Chris Norton: 0:52

Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast where you can learn the biggest blunders from the world's top marketers to hit record revenue and double your marketing ROI. I'm Chris Norton and my goal is to empower you, the senior marketer, to grow your brand and achieve unparalleled success. With over 25 years of experience, I've helped hundreds of senior marketers get a better return on their investment. Together, we'll turn your current brand into a thriving powerhouse and hopefully get you promoted Brackets hopefully close brackets. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by the lovely Vicky Murphy. As you know, she's our head of creative and also our guest, which is Alex Myers, who is the head of marketing at the SEO Works, a creatively driven marketing leader with a knack for delivering standout campaigns. As the head of marketing at the SEO Works, which is the global integrated search agency of the year, alex brings a wealth of expertise in SEO, ppc, web and my favorite paid social. His work has earned him nominations for brand campaign of the year at the 2023 and 2024 Regional Business Awards.

Chris Norton: 1:54

So in this episode, we'll dive into why understanding your consumer is the key to driving marketing ROI. We'll explore how adopting a marketing orientation, building authentic brands and focusing on real metrics can elevate your marketing success. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's hear how you can transform your marketing success. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's hear how you could transform your marketing strategy without having to make those silly mistakes. Enjoy, hi, everybody. Welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes. This week in the studio we've got Alex Myers from the SEO Works. Welcome, alex.

Alex Myers: 2:32

How are you doing?

Chris Norton: 2:32

Yeah, good to be here, yeah good, so why don't you tell us a little bit? Oh, and also, actually, before we get into the show, we've also got a more glamorous assistant than William Ockenden. Welcome back to the show. Thank you, you're like an OG of the show Boomerang. Yeah, you're a boomerang podcaster, yeah.

Vicki Murphy: 2:49

I'm excited to be here.

Chris Norton: 2:50

Again. Okay, you said that last time. Last time actually, I remember.

Vicki Murphy: 2:52

No, I didn't. I said guess who's back.

Chris Norton: 2:53

And I winked at the camera, which was about delivery.

Vicki Murphy: 2:55

Okay, great, yeah, okay, fine.

Chris Norton: 2:58

Anyway, right, so welcome into the show. Why don't you tell us a little bit about where you work currently? You work at the SEO Works. I mean it's going to take listeners a pain to know what you guys do there there. So why don't you tell us just walk us through what you did?

Alex Myers: 3:11

yeah, so um yeah, obviously clues in the name really primarily an seo agency, um, but we actually also do sort of a bit more of a suite of digital marketing services. So we also offer paid search, paid social. Uh, we build websites, do a bit of digital pr kind of like things that can build into that digital strategy. Um, my role over there is I'm in charge of the brand, the agency itself. So after kind of years of working in B2B marketing and having that thing where nobody understands what you do, I sort of leveled up by going somewhere where everybody else does what I do.

Alex Myers: 3:43

So, I no longer have to explain it. So yeah, so I'm sort of in charge of the agency's brand, making sure as many people know about us as possible, essentially.

Chris Norton: 3:51

So what you wanted to talk about on the show today was around. You told us beforehand. It was like how market orientation transforms marketing success. I'm really intrigued because you're now obviously we market to marketers.

Vicki Murphy: 4:05

We're a.

Chris Norton: 4:05

PR agency, pr and social agency, we market to marketing directors, but I don't do that solely. We, um, we don't have somebody solely in-house that just does that, whereas you're doing that, yeah what sort of challenges do you find with market orientation to marketers?

Alex Myers: 4:21

yeah, I think market orientation is already something that's quite hard to remember to do, because you put quite a lot of yourself into your work when you do marketing, and having to pull yourself back and remind yourself like, actually, is this actually good?

Alex Myers: 4:33

It's hard enough, I think. Weirdly, it sometimes can be harder for me because I do assume that if I think it is good, it is good because I am my own target audience. So having to kind of step back and do that and also as well, I think, reminding myself that just because I have a similar job title to the audience we're targeting, that doesn't mean that I've just got carte blanche to do whatever I want. You know, like I've worked in a number of different businesses and the marketing environment has been massively different from business to business. I've met, you know, marketing managers from loads of different sectors and you know they're almost completely different jobs in some scenarios. And I think that is where it does pose a challenge, because the assumption can be oh, brilliant, we just do what we'd like to see and then that that would be great, right, and well, well, while you were explaining that, I was thinking I bet you that 50 percent of the people listening to this will be going what the is?

Chris Norton: 5:27

market orientation? Yeah yeah, I was gonna say you went straight in there, yeah well, because the show's about market orientation and the fact that what's interesting is you, you're, you're a marketer, marketing to marketers yeah so you kind of get what market orientation is you just want to explain it a bit more, just in case people don't know, yeah, yeah.

Alex Myers: 5:44

So essentially you know market orientation and I mean it's exactly right what you said. I think you'd be so surprised how many marketers are out there that aren't really that familiar with it. It's not necessarily, you know, they might know what positioning is, things like that. The market orientation is essentially the idea that you are not the consumer, so you're sat within four walls surrounded by other people that do the same job as you, building campaigns that are going to be received by other people, and the orientation side is understanding that you have to take time to orientate yourself with the audience that's going to be receiving it.

Alex Myers: 6:16

I think the reason it's so crucial is because, sort of the more I mean particularly you see it on linkedin, things like that the more marketing as a kind of community grows in voice like and scale the hot, easier it is to forget that that's a real thing, because you know you're going online seeing, oh, this is the best advert I've ever seen, it was fantastic, oh, great work, you know. And then lots of other marketers are in the comments, the post, saying, yeah, I agree, like it's the best thing I've ever seen. But if you went, you know, back to your family or a friend or whatever, who doesn't do marketing and said what do you think of that? They might go, it's all right, and that's really the heart of market orientation.

Chris Norton: 6:57

It's the idea that you know you're not selling to yourself and you need to orientate yourself with who you actually are selling to and what they might think is good yeah, because a couple of weeks ago, a couple of episodes ago, we we interviewed lisa thompson who talked about cultural diversity in what we do in the industry and we have some people that work in class, some people middle class, and Lisa Thompson was talking on her podcast all about that when she went down to London, when she's worked with other agencies or whatever. That it's quite an exclude. Marketing or advertising was the sector she was referring to. It's quite an exclusive type of advertising is the sector she was referring to is quite an exclusive type of um sector. That, yeah, that's middle class. That isn't working class. That is, uh, I don't want to say male, pale and stale.

