
Embracing Marketing Mistakes
Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the show for senior marketers who are looking to grow their brand, double their ROI, and achieve record revenue targets.
Each episode features interviews with industry-leading marketers, as well as solo episodes where Chris and Will share real-life examples of marketing screw up and marketing fails and the occasional actionable insight. These untold stories and new strategies will give you the knowledge to avoid mistakes other marketers have made so you don’t have to.
The show is hosted by Chris Norton and Will Ockenden, who collectively have over 45 years of experience in the PR industry. They have built the award-winning PR agency Prohibition, where they help top organisations with PR strategy, social media marketing, media relations, content marketing, and brand awareness to drive sales and grow businesses.
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Embracing Marketing Mistakes
From Zero to 110K Downloads: Master Podcasting in 2025 to Transform Your Brand
Explore the power of podcasting, we discuss why it has become essential in today's marketing world for brands to maximise engagement and ROI. With practical insights and case studies, we reveal how to expose common challenges while crafting a successful podcast.
• Understanding the importance of podcasting for modern marketing
• Crafting a podcast that resonates with your audience
• Effective storytelling and production quality as key components
• The three-stage process: strategy, production, and amplification
• Real-life examples of successful branded podcasts
• Overcoming misconceptions and challenges in podcasting
• The potential for community building and brand authority through podcasts
Curious if your content strategy is ready to crush it in 2025? Let’s find out together! Book a free 15-min discovery call with Chris to get tailored insights that can skyrocket your brand’s growth. Ready to take the leap?
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Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast that enables you to hit record revenue and double your marketing ROI by learning from the glorious mistakes of the world's top marketers. I'm Chris Norton and, as always, I'm joined by my co-host, will Ockenden, and we're here to help you, the senior marketer, grow your brand and achieve record-breaking results by learning from our successes and also our screw-ups. Our podcast has already reached 110,000 downloads, thanks guys, and 350,000 YouTube views, and also our screw-ups. Our podcast has already reached 110,000 downloads, thanks guys, and 350,000 YouTube views. And so today we wanted to dive into one of the most effective tools in modern marketing podcasting. How can starting or refining a business podcast elevate your brand and transform your marketing strategy?
Chris Norton:So in this episode, we're going to unpack why podcasting is the cornerstone of our work here at Prohibition, why business podcasting has become a non-negotiable in today's marketing plans, our three-stage process for crafting a podcast that delivers measurable results, real-life case studies of podcasting success, industry misconceptions and common mistakes that you can avoid all from learning from us, trust me. And finally, why podcasting deserves a spot in your next marketing strategy. So today we're bringing our combined expertise of more than 65 hours of recording and our growing passion to this discussion, offering you practical insights and takeaways that you could implement today. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's explore how podcasting can take your business to the next level. Enjoy, hi everybody. Welcome to Business Podcasting. How to podcast marketing will elevate your business. I'm Chris Norton and I'm here with my business partner, will Ockenden, as always. Hello, will.
Will Ockenden:Hi there, thank you for joining us. So really, I wanted to start by kind of recapping what we anticipate is your likely situation, and this is based on lots and lots of conversations we have with our clients, with our prospects, with brand owners like yourselves. So, when it comes to podcasting, you know it's possible. You've heard of podcasting. It's obviously largely talked about, but you don't really know how it could work for you. You know you can't really make a business case for it. As you know it's a time and effort, uh, investment, and you might be wondering okay, you know what is this podcasting, how could it work for me? And that's a conversation we have a lot. Equally, we, um, you know we often speak to people who would love to start a podcast project, but a lot of it feels too complex and technical. So all the talk of kind of production and cameras and auto cues and post-production just kind of puts people off. And that's really common as well. You know, you think I've got a great idea for a podcast, but I just don't know. Don't know where to start. And the final kind of situational conversation we have with people as well is you know, you might be on board with the idea of a podcast but you've literally got no idea what you talk about or indeed who would actually do it within your organization, and that's really common as well. And it can be quite kind of scary getting on the camera, getting on the microphone and actually delivering a podcast, and these are really really common kind of concerns when it comes to podcasting. And these are all issues we're going to address it's worth mentioning before I go on as well.
