this work. It's a very privileged position to be in. When you've been freelance as long as I have. It's very rare for me to feel that sense of I really need some more work this month, but actually starting out it can feel like a desperation.

Sarah Townsend: 38:58

So it's really helpful if you actually have a little list of projects that you want to do for marketing your own freelance business. So it's a new business, you want to get your name out there, you want to build your brand, grow awareness of what it is you do, what are the problems you solve for people, who is your target audience, who are you helping and how are you going to do it? So have those things in mind. Keep a list of all the ways in which you can market your business. And when things do go quiet or you finish a piece of work and you're waiting to be paid for it and you're like, oh, I don't know where the next job's going to be coming from, you should always be rotating those marketing tasks, thinking of your personal brand, thinking of putting yourself out there.

Sarah Townsend: 39:43

Even if you're super lucky and you book a month-long project up front, that month-long project is going to finish at some stage. So you need to book in a permanent slot in your weekly calendar for marketing your own business, for raising your profile on social, growing your following, getting yourself out there, because that is how your business will come. For marketing your own business. For raising your profile on social, growing your following, getting yourself out there, because that is how your business will come.

Will Ockenden: 40:07

I'm going to give your other book a little plug, actually, which is this one called the little book of confusables. Now, this is super entertaining and it's basically well. Do you want to explain what it is? And then I'll dive into a couple of the most common um mistakes, I suppose yeah, sure, I, I love this book to bits.

Sarah Townsend: 40:27

It's, it's, it's chunky and it really is little. So it's it's like super cute, but inside it is absolutely gorgeous, like it's typographically gorgeous. So anybody who kind of appreciates design will like it. Anybody who's interested in language will like it. Anybody who writes for their business which, at the last count, was all of us will appreciate it, because it goes through 600 confusing words and demystifies them in a really fun and memorable way. So it gives sometimes some quite almost silly tips, but they're memorable tips and they stick in your brain. So my approach to this is that nobody likes being lectured about being wrong with their spelling If you can make learning fun. It's sticky and people do retain that information.

Sarah Townsend: 41:20

And when I wrote it I wasn't thinking that it would be a book for other marketers. I was thinking perhaps more outside the industry. But the people who've loved it the most have actually been the marketers and the writers, the copywriters, editors, proofreaders, people who work with language day in, day out, because if you're doing any other kind of job, yeah, it's kind of nice to know that you're using the right use of a word, like whether is it acute or chronic, is it poisonous or venomous? Is it parameter or perimeter? And there are always these things like the phrases that people have used wrong their entire lives.

Will Ockenden: 41:57

Until you get this book and you flick through it, you're like wow, I didn't even know there were two versions of the word discreet or hoard or whatever it is yeah, the one, the one that got me, funnily enough, was the first one, which is one I've never known, and I basically take a 50, 50 punt on it whenever I'm writing and it's accept or except, which I think will probably resonate with a load of people um, what other ones are super common and people just don't get right. Then what you know are there. I mean, there's 600 or so in there. You know what are the ones you hear all the time yeah, well, I mean, obviously there are the cliched ones.

Sarah Townsend: 42:33

So, so, like you know, using the right form of it's, because people will put an apostrophe in thinking you need an apostrophe in a possessive when you're saying the dog chased its bull, you don't need an apostrophe in it, um. So there are those, there's the yours, the theirs, but um, there are things like phrases like off your own bat it's I've lost count of the number of people who say off your own back, like Chester Draws and um on on tender hooks and these sorts of things. So there's quite a lot of idiomatic examples in this book. It is it's got kind of some pop culture references. It's just, it's just a. It's kind of a really fun book as well as a really super useful book.

Sarah Townsend: 43:19

So the number of people who've said to me this this is my go-to, this just lives on my desk and I'm constantly dipping into it. I mean, I've got one of those. It looks like this. It's like literally battered to heck. But this is my fancy. I Show On podcast version, but it is a great book. I am obviously biased, but it's fun and it's super useful and if you write for, if it's really important, like you're working in PR or you're working in marketing and it's really vital because you're writing on behalf of clients and other people. You have to get those words right. You cannot afford to say bear is a perfect one. Bear with me the number of times I've seen people write B-A-R-E. Bear with me. Literally, let's get naked.

Chris Norton: 44:08

So the show is called Embracing Marketing Mistakes. Do you have a particular mistake that you've made in your career that you would like to share and will release from your stress levels forever?

Sarah Townsend: 44:24

release from your stress levels forever. This is a weird one for me because most of my mistakes in my freelance slash marketing career have come from my ADHD and I only knew I had ADHD last year. So they can all be explained brilliantly now and they're not necessarily marketing mistakes I can learn from, but I can share some stories that make you go oh okay. So I've got four words written down heron, suitcase, pasty and blogs. You can put the word and like literally the pasty. One is just a little, very small anecdote, but because I used to do a lot of proofreading in my previous job when I was working for the magazine publisher, we used to have celebrity articles and we had this article in Iceland, the frozen food stores magazine, and um, it was with Patsy Palmer and she was, uh, bianca in East Sanders and um and um, it had gone through, the article had gone through about three people proofreading it and it still got printed as pasty palmer oh, no, yeah um.

Sarah Townsend: 45:34

Another, another kind of one about um that always makes people chuckle is um, because I'm very easily distracted and I'm also a massive bird nerd and I've done a lot of freelance training. So I was doing some freelance training for a group of about 50, 60 marketers. I was on a Zoom call and right now I have a blind in front of me what's it called Venetian blind, and it it's closed.