Chris Norton: 7:41

But no, no, yeah, yeah and so having a cultural diversity is better for exactly what you're talking about, which is orientating yourself to the market exactly.

Alex Myers: 7:51

I think, you know, we wouldn't have as much of a problem it is a bit of a chicken and egg thing but I think we wouldn't have as much of a problem with market orientation if the if marketing was less exclusive, as you said, because you'd naturally have more opinions from different backgrounds feeding into the work. But I think the key thing that underscores it every time is it's it's just taking that sanity check before you've got, obviously, ideation. You know, often there's no rules, anything sort of goes. But when an idea moves from just being an idea to being right, we're actually going to do this, having that sanity check and going okay.

Alex Myers: 8:27

But does the person that is actually going to buy this agree with this? You know, do they think that's funny? For example, that's another classic. Is that actually funny to them? Or, you know, would they maybe actually think that's kind of offensive or not really okay, but we do. Or, you know, but other stuff as well, like, do they actually care? Because I think the big mistake often we make at brands, you know, sat in at our businesses, is the average person just doesn't care about our brands. That's kind of like the platform you start at, but people forget that because they care about their brand and it's important to care about your brand but other people don't.

Alex Myers: 9:03

It's our job to make them. But with your advertising, with your marketing, don't assume they already do, and that's like the requisite for the stuff you're putting out there.

Chris Norton: 9:17

So do you have like a process that you go through to orientate yourself to the market? So I'll give you, for instance. So if we're working with a public sector client yeah, I know the public sector love to have some sort of what we would call now a focus group if you're doing a pitch.

Chris Norton: 9:25

Sometimes we might do. Um, if we were doing a big pitch for a public sector, we might come up with all those things that you've talked about. We might get some insight, initially, maybe online you can use AI now to get insight from a particular audience even before without speaking to anybody and then you would maybe come up with your ideas for the campaign. And then what I found that works really well for the public sector and I'm not saying the private sector don't seem to be as bothered as the public sector. They prefer testing and measuring would be as bothered as the public that they prefer testing and measuring. Yeah, where you actually demonstrate your campaign ideas, um to your to your target, so originating to that market yeah and seeing what feedback you get and how well received.

Chris Norton: 10:01

Is there a particular process like that that you follow and if so, what is it?

Alex Myers: 10:04

because I think people would like yeah I think it it will massively vary depending on the resources you have at your disposal, because I mean, when we're talking really big scale, you've got access to research departments, you've got access to research budgets and you can test everything you do. So with that scale, I just say, use it like, use that and do it properly as well. Don't test it in a way that you know you're going to get a good response. So it's a pat on the back for yourself. I think where it gets difficult is the other end of the spectrum businesses that haven't got the opportunity whether that's money or time to properly test it. So what I'd say in that scenario is, well, I guess, two things.

Alex Myers: 10:41

First of all, I think, as marketers, it should be our job to constantly be a sponge to culture, culture, so everything around you, whether you're you know I don't want to encourage people to you know work 24 hours a day, but like when you're out and about talking to people, I do it quite a lot, like I'm trying to be a sponge for sentiment around certain things, whether you're reading the news or whatever, just kind of taking stock and note of subject matters that you're covering.

Alex Myers: 11:42

But then also it is that element of starting from that ground. So it's not necessarily going. I'm going to try and understand that person, because unless you're able to research and meet them, you can't. So what I tend to do if I'm in that scenario is just kind of almost reverse engineer it and go okay, I'm going to pretend that I literally couldn't care less about this at all, I'm not even interested, and almost, like common sense, test it against that and you know and again, you can even do it with you know internal staff. If you do it in that way, because you can say to them like, pretend like this, this literally doesn't bother you at all, what do you think of this? What kind of things come to your mind? And you can, if you start from that level, you can, kind of you can, you can get the next best thing. Obviously the best thing is hearing from the actual demographic, but that's not always possible okay, um seo okay search engine optimization, um.

Chris Norton: 12:38

Are we seeing the evolution of seo now? Because it's moved from it was academic type papers then it, then it's.

Chris Norton: 12:46

In the last 10 years it moved to digital PR, which has been an interesting evolution to people that were from traditional integrated PR and now, obviously in the last two years since October 2022, I think it is AI then came out. Google got caught with its pants down, immediately panicked and well, not immediately, I imagine, immediately panicked because suddenly the biggest app on the internet was chat, gpt and people now are they bypassing google searches by using ai. Um is what is that going to mean for seo? Because you know, to the days of going google, tell me this. Um are they over and people don't want it. Now the ai will just generate you, give you a response. You don't need to go to any website I don't need and people don't want it. Now the ai will just generate you, give you a response. You don't need to go to any website I don't need any.

Chris Norton: 13:31

I don't need to rank well now because or is it? Do you still need to rank well so that the ais can read your content and serve the information that you've got on your site to that? That it's an interesting dynamic. I just wondered what seo industry is thinking about that yeah, I mean, I think, I think, yeah, there's.

Alex Myers: 13:47

It's definitely something that evolves. I think at the moment the data suggests that there isn't yet a move away from search engines for queries. Ai seems to. I mean, ai use is obviously enormous already and it is growing at the moment. That doesn't seem to be impacting search volumes yet. I do think there will be a process that it does. But I think where SEO has value and still will in that environment is people want to hear information that they feel is. I mean. So to kind of scale it back a little bit, when Google introduced the e to ea, well, it was ea t, then became ea t a bit less catchy which stands for, because no one could ever experience, expertise, authority and trust and trust yeah, yeah

Vicki Murphy: 14:38

god, that would be really nervous if I just got that complete. If I butchered that I could have edited that, yeah, yeah um, but yeah.

Alex Myers: 14:44

So obviously, when they introduced the experience, the whole point of that was that people yes, there's some content that AI can serve fantastically and probably in many ways quicker maybe than a website or a search engine can. But there will be information that people want to go to human beings about. I mean, this is a really random example, but when you know recipes started moving online, for example, people at the time were probably like, well then, cookbooks are dead. Surely why would you ever buy a cookbook? You can just Google what you want to know, get that recipe.