Will Ockenden:Throughout this, we refer to business podcasting. Now, we don't mean B2B podcasting. We do mean B2B and B2C podcasting. Really. What we mean is this is about any brand that wants to create a podcast as a piece of branded content in which to engage their audiences. So don't think this is just b2b when we refer to business podcasting. So on, with the webinar, quite a lot to cover today.
Will Ockenden:Like chris said, we're not going to get too technical. We want this to kind of be practical really, and make a case. We're going to make a case why business podcasting is important, and that's going to involve some statistics which we believe are really really compelling. We're then going to talk you through our three-stage process for success, our proprietary process which we've developed at Prohibition, from planning your podcast to creating that content, to then amplifying it to achieve your objectives. And we'll also talk about various case studies, about, you know, what we've done in this space, what other other brands and best in class have done in this space, and then really we'll conclude with other reasons why, you know, including podcast in your next marketing plan is a good idea and by the end of this really we hope you will be on board with the idea of podcasting being a, you know, a sensible and compelling addition to your marketing strategy.
Will Ockenden:So we like to start these with a bit of a definition. So let's kind of look at the Wikipedia definition of what is a podcast. Now, as ever, if you look at Wikipedia, very often it's a bit clunky. So what is a podcast? A digital audio file made available on the internet for downloading to a computer or a mobile device. Made available on the internet for downloading to a computer or a mobile device, typically available as a series of new installments of which can be received by subscribers automatically. So a bit of a mouthful, but just talk to that wall, just talk to that.
Chris Norton:Um, the bbc, when podcasting was about a year or two old, actually changed this. They didn't use the name podcast because, um, they the listener didn't know what a bloody podcast was, so they used to call them digital downloads. So I heard that on the we talked about the other day. When they launched a podcast from years ago, they said they had to call it digital downloads because nobody knew what podcast was and for trivia fans, um, it's obviously called a podcast.
Will Ockenden:It's a coined term because of the of the iPod. I don't know if anyone knows when the iPod first emerged into the market. It was 2001,. Which makes you feel quite old, doesn't it? I don't think it even lasted very long, did it? The iPod? But anyway, that name seemed to stick and the idea that you used to only be able to listen to podcasts on a very limited range of devices, predominantly the iPod.
Will Ockenden:And now the modern face of podcasting is so, so different. I'll talk about this in a moment. It's very much a kind of a multimedia medium. It covers social media, it covers video, it covers audio, obviously, and so on and so forth. So a few kind of statistics which illustrate the size and scale of podcasting today. So this is the number of regular listeners, um, globally, of podcasts, um, and in 2024 that's predicted to be, uh, just over half a billion. So half a billion active listeners, um, and what you can see is, year on year, we're seeing really, really massive increases. So, from sort of 2020, 21, we're seeing nearly double digit increases year on year, and there's reasons for that. We'll talk about predominantly the pandemic, but even today we're seeing, you know, circa 10% year on year increases.
Will Ockenden:So this is very much a mainstream and growing medium and for brands that presents there's a, there's an active and interested listener base. It also presents challenges because it means inevitably, um, there's more people competing for the same, uh, you know, the same share of ears if you like. So you need to make sure you stand out. The same share of ears is that a phrase? Share of ears? We'll go with that, um, what's also quite interesting is that you know, I think it's fair to say podcasting spans virtually every uh interest area and niche. So this is the kind of the number of podcasts per topic or per genre. So society and culture is top, education, arts, business arts, business, religion and spirituality Interestingly, I mean taking business as an example. So that's, you know anything from the FT Management. Today, stephen Bartlett's Diary of a CEO is considered a business podcast. That is about 300,000 different podcasts in business alone. So you really need to think about how you're going to achieve standout if you want to kind of cut through. But equally, there's a, there's a kind of an active audience wanting content around those topics. So a bit of a double-edged sword really.