Chris Norton: 46:01

And it's closed for good reason, because I was in the middle of this training and I went oh, look a heron cool I know that's quite cool, so, yeah, I probably remember the moment of the training for the rest of our lives do you remember that woman again, the training that just shouted about?

Sarah Townsend: 46:19

shouted about a bird flying by? Um. I was on my way to a um. Another one is I was on my way to a creative conference. That was absolutely brilliant. It never got repeated, unfortunately. It was called creative north shout out for those guys up in Manchester.

Sarah Townsend: 46:34

And I was really looking forward to having a few days away enjoying this conference and listening to loads of inspiring speakers. And I got on the train at Gloucester. I thought, right, I'm going to do it properly. I'm days away enjoying this conference and listening to loads of inspiring speakers. And I got on the train at Gloucester. I thought, right, I'm going to do it properly, I'm going to get on the train, take some work with me, sit on the train and do my work. Had to get off the train at Birmingham New Street and get a connecting train to Manchester. Got off the train, got on my new train. Okay, this is great, this is going well. I've got on my new train. Okay, this is great, this, this is going well. I've got on the right train. All all good and um.

Sarah Townsend: 47:05

Five minutes into the journey I realized my suitcase was still on the train to Nottingham. Oh no. So I got to Manchester and I had none of my staff and I was wearing ripped jeans, a little vest or just completely unsuitably dressed for a conference the following day, and I did actually manage to get it back, but it was a. It was a stressful, a challenge and a half, yeah, so I'm always super conscious about that. Um, the other thing is is so. It's so hideously embarrassing. I don't even know whether I can talk about it.

Chris Norton: 47:38

Oh, definitely do. Yeah, come on.

Sarah Townsend: 47:41

So I was commissioned by this company that shall remain nameless I'm not even sure whether to mention the sector but it was a good few years ago and I was writing, I think it was 10 blogs a month. For them, they were setting up this new website and it was to be a knowledge base for this particular area of specialism, and they commissioned me to write 10 blogs a month and for them, they were setting up this new website and it was to be a knowledge base for this particular area of specialism, and they commissioned me to write 10 blogs a month, and it was on a nine month contract. So the nine month contract came to an end. The blogs were going great guns, they were getting tons of traffic to their website as a result and they decided to continue the project. So I carried on working for them.

Sarah Townsend: 48:22

I did another, I think, 10 months worth of work and they were set up on my zero. My accounting system for a recurring invoice, obviously for like retainer kind of work, was going out at the start of the month and everything was being paid by standing order and everything was hunky-dory. So after the nine months happened, everything was great and I carried on with 10 remaining months of work and I forgot to invoice for 10 entire months and they owed me 20 grand.

Chris Norton: 48:54

I mean, how do you broach that?

Will Ockenden: 48:59

I bet that was a popular email.

Sarah Townsend: 49:01

That was the singularly worst moment of my entire career and, and just to this day, you know I was going to say I don't know how I how I managed to notice that 20 grand was missing from my account.

Chris Norton: 49:15

But yeah, okay, yeah but you, you didn't notice that and in theory, if they've agreed the budget like a theory, if they've agreed the budget like a normal client, if they've agreed the budget, they would probably go okay. I mean, it's a bit of an inconvenience to them, but I think that's probably bigger to you because it's your. You know, I think a lot of people mind you, if I couldn't bill us for 10 months, then suddenly a bill came with a 20K.

Sarah Townsend: 49:40

At the same time you 20k. They might have noticed that they weren't getting invoices for 10 months. I don't know, but it was a hundred percent on me and I feel like so ashamed telling you my story so, honestly, that's not the worst we've had.

Chris Norton: 49:56

We've had quite a few, and I always find that it's not as bad. What do they say? A problem shared as a problem. That's probably in your bloody book, isn't it? It's wrong, um, okay, and did they pay? It you got paid right well done so.

Chris Norton: 50:12

Sarah, you've been on the show now. Um, thanks for joining us. Um, how can? How can somebody get hold of you if they want to? You know they like what they hear. They've heard about your two books. How can they get hold of you? What's the best place to find you?

Sarah Townsend: 50:24

you're only allowed two choices as well remember too much choice is a bad thing I was just gonna say I used to completely contravene my own advice and I used to go well, you can connect with me on twitter or follow me on linkedin or whatever it was. So now I just say go to my website, sarahtownsendeditorialcouk, and you can find me on social media. Through my website, you can also get more details of both my books. You can buy them online. You can find out more about my website copywriting service and my documagic service.

Chris Norton: 50:55

Basically, everything you need about me is on my website, sarahtownsendeditorial editorial one final question if, um, if you were us, who would you interview next for this show?

Sarah Townsend: 51:09

maybe I don't know if you've already done him, but I don't think you have. I think like an absolutely perfect candidate would be joe from the marketing meetup. All right, okay, the host of the marketing meetup and the creator of that amazing community okay, that sounds good.

Chris Norton: 51:23

Um, yeah, um, I might ask you for his details afterwards. Yeah, um, well, great, um, thanks for thanks for coming on the show. So that was great. Really enjoyed it. It was nice to have you on yeah, thank you for that.

Will Ockenden: 51:34

Fascinating and some really yeah, some really great lessons for our listeners as well. That was fantastic.