Alex Myers: 15:19

The truth is, ok, cookbooks might be slightly less popular, but they still coexist in the same space and the people behind the cookbooks have websites that do really well. And the difference is people want to hear not just how to make spaghetti bolognese, they want to hear how X person says to make spaghetti bolognese. And with businesses, you might have certain queries that you know a very, very menial AI can deliver that response. But there might be some things, particularly transactional things, things where you're thinking of buying, where actually what you want to hear from is something written by a person based on experience, based on other things. Trust, yeah, trust exactly.

Chris Norton: 15:57

Yeah, because what you just referenced there, I'm just thinking back to the days I don't know if you've got one, one of the Kindle.

Alex Myers: 16:02

Yeah.

Chris Norton: 16:03

When the Kindle came out. The Kindle books are dead. Books haven't died, I think.

Alex Myers: 16:08

I mean.

Chris Norton: 16:08

I think a few bookshops have shut, but I don't think they're still there, isn't it?

Alex Myers: 16:12

The bookshops are still.

Chris Norton: 16:13

Amazon still sells a lot of them.

Alex Myers: 16:14

It's the thing and I think that's something as well where I think, when things shift quite regularly and what tends to usually happen other than a few very specific examples throughout history you know, I'm not going to sit here and say like, and that's the thing about VHS, like obviously, unfortunately, dvd, then Netflix or whatever, like those are things that don't really exist anymore. So it does happen, but I think most of the time, particularly when it comes to the web, you tend to see what it's more of a shift in an evolution than this is great, this dies. Obviously, on LinkedIn, everybody says this is great and this dies because that's what people like posting about. But in terms of how it really tends to play out, I think it tends to just kind of readjust.

Chris Norton: 17:03

The reason why I say that is and I'll give you a question. Adjust the reason why I say that is and I'll give you a question the reason why I say that is because the SEO industry came from, let's be honest, came from nowhere didn't it?

Vicki Murphy: 17:13

The SEO industry came from nowhere.

Chris Norton: 17:15

Websites came out and an entire industry is built on something and it works. People want SEO specialists. If you want to be in the top five, you need to follow best practices, and if it gets really competitive, you need to hire a reasonably sized agency like that.

Vicki Murphy: 17:32

That's fair, isn't it?

Chris Norton: 17:33

But quite as quickly as it came. I'm just wondering if Google don't make their AI as and I'm sure they're trying to scratch around- to make it inclusive, so they can still sell ads.

Chris Norton: 17:44

So there's still an ecosystem around search and AI, otherwise, the industry that's just popped up might, like you were just saying before we started recording. You were saying, weren't you? You were talking about COVID and how there was a massive emergence of more and more agencies during COVID, because people were all back on their mobile phones. Is this now? So loads of people were searching. The only way to find content was via SEO, so you guys got loads of work, but now the ai is coming out and delivering content in a different way. Is it the reverse of that that's? That's just an interesting theory that I don't think anyone's nailed yet, have they no?

Alex Myers: 18:20

no, I think, and I think it will be something where you know, I mean already in the, in the especially as far as the internet's concerned relatively short lifespan so far of this conversation in terms of ai, like, if you think how much the conversation, the focuses, have already evolved, you know that's what the next one, two, five, ten years are going to look like, and I think it's very difficult because of that to formulate an idea. I think it. What it really boils down to, though, is the ability for agencies like us and you know and others to to understand what it is people are actually trying to get when they search online, but also understand what we can give to businesses that ai can't. Because you know, I mean, yeah, we will be asked it, you know, like why, why should I employ an SEO agency to write me content when ChatGPT can write me all of the web pages possible?

Chris Norton: 19:13

I'm sure that's already been said.

Alex Myers: 19:15

Yes, it probably happens to our business development team, probably once or twice a day at this point. But I think there's two areas to explore. In that, you've got number one well, technically, nothing's stopping them, but after. In that you've got number one well, technically, nothing's stopping them, but after, within the space of six months, google went from saying, yeah, that's fine, as long as it complies with everything else, that's fine, to then releasing an update that massively punished websites with a mass ai written content. So the reason you partner with an agency, the reason we write it with people, is because we've worked with google, with google it's not really with google, but around you know, um, for now, as an agency, 15 years. So we have as good an idea of what's going on as anyone can, and so we're there to safeguard them against stuff like that, rather than rushing into a trend you.

Chris Norton: 20:02

You referenced building on authentic brand from the inside out. Yeah, so if you're out there, you want your brand to be more authentic. Everybody claims to be authentic.

Alex Myers: 20:13

It's the new thing.

Chris Norton: 20:14

We're authentic. Yeah, how do you build a brand or how do you make a brand authentic from?

Alex Myers: 20:19

inside out. So I think, yeah, I mean this phrase is something that I've been. I'm probably there's definitely people out there that are sick of me saying that phrase because I sort of hammer it all the time. I think there's been a few times in my career where I've been basically tasked with starting an internal marketing team. So my current role that was and they were a simple position to you guys. As you said, they didn't have somebody explicitly doing the marketing because they were marketing to other marketers. So I was brought in to kind of begin that, and I've done it before and I think what I always found the best thing to do was because you go in and they probably have a brand already, as any business does, but you're there to expand it, to properly define it and you know the same thing applies for a business, creating a brand too.

Alex Myers: 21:04

the question always goes like well, where do you start with that and what are you going to do? And I think often what happens is marketers sit in a room and they say what are our target audience going to be most receptive to? Or what do we think is going to sell the best, or what are people not doing at the moment. And I think what happens when people do that is they create something that might be absolutely fantastic, shiny, glittery, brilliant, amazing, but it's not really sustainable and it isn't authentic, because it wasn't actually what the business was. It was what the business wanted to be, and that's what I'd call building a brand from the outside in. So as marketers, saying we want to be this, this is what we want to look like, this is what we want to be known as, and then turning around to all of the staff that you know actually do the work and saying just to let you guys know this is what we are, so act like it and they all go what?

Chris Norton: 21:52

okay? So they go like, um, we're, we're now a sustainable business. Yeah, because we send all our photocopied paper, yeah, to the recycling center. So that's now, we're in our recycling business yeah, sounds like our internal media and suddenly you're, suddenly, you know you're, suddenly you're.

Alex Myers: 22:08

You're then asking people who, to be honest, are just trying to do their jobs, which are marketing, yeah to act a certain way, and what that really ends up looking like is, you know, the world's worst fitting fancy dress costume, because, it's not real what I mean by building it from the inside out is starting the process with the people that are actually doing the work.