Will Ockenden:Um, so jumping into a bit of a timeline of podcasting. So 2002, 2003, ish, podcasts were born. I'll talk about the first ever podcast, which is rather dull, um to, to be honest, um, which emerged around that time and then, I think it's fair to say, we had a bit of what we'd call a podcast winter. So there's a lot of hype, particularly around the um, the ipod being released and lots of people started listening to podcasts and um, you know, is is this sort of, you know, the talk of the media. And then people sort of lost a bit of interest in it and I think probably they moved on to other things. Brands who were initially quite engaged with the idea of doing podcasts it's kind of lost their interest.
Will Ockenden:And then a couple of events, in our view, kind of catapulted podcasts back into the kind of the public eye. Um, one thing, and it's not just crime but um, you know, a number of kind of successful genres of podcasts started emerging um, one of which is crime podcasting which, I must admit, everybody at work are obsessed with crime podcasts. There's one called the red-handed podcast which is about different kind of unsolved murders and everybody listens to that. But interestingly enough, crime was one of those genres, that kind of catapulted podcasting back into the mainstream. We then had the pandemic, when people suddenly had an awful lot of time on their hands and, for whatever reason, started rediscovering podcasts. And here we start, seeing these 10, 15 year on year growth. And you know, fast forward to present day. Podcasts are now a part of everyday life. You know, lots and lots of different people listen to them as part of their daily routine and podcasts have moved on infinitely from kind of an audio only medium to something a lot more sophisticated and this is only going to grow and grow and grow.
Will Ockenden:Um, I talked about the kind of the first ever podcast um it conversations with douglas k. So it ran from 2003 to 2012 and it was basically a loose. I talked about the kind of the first ever podcast IT Conversations with Douglas Kay, so it ran from 2003 to 2012. And it was basically a loose collection of academics, of writers, of industrialists, of engineers, who basically broadcast public lectures in various shapes and forms, and it was long running and it was quite successful. But as you can see from the graphics, the branding, you know it wasn't terribly sophisticated. Um, it probably was at the time.
Will Ockenden:But you know, fast forward to today and podcasting is a kind of a you know quite a sophisticated um entertainment medium really and we've got things like the diary of a ceo, which is the um, the number one business podcast in the uk, a top five podcast in all genres in the uk um, which is basically interviews with, with kind of thought leaders with a focus on kind of business and wellness and life and things like that. So you've got this very, very branded presence, very clear visual identity. It is available as an audio recording. It's extensively seeded through social media with these little kind of snippets and vignettes which I'm going to play in a moment. You can get kind of longer form pieces on YouTube and it's become a you know really big production of high quality production values and we'll talk about this later and Chris is going to mention the importance of social media when it comes to amplifying a podcast. But you get these very effective kind of snippets really that drive interest in the show and I'll play this one which is I believe this is Jay Shetty.
Speaker 2:I believe that there are four important decisions that we all get to make in life. The first one is how I feel about myself. The second one is what do I do to make money? The second one is what do I do to make money? The third is who do I decide to love and receive love from?
Will Ockenden:and the fourth is how do I choose to serve the world so very emotional music, high production values, it's almost like a netflix documentary or something like that, and this is really common now. The most successful podcasts absolutely lean into this kind of high production multimedia format. Um, the other big, um sort of trend we're seeing with podcasting is what we'd call the rise of the branded podcast or the, or the rise of the kind of um, you know, the corporate podcast, if you like. So, broadly speaking, um, the individuals who podcast are either traditional publish publishers who have kind of moved into podcasting, so that might be a TV network, it might be the BBC which do an awful lot, it might be a traditional media publisher. You then get your individual kind of thought leaders or experts. So Stephen Bartlett would be a good example of that, jay Shetty, equally a thought leader, an author. So these individuals who have kind of used podcasting as another medium. But the big and quite exciting growth area really is businesses or brands podcasting. So essentially it's another form of content marketing and it's not them just talking about their product, it's them looking at what their audience are interested in and creating engaging, valuable content around that, and that's a really big growth area as far as we're concerned, just to bring that to life, this is a snapshot of the top 10 iTunes chart of business podcasts.