Alex Myers: 22:29

Not the people that are there to sell the work or get new work, but people are actually doing it and say right, what do you? What do you do that you think is good? What do you enjoy about your work? What do you find satisfying?

Vicki Murphy: 22:39

You know, if I was to sit you in a room with.

Alex Myers: 22:41

You know that person from that other company that does something similar. What do you think that you've got over them? What, what do you do that makes you proud, what? And you have a lot of conversations like that and you know a lot of it will be maybe just like I don't know, or that's your job, isn't it? You know things like that. But you'll pick up these areas and, essentially, if you build it based on what the business is already doing, obviously you fluff it up, that's, you can make it look a bit more sexy. But if you do it on that, you haven't got to spend all your time begging the staff to take on the positioning that you're trying to sell externally.

Alex Myers: 23:16

Oh guys, please can you start talking like this on LinkedIn. Or please can you start talking about X and Y, Because they're already doing the work and the business will feel authentic because of that, Because consumers can spot inauthenticity a mile off.

Vicki Murphy: 23:31

There must be some challenges around that, though. If you have, especially in your position, if you have kind of, I suppose, insights from your internal team that doesn't quite fit with plans, or like what are the biggest challenges that you've found around implementing that in your role?

Alex Myers: 23:45

I think trying to find yeah it's kind of come back to the whole thing, you know, saying like, oh, they're trying to do their own job trying to find ways of packaging some of the stuff you get back can be quite difficult because at the end of the day, you know, there is definitely a list of things that sell and the things that don't, and if what they're doing sometimes making that bridge, can be quite tough, finding that thing that makes what they're already doing sort of sellable, you know.

Alex Myers: 24:12

So like I mean, I think, with, with my, with the agency I work at you know, what. So an example of how I did it there is. Everything I sort of spoke about was there was just a lot of like training related stuff. A lot of people were talking about how much they'd learn and how, all this sort of stuff, and originally that was kind of difficult because I was like well you can't really sell clients or internal training, like, if anything, they'll be like, well, like I hope you're not doing too much.

Alex Myers: 24:41

You're actually working on things. So but eventually, where that I've sort of kept pulling on that thread and kept talking to people and these initiatives that the company did, that promoted in training, things like that, and eventually the positioning we landed on was this idea of being the digital growth expert. So the idea of the marketing would be all about sharing expertise. So if you look at our linkedin channel, any of our stuff- we very rarely actually sell what we do.

Alex Myers: 25:02

We do a lot of sort of guides and explainers, free webinars, free white papers. So I kind of took that thing that initially I didn't think was going to be able to sell us like that training and that knowledge, and I went oh actually, if we kind of flip that and make it that we dedicate the time to being the most knowledgeable we possibly can and then we give that away so people on LinkedIn are getting that stuff for free, that might be enough to kind of get into the conversation.

Chris Norton: 25:31

Do you have to do this for clients then Yourself, or do you just specifically?

Alex Myers: 25:34

work for no, so I'm specifically working for the brand.

Chris Norton: 25:36

yeah, okay so you wouldn't go into a client and recommend no. Okay, interesting.

Vicki Murphy: 25:40

How do those two topics then that we've covered, like the market orientation and putting yourself into, I suppose, your customer's point of view in your role, plus then the inside out development of a marketing strategy, how do you work those together, because I suppose they're quite opposite.

Alex Myers: 25:58

Yeah, sides of the pole yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, funny enough when you, when you put them up like that, it does it's. Yeah, it does sound like I'm trying to be two people at once.

Vicki Murphy: 26:04

No, no, I was just curious. Obviously it's worked for you and I'm just wondering, like from a, I suppose, a tips and techniques point of view, how do you know?

Alex Myers: 26:10

No, you're completely right and I think the key thing again is like so, with the inside out and then also trying to put yourself in the market, in the mindset of the consumer. It's with that positioning that you've already got, with that brand. That's inside out that then, as the marketer needs to be something that you kind of just carry with you with everything you do. And something that you kind of just carry with you with everything you do and it stops being something that you kind of think about or try and execute, but instead it becomes almost like what you are, like a pair of glasses that you view the world through.

Alex Myers: 26:42

So when you're doing the orientation, you're, you're not going. How can this brand be x or y? You're doing that orientation with the overlay of, and where does our voice sit.

Chris Norton: 26:54

That makes sense, that makes sense.

Alex Myers: 26:55

Yeah, talking to people and going how can we help that experience or that want?

Chris Norton: 27:01

Do you? So? We did a podcast six or seven ago with a lady called Katie Tucker who talked about being customer centric as a business and questioning your, your actual clients um, which I think is a very brave move.

Vicki Murphy: 27:17

By the way, why do you work with us?

Chris Norton: 27:19

why don't you work with you? Know why? What do you like about working with us? Yeah, does that tie right in with what you're talking about? Like you get right under the skin of yeah, exactly, you can understand it, because that would really drive what you're talking about. About what?

Alex Myers: 27:32

they're obsessed with right. Yeah, I think that's the thing. I think it is a really brave thing to do, but I think it's almost certainly, you know, in every scenario the right thing to do. I think there's a lot of fear around asking certain questions B2B definitely more so than B2C, because the way those conversations happen in B2C are different. The way those conversations happen in b2c are different. I think b2b there's certainly a lot of fear around opening that question because you know, you know, I've encountered it a lot where it's like.

Alex Myers: 27:58

Well, if we ask, what if we don't like the answer? Yeah, or if we ask what if they're a bit annoyed at us or all these sort of things?

Alex Myers: 28:03

and yeah what I'd always say in that case is you know, well, that's more reason why you need to ask if you sat here or afraid of the response. Yeah, something's not right. You know that authenticity might be called into question and, again, as you said, everybody can claim they're authentic. But like walking the walk as well as talking. To talk in that scenario is the hard and also sometimes scary thing to do, but you know it's. I think it has got to be done.

Chris Norton: 28:32

Okay. So a third theme that you've put into that we've discussed before you came on the show, was something that we've covered on our webinars that we do, which is about focusing on real metrics versus vanity metrics. Now, I refer to that when we talk about vanity metrics, we talk about like, I'm meaning things like sometimes it can be things like oh so, for instance, there was a particular shopping center, who shall remain nameless, who, um, about six, seven years ago, and I think vicky and I went in to see them and they said, uh, our objective from social media is to have 1 million Facebook fans. To which we said why?

Chris Norton: 29:14

and they said because this other well-known shopping center has got three quarters of a million and we just want more than them. And and I was like that's just a vanity metric so do you want to explain what what you mean by real metrics versus vanity metrics? Yeah, and is that? What is that the same thing?

Alex Myers: 29:32

no, yeah completely same thing. I mean, you know, I think from my perspective, at the end of the day and a lot of people don't really like to admit this or talk about this, I think, maybe because it's not as sexy but at the end of the day, marketing is there to make businesses more money. That's the bottom line, that's pun accident. But you know, at the end of the day, that's what we're there to do. Everything else is either there to contribute to that or not.

Alex Myers: 29:56

And the point is a vanity. Metric is something that essentially is worthless in and of itself. So Facebook followers are a classic example. Evidence to back up that I don't know. One in every thousand of their Facebook followers has an 80% uplifted chance of shopping in the shopping center. That becomes a little bit more of an important metric, because then they can say we want to reach this KPI, because this is what it will do to new business, this is what it will do to customer retention.

Alex Myers: 30:29

But the point is that metric isn't the metric. The metric they're really talking about is the retention figure that they're hoping the follower will eventually take part in. So I think in every facet of marketing is quite common. I mean, in SEO, we see it quite a lot Originally and it still is to this day. That was something that we definitely used to our advantage and it was definitely a few years ago, something that we had over our competitors, which was that people struggled and weren't really delivering results to clients that were real, so you know with SEO.

Alex Myers: 31:05

Often the metrics are stuff like keyword movement, traffic, things like that, links, links. But what we said was well, okay, but what does that mean to anybody other than the person receiving the report? Like, if that traffic is just, let's say, you're a UK only company, if that traffic is coming from the States, it's worthless traffic. It can look really nice on your analytics, but it doesn't matter. You know, if those keywords that are in positions one to three are all niche blogs within your site, what's that actually doing? So one of the things we did was okay, well, let's actually still report that, but then also go let's dig into the organic revenue.

Alex Myers: 31:41

So what is actually happening?

Alex Myers: 31:43

new sales, wise off the back of that traffic and I think it links quite heavily to I hear this a like whenever I go to like a marketing event or like speak to marketers. A big complaint senior marketers have is oh, we're not taking as seriously as the other members in the boardroom. You know that's a classic thing. It's like well, the sales director, everybody loves him. Or you know, finance, all this sort of stuff and marketing seems to be that kind of like weird colouring in department or or whatever. And I think one of the things we we do to ourselves maybe we can be guilty of is reporting. Vanity metrics is one of the reasons we're not taken seriously. So within my team we do report on stuff like likes, impressions, engagements. Of course we do, because that's an indication of how well that's doing. But do I turn around to our directors and tell them that's why we're doing a good job? Of course I don't. They don't care.

Vicki Murphy: 32:36

But do I go, however?

Alex Myers: 32:38

these metrics mean X, and that can be linked to Y, and that's kind of the difference between those two types of metrics.

Chris Norton: 32:46

Yeah, because that is interesting, Because this is performance marketing really. So, you're getting links. You're getting digital PR to drive links or whatever. Your keywords are rising up, but there's a big debate on what's worth more now performance marketing or brand. So does the SEO works? Do anything in terms of brand SEO? Does brand work in SEO?

Vicki Murphy: 33:11

I don't think I've ever asked that question because the whole thing is about performance marketing.

Chris Norton: 33:15

I've put this bit of content out. It's now linked by this many people. It's now pushed this up there, but brand is a longer burn, so what's your view on that?

Alex Myers: 33:25

Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean that's actually a really interesting question because I think it's often not necessarily something that's the easiest sell, because often you say to the clients you know they'll say I want to rank my service pages because that has commercial benefit. And I think where brand comes into, seo is looking at the search journey a bit like any user journey, any customer journey, and looking a bit more broadly.

Alex Myers: 33:49

So, okay, fair enough, you might want to rank for gardeners near me because that's a very commercial search term. You're looking for a gardener we can get you to position three or whatever, and that increases your sales.

Alex Myers: 34:02

But actually it's looking at it and going and this is where the brand comes in. Okay, well, what might lead to somebody maybe needing a gardener in the first place? How can we get in there first? Because if you rely on those commercial terms while they're good, you are exactly that you're very reliant. Because if you drop a little bit, how many gardeners do you reach out to when you want something done, like maybe the first two, maybe three at a push, but if your rankings drop slightly?

Alex Myers: 34:29

you lose out on that. Equally, if you can't get there, you lose out on that, whereas if you're looking at from the brand perspective.

Alex Myers: 34:35

So with us again, the blog content we do. We know that people who want digital marketing might inquire with us. But the from the brand perspective, with our own seo that we do for our own website, we're going okay. Well, what challenges might marketers face before they realize they need an SEO agency? How can we get there? And that's where the brand comes in. So questions that marketers might ask how do I do X on Google Analytics or how do I track Y Issues, not commercial things? We create branded blog content that answers those questions and then we're in that their mind from like up here. Hubspot are the masters at that yes, hubspot.

Alex Myers: 35:17

Yeah, I mean, there's some really amazing brands doing some good work on that.

Vicki Murphy: 35:20

I think um so yeah, um, just sticking then with the topic of metrics. Just before we go off that one, have you had any specific campaigns that you've worked on where you've seen that shift towards, you know, moving away from vanity metrics and that working and having a positive impact for your, any of your campaigns?

Alex Myers: 35:40

yeah, I think for me it's well. I mean, there's kind of two directions that I think it's been helpful for. I think number one, in terms of showing proof of process moving away from vanity metrics, is really really good, because if you think about who controls the purse strings of your marketing budget, the language they speak certainly isn't vanity metrics. And if you can provide evidence that a campaign has delivered in certain areas that are directly related to that thing, that money, it provides a lot stronger argument for when you want to do something in certain areas that aren't like that are directly related to that thing that you know money.

Alex Myers: 36:14

It provides a lot stronger argument for when you want to do something bigger or bolder or different? I think also in terms of the visibility it gives you over the success of your own work as well, because I think the one thing about vanity metrics is that they inherently are quite easy to feel good about.

Vicki Murphy: 36:34

Right.

Alex Myers: 36:35

So it's like there's always one that you can pick out. I mean, you know all the impressions were kind of low on that post, but because no one saw it.

Vicki Murphy: 36:42

The engagement rate looks really high, no, so?