Will Ockenden:So, as I mentioned, diary of a CEO number one you've got traditional publishers. Like I mentioned, there's Martin Lewis doing a piece for the BBC. We've got the FT doing its unhedged piece. But if you look at number three, a book with legs, that's by smeed capital management, which is a personal wealth advisor. So of the top eight, immediately you've got a brand, a business creating content and making it into the top 10 and we're seeing more and more of this. Equally, you look at health and fitness podcasts. You know you've got your kind of uh the bbc, always well represented. You've got someone like andrew huberman, um, the huberman lab, you know, is a kind of a harvard academic, but guess what? Number two, it's zoe, which is um dr tim specter's um gut health company, which is is just absolutely flying at the moment and that's about science and nutrition. So this is something we're going to see more and more and more of as um, you know as uh businesses or brands find engaging uh topics to podcast about and start creating content around that. Equally, you know monster energy and and they're very much kind of leaning into the uh the what what red bull have done with red bull? Uh, you know red bull media house. So they've got the unleashed podcast with uh the what red bull have done with red bull uh, you know red bull media house. So they've got the unleashed podcast with the dingo, danny and brittany, fueled by monster energy. So it's a kind of a light touch branded um podcast where they talk with extreme sports personalities and it's got something like three million subscribers. It's absolutely flying and it's it's huge within its sector.
Will Ockenden:On the other side of the spectrum, um, we have employment law focus from tlt llp. Now you might think the name is incredibly boring and functional and I want you to think about that and think why that might be, and we'll actually talk about that later on. That's a deliberate tactic and equally the biography, the description about what the podcast does, is pretty functional as well. It tells you what they're doing, what, what kind of benefit it will bring you, but it's, you know, it's nothing like the monster energy podcast, but the fact is this is in the top 10 of uh law legal podcasts and it's obviously there for a reason. So anybody can podcast the topic. Um, you know, as long as your audience are sufficiently engaged with the topic, and that's the most important thing. So you might be wondering, great, why should I do this? So there are tangible benefits of podcasting. Um, and really, from our perspective, one of the things we love about it, and what a lot of our clients love about it, is it is one of the most engaging content marketing mediums around.
Will Ockenden:You think about how much attention you get from people. The average podcast might be an hour long and actually Nielsen data suggests that 80% of an audience will listen to all or most of each business podcast episode. So if you think about other content marketing mediums, who can compete with that? You think of a blog post you might get five minutes of somebody's attention. Or a social media post, you might get three seconds of someone's attention, but actually with a podcast you could be getting 50 to 55 minutes of somebody's attention once a week.
Will Ockenden:Trust and thought leadership certainly when we look at the kind of the b2b benefits of podcasting, of which is a big growth area as well, uk b2b decision makers are using podcasts as one of their key mediums in which to get their business related content. So if you want to get in front of the c-suite. If you want to get in front of b2b decision makers, podcasting is the way to do it. And equally, lead generation and this is a really interesting topic actually lead gen, which I'll talk about in a bit more detail, but 77% of marketers find podcasts to be the most efficient content for lead generation. I don't think you can get immediate leads from a podcast, and I'm going to talk about that in a moment.
Will Ockenden:There are a number of challenges, as there is with any medium. Podcasting, broadly speaking, does not have a discovery engine. So, unlike social media, where content will be served to you using complex algorithms, it's a lot harder to actually discover podcasting content. You might look at some charts, you might do a bit of a search, but generally podcasts don't get served to you through an algorithm, so you've got to find ways to get your podcasts in front of people, which Chris is going to talk about. Podcasting is what we call a routine medium, so everybody has a different routine and typically they'll map podcasts against elements of that routine, so that might be the evening run, it might be the morning commute in my case. Now the challenge there is if your podcast gets served to somebody or comes in front of somebody outside of that routine ie in the daytime, out, you know, outside of the commute or whatever it might be then it's quite hard to get them to listen to it or even remember it. So you need to work around that.