Alex Myers: 36:45

you can look at your own work with vanity metrics and give yourself a nice pat on the back quite easily. Pat on the back quite easily and I think with my own campaigns, moving away from them though it's hard can sometimes make the work better because there's not really anywhere to hide, you know if you do a campaign and no sales were made, you've got to go back to the drawing board. Try again. And you know, if we were focused on vanity metrics, I'm sure I could have dug out something yeah, to be happy about you know?

Alex Myers: 37:12

oh, actually you've got loads of likes, like well done team, off we go, whereas, yeah, I think for me one of the benefits moving away from it has just been, yeah, that sort of vivid reality. It gives you over the performance and what that does to your next campaign, the one after that.

Vicki Murphy: 37:27

I think in PR, that's been something that has been a huge focus, hasn't it, over the last few years, because we could have dined out on vanity, metrics and opportunities to see in the millions, and I think it's been a real shift in this industry as well of trying to really nail those meaningful measurements and be able to deliver a true ROI.

Chris Norton: 37:46

I think that's kind of where PR, which is one of the sectors that we're in, is. Pr is more about reputation and brand, and that is the bit you know. You say it's harder to justify and it's the age-old industry problem that we use a different measurement system to try and show, measure certain metrics. But it is all about brand PR, really reputation brand, but ultimately when your business is in trouble, it's your reputation that you survive on.

Chris Norton: 38:21

Which it's so weird because it feels like a bit of a vanity project about brand, but actually your brand can save you if you've got a decent reputation. If you've got a bad reputation, you've got a bad reputation you're finished so completely. I think it doesn't matter how good your bloody content is. If you've got a shit reputation, you are done. Do you know what I mean?

Alex Myers: 38:41

and I think that's the thing I think, and also it's worth pointing out as well that I think brand often gets branded as a part of marketing. That's hard to do what I just said for, and that is true, it is like lead generation, always going to be easier to report those sales metrics because that's what you're doing. But I think again, like it's not thinking.

Alex Myers: 39:02

That's impossible with brand and it's really working with the client or working with wherever you're working, to understand the impact brand has on those real metrics so you can find a way of reporting it. Because also I mean reputation is a classic example you know they will have an understanding of what their reputation does to their sales, does to x and y and it's showing them that you care about that. You understand that that's the aim rather than, you know, just going because I mean, I hear loads, like you know well you can't you know?

Alex Myers: 39:32

reports necessarily sales from brands, so that kind of makes it redundant or whatever, and I think it's trip advisor exactly.

Chris Norton: 39:40

You know that's that's. That's exactly that. You can be on our website. You can. You can google an amazing hotel. You find it online. It looks amazing. Most people now now would just switch straight back to either TripAdvisor or one of the holiday reputation sites, and if you've got one, if it's full of one, or two stars, then that hotel ain't getting the booking, is it?

Alex Myers: 40:02

And just thinking outside the box as well and investigating the different areas brand can exist.

Alex Myers: 40:07

I mean ours is quite a good example because, as it hopefully should be, you know our own SEO for our agency is very good. So if you search various terms like SEO agency, seo company, you know we should appear, you know, pretty much at the top, if not at the top. But for a long time we saw organic search. Therefore, is this lead generation, inbound, lead platform? But but actually, you know, we dig into how many people are actually googling our agency's name and it was actually loads and that and that was a good way of reporting brand through that way because we were able to go. Well, we know x hundred people are searching for seo works. Specifically, we can attribute x traffic, x sure it wasn't.

Chris Norton: 40:47

Does seo work? Do you know what you should joke about that?

Alex Myers: 40:53

we have a problem with that so much yeah, I did, is we? We had this um very funny story.

Alex Myers: 40:59

We had this uh brand like a reputation tracking thing, but basically it's like a software, whatever it was to give us like sentiment for us on the internet and you know you've probably seen it Definitely it pings up if you get featured in a website or a piece of press or whatever. And you know it pings up if somebody writes your name. And I remember like the first week we were using it my inbox was just exploding and I was like, oh my God, this is really bad or good, or whatever it is, and loads of it was just people saying, like, how does SEO work?

Alex Myers: 41:31

And the tool didn't do like the full Boolean thing, it just like pulled. Just if those words were in the sentence. We got a notification.

Chris Norton: 41:39

So AI has got rid of Boolean hopefully, yeah.

Alex Myers: 41:42

So literally, I was just sat there just getting all of these things going you've been mentioned and you click on it and it was just someone asking like how does SEO work? And it was like that's not, that's not answer.

Chris Norton: 41:53

So this part of the show, alex, is where you tell us about a marketing mistake that you've done and in the notes you've sent us through something about a construction survey. Do you want to explain what your? And this is the bit where people get quite therapeutic.

Alex Myers: 42:07

So enjoy it and share with the world.

Chris Norton: 42:11

Once you share it, it never happens. Just let it go. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Myers: 42:15

And funny enough. I'm worried about the people, the other people that we reminded that worked on it too now and they'll go. I've forgotten about that until you said that on the podcast.

Chris Norton: 42:23

PTSD.

Alex Myers: 42:23

Yeah, so I spent some time as group marketing manager at a kind of group of businesses, vaguely in the sort of HR remits. There was recruitment, there was training, there was payroll, things like that, and I obviously oversaw part of that, the recruitment arm. And one of the ideas for a campaign we had which was supposed to be kind of brand but it was also had a little bit of lead generation there too was we wanted to basically improve our reputation within the construction division of our work, you know construction recruitment can be um, I don't know, there can be some sort of like.

Alex Myers: 42:59

Sometimes construction staff aren't massively like. They don't love agencies that much. We wanted to make sure that you know we had a good reputation that, but also wanted to make sure as well people were aware that we offered these.

Alex Myers: 43:09

You know the service, things like that so anyway I had this, all these sort of ideas, and I sort of. I came up with this idea where, basically, I'd spoken to one of the consultants about one of the issues they most sort of like come across and it stuck in my mind. I thought, yeah, maybe that's something in that. And and the thing was that the construction staff felt that agencies were a bit out of touch with what a fair wage was and at the end of the day, you know, particularly agency construction, it's hourly rate, it can move all the time. Is this?

Chris Norton: 43:39

lower end construction, so it's not like your senior construction director.

Alex Myers: 43:43

No, these are like sort of labourers, bricklayers, ground workers, things like that. I mean the wages can move even as much as like if a really, really big project is happening in a city that will inflate elsewhere, things like that.

Vicki Murphy: 43:54

So the story feels risky already.

Chris Norton: 43:56

Yeah I'm thinking of the. Was it the? What's that tool? That tool?

Alex Myers: 44:01

facebook community on the tool on the tools yeah, just full of just all sorts yeah, so I mean that probably should have been my sort of alarm. What was the?

Chris Norton: 44:11

point of this episode.

Vicki Murphy: 44:13

Market orientation in marketing.

Chris Norton: 44:16

It was so fun to know your audience. This was the day I learned that lesson the hard way.

Alex Myers: 44:20

So yeah, essentially that was the pain point I thought I'll tell you what I'll do. This will kill multiple birds with only one stone, so the idea was a pay survey. So we put out comms about all the social media, basically inviting construction staff to get in touch with us and let us know what they think of fair wage wars. Anybody that got in touch got entered into a prize draw, win, win. As far as I was concerned get in touch how uh, so it was well.

Alex Myers: 44:46

so they were actually supposed to email a certain email address with or I think there was also a message bot thing they could use, but the idea was to get in touch. That was the key word.

Vicki Murphy: 44:58

And what would they win? What were they offered? I? Can't remember to be honest, it was a good thing, it was a good prize. I think it was money. Based on that, it was good.

Alex Myers: 45:10

Anyway. So I'm sat there and I'm thinking you know, this has got to be a win-win. We look like we care, because we're asking them what they think fair pay is. There's also something in it for them as well. So at the very minimum, you know they're going to get something out of it.

Alex Myers: 45:21

Anyway, as you sort of alluded to, it was probably the origin story of my obsession with market orientation, because it was an example of that going horrendously. Because what I hadn't really considered as I don't work in construction and I don't operate in that sector was that that frustration around not knowing what a fair wage was was probably just reinforced by the fact that there was an agency asking. In my head as a marketer I was thinking all the fluffy and all the creatives, they look beautiful and you know how great do we sound. But I think on reflection, to them it was basically just like wow, you don't even want to make an effort to know. You're just like just tell us, just tell us. Uh. So that was kind of the one thing. But the thing I hadn't really thought about as well is you know, with how social media works?

Alex Myers: 46:11

is that as much as the creative told them to get in touch with this email address or message board or whatever?

Chris Norton: 46:16

it was. It just replied the replies and the comments onwards on the post.

Alex Myers: 46:19

On the post.

Alex Myers: 46:20

What channel was it on Everything Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and basically what it basically became. So I sort of it went live and I sort of went home and I'm pretty sure it launched on like a Monday or something and I got to the office to just like a barrage of kind of very questionable looking like, because you can see like a preview of a comment. I was like what is all this? And essentially the every campaign post became almost like, I guess, this podcast. You joked about it being like a therapy session almost like a kind of therapy session for people who worked in construction and were annoyed about how much they were getting paid and the best part was it wasn't even a lot of the time about us. So we were like absorbing negative reputation of other people on our content. So it was just like every post was comments saying oh, have you worked on X job for X person?

Alex Myers: 47:14

They pay absolutely awful.

Vicki Murphy: 47:16

Oh, so it's like dialogue with each other.

Alex Myers: 47:17

Yeah, dialogue with each other.

Vicki Murphy: 47:19

So you've created a community.

Chris Norton: 47:20

So, ironically, what I should have done was report Engagement levels are amazing. I should have reported the vanity metrics and gone. Our comments are through the roof. Don't look at them. It of vanity metrics and gone. Our comments are through the roof.

Alex Myers: 47:28

Don't look at them. It doesn't matter what they are. Don't look at sentiment.

Alex Myers: 47:31

Yeah so yeah, so yeah, basically it just became this and you know, as you just sort of alluded to on the tools, I wouldn't necessarily say a lot of those comments were massively PG either, so there was a whole problem to do with that as well it's when they make you laugh though yeah. Yeah, I mean there's a few that I sort of like again. I was kind of semi early in my career and it was like definitely a moment where I was like trying to take a lot of them personally you know, but yeah, no, a lot of them made me laugh.

Chris Norton: 48:00

You're a faceless organization asking for people to rant about their pain yeah, literally so yeah.

Alex Myers: 48:05

So I think we had very few people enter the competition.

Vicki Murphy: 48:09

Did you shut it down and you roped through the storm.

Alex Myers: 48:12

Yeah, yeah, so we tried to ride. So the original call was let's respond to the comments and let them know that we're hearing their frustration, things like that.

Alex Myers: 48:23

try and get across it until it became clear that that probably wasn't possible and essentially it became a thing where we just kind of closed it. Um, I think we gave out. I think there were some people that got in touch. Obviously we made sure that we still get out the prize and I think we probably publicized the giving of the prize a bit less than we maybe originally planned to.

Alex Myers: 48:42

But yeah, and it was just one of those things where I think, as I said, like it it would have in all the sort of marketing areas it ironically, wouldn't have been that easy to predict because, as I said it, our reputation wasn't bad, like a lot of the comments weren't actually against us, so it wasn't like I could have gone. Oh, actually, people might be annoyed at us, I won't post it. The thing I hadn't really thought about was just the idea that this would become a community between them.

Alex Myers: 49:11

It was so exactly so topical that they talked to each other and you know there are certain topics where you know heat discussion might be encouraged by a brand. It might be part of the thing, but I think that was probably one where there probably wasn't anything to be gained. Did the media pick up?

Alex Myers: 49:25

on it anywhere no, it sort of. I think again, I think the the agency it was a sort of medium-sized business, but I think it, luckily for us we weren't a brand of the size where it would have attracted it and also luckily because of us and the reach we had, although it got out of hand from where we were concerned it wasn't so I mean, I imagine if, like one of the big recruitment agencies, did what we did, it would be like thousands of comments.

Chris Norton: 49:52

So how many comments did you get?

Alex Myers: 49:55

I don't remember which was the worst platform as well.

Chris Norton: 49:57

It's got to be Definitely Facebook. Oh, was it Facebook? Definitely Facebook, yeah.

Alex Myers: 50:00

Well, I think also the fact was that and again this should have come into my research was that Facebook was a topic where that conversation was already happening within that group, like that, as you said, on the tools Facebook page things like that. It's somewhere where people in construction already go for that community area. So I think ironically, I think we didn't get that, you'd think because of what Twitter?

Alex Myers: 50:23

is like it would have, but it didn't get particularly that like expansive on Twitter because that wasn't where the discussion was happening and actually it was Facebook comments that.

Vicki Murphy: 50:33

So it could have been much worse, definitely, and it was a great learning for you.

Alex Myers: 50:37

Yes, big time. I think it was just one of those moments where it was like, yeah, I, I I'm not, I need it was like it was a double. It was I'm definitely not who I'm selling to, and I need to bear that in mind. And it was also that whole thing of I need to put certain campaign ideas through certain tests myself before I just sort of throw them out into the world, because it was organic as well, like there was no paid budget behind it. It was like the checks were lower.

Alex Myers: 51:01

You know, it wasn't like we're going to part with 10 grand of ad spend. So you know, make sure everything's looking.

Chris Norton: 51:14

It was just like it's just a organic friendly campaign. I wonder if they actually got the business that you're working for actually got any work out of it. You know like, because we have this big debate about publicity and, yeah, being talked about yeah even negatively yeah, then people get business out, yeah back to your metric system.

Alex Myers: 51:25

Yeah, yeah, um yeah, but anyway, I enjoyed that to ask. I think Just keep your head down.

Chris Norton: 51:31

Yeah, keep your head down after it.

Vicki Murphy: 51:33

So I loved that marketing mistake. That was probably one of my favourites I've heard so far.

Alex Myers: 51:39

Makes it a little bit less painful.

Vicki Murphy: 51:40

Yeah, I enjoyed it. So, looking to the future, then, what are some of the trends or challenges that you see kind of as some of the biggest things that you're going to have to overcome, going forward over the next 12 months, five years?

Alex Myers: 51:54

I think for me, I think you've got kind of a few quite broad pillars, and then there's various things within them. I think one of them is technology, and whether that's the actual technology itself or discussion around technology and what that means for brands, I think you know, ai being obviously the most sort of potent example of that but I don't think it's limited to that, I think I was going to say the answer could not just be yeah, no, no, I refuse to be that my answer, but I think technology in general.

Alex Myers: 52:24

I think brands need to understand what certain technology advances mean for them. And come to that discussion first. I think you know I'm privileged that I work in a digital agency, so that's already on the cards for us. But I think, to talk more broadly to you know marketers in general, often the kind of reaction is one of like, maybe a little bit of fear, maybe a little bit of like, well, we don't know that this is going to be that big, let's just kind of hope it's not too bad. I think that's not what. What we need to be doing is not necessarily you don't have to embrace it, but you need to know at least what it means for you and create an actual, real approach for that.

Alex Myers: 53:04

Um, and I think the other one, in terms of challenges and trends, I think it's one of kind of what kind of? You know the world is getting more and more complicated. It definitely feels that way. Maybe we just know about more stuff than before. But I think, again, it's what that means navigating. What that means reputationally for your brand is where your brand sits. I think you know there's obviously a massive push for brands to stand for something I don't always necessarily. I think brands should. I think businesses need to stand for certain things, whether it needs to filter into your marketing or not.

Alex Myers: 53:39

I personally don't necessarily think it has to, I think but, it's at least knowing reputationally what you're doing about certain things, certain concerns consumers have, certain concerns society has, and knowing what that means for you and making sure that you're not just being caught on the fly or responding to things you know as you go, actually kind of going right what does this actually mean for us? And having a real strategy to deal with that.

Chris Norton: 54:07

Well, you've been on the show now, alex. Yeah, if you were us, who's the next guest that you'd invite on this show to tell us their marketing mistake that we should learn from?

Alex Myers: 54:16

wow, I don't know.

Chris Norton: 54:17

I think I'm trying I don't know anyone personally who's made a really bad mistake.

Alex Myers: 54:21

No, but who do you think would make a?

Chris Norton: 54:22

good I know, because not many people. That's the weird thing about this show they don't really talk about the mistakes yeah, so it tends to be that this is the one place where they can talk about them yeah, but who do you think would make an interesting guest is basically what we're trying to say. Okay, to give their perspective on the world.

Alex Myers: 54:38

I think for me, I think I mean I'd really like to hear from someone who kind of maybe works for a brand that's reputation is really quite pristine, because I think for me, embracing mistakes, I'd be really intrigued to hear from someone who it doesn't really feel like that mistake really surfaced and not understanding how they managed that, because I think probably what you've learned from my one is that, like, that was quite public and I think marketing is so public that I'd be, because there are certain brands out there that don't seem to miss.

Alex Myers: 55:10

They just seem to all their comms seems to be perfect. Their campaigns tend to be received pretty well. Thank you very much.

Chris Norton: 55:17

Yeah, so maybe this should be the next podcast.

Alex Myers: 55:19

I'll ask you guys, I wish every episode was like that yeah, so I think for me, like you, know, hearing from someone I mean actually, as an extrapolation to that, maybe as well someone who works in an industry where they can't really make mistakes, as well as in like things like health care law. You know those quite serious, yeah, serious. What we call in seo that uh ymyl, so like your money or your life.

Alex Myers: 55:44

That's what it stands for so it's a broad term google uses for any sector where they can't just let any old person rank, because those searches might actually have an implication on somebody's life, your money or your life. Yeah, isn't that?

Chris Norton: 55:56

what Dick Turpin said when he put the gun through the window yeah, don't deliver your money or your. I'm sure that's what he said. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alex Myers: 56:04

So I'd like to hear from a marketing in that scenario, because I think, whereas in businesses that I've worked for, the worst we've got is just kind of like a few disgruntled people and then we kind of just move on. I'd like to hear about a mistake from somebody who maybe works somewhere where that's that's a really good way higher stakes.

Vicki Murphy: 56:19

It's a challenge. Accepted 10 minute um answer with no name.

Chris Norton: 56:23

I work in marketing, it's basically like being a politician so, alex, how can people get hold of you? If they want to find you and get in contact with you? What's the best place to find you?

Alex Myers: 56:32

I mean really my linkedin profile. I'm sort of as a few of my sort of friends and family say I'm on it all the time. Um yeah add me on linkedin and it's where I sort of post random thoughts. I have um things like that. Uh, also, it's probably the. The core of the seo works is on my presence as well. So if you're interested in what I do or what the SEO works does, definitely head to LinkedIn and we'll put you yeah, we'll put you LinkedIn in the show notes.

Chris Norton: 56:56

So yeah, thanks very much for coming on the show, thanks for having me. It's been brilliant.