Will Ockenden:Podcasting is also what we call a companion medium. So a companion medium is the idea that you use your podcast while you're doing something else, listen to your podcast while you're doing something else. It might be the washing up, it might be the gardening, it might be a run, and that means it's quite hard to get your audience to take an action. So if somebody is washing up and listening to a podcast, you're not going to get them to hit, subscribe or click or purchase or something like that. And finally, it's not an automatic route to roi. So we talk about podcasting and return on investment but generally speaking, a podcast in isolation will not get um, you know, will not get you an immediate return.
Will Ockenden:And chris and I have a lot of conversations with brands who do podcasting and you know some of them have a brilliant podcast with brilliant guests, thousands of listeners, but they're not actually driving leads and there's reasons for that. So really, when it comes to podcasting. We need to make sure our podcast fits within a broader content strategy. So if you imagine that's our sales funnel and that's our core offer, so our core offer might be you know, book a meeting, no-transcript, have snippets from the podcast being talked about on social media to drive traffic to your sales funnel. You might have short form blog content around the podcast, again driving traffic back to your sales funnel. So you absolutely need to think of it as part of this kind of broader content marketing mix A very important one, but definitely part of this broader mix.
Will Ockenden:Okay, chris is going to talk technicalities in a moment. I'm just going to first of all talk about our three stage process when it comes to podcast planning. So hopefully by now you're you're on board with the idea that, okay, podcasting can bring me benefits and, yeah, it could be for me. We're going to talk through our proprietary insight focused approach to coming up with the podcast and ultimately achieving our business objectives. So, ultimately, what we want to do is create content that looks and sounds great but also drives our business objectives. So, ultimately, what we want to do is create content that looks and sounds great but also drives our business objectives, and there's three key areas to this.
Will Ockenden:First is strategy and insight. As with any element of marketing, we need to understand what our objectives are. We need to really understand the topics our audience care about. We need to understand what they care about and how we can solve their problems, and we also need to understand how we can get cut through. Then production, which Chris is going to talk about, and this is about producing brilliant looking content that can operate across a range of channels, and then we need to amplify it. So the days of build it and they will come are sadly gone. We need to work really, really hard to get our content in front of our chosen audience, and when you take this approach, you can start to achieve your business objectives.
Will Ockenden:Okay, so on strategy and insight, first of all, we need our podcast to have a really clear and unique premise. We're going to reference our own podcast here, actually, because we've been on this journey ourselves, but essentially, you've got a few seconds when somebody's scrolling through their chosen search engine to find a podcast and your premise needs to be immediately obvious to your listener. You've got a few seconds to communicate to them who the show is for, what the show will do for them and how it will do it. So we're talking here audience, mission and formats, and I'm going to talk about these in a moment and you've literally got a few seconds to communicate all of these things. And remember the law, the legal example, employment law, updates or whatever it's called. That's. You know that. That's a good example of what I'm about to talk through.
Will Ockenden:So, when it comes to premise, um, we need to know who is the show for and it's worth actually articulating this. And this will start. You know this. This emerges in your kind of description of your podcast. So we would encourage you to be as specific as possible. So you might say, okay, my core audience are senior food and beverage buyers in uk based multiples and large independents, and it's that level of detail that that can be useful. And then think, okay, what value are you going to bring this audience and articulate that as well. So in in this case, we might say we're going to provide insider insight into the latest must have, must have, consumer trends helping supercharge sales. So, straight away, it's really obvious what value we bring our core audience. You might wonder how to do that, and this comes back to the basics of marketing.
Will Ockenden:Again, we need to better understand our audience. So, ultimately, it's about doing our research. It's about understanding what our audience care about, what questions and challenges they've got, and we shouldn't be another voice saying the same thing. We need to understand our audience's pain points, challenges and issues and then our podcast needs to offer them a solution through our content. And there's lots and lots of ways we can do this. If you're an experienced marketer, you will know this. But look at social media insight. Why don't you pull your audience, your database, and actually ask them what their challenges are? You know what. Speak to customer services and see what the 10 most common questions for your brand are. Look at sales trends or data. But the point is we need to understand what challenges or problems our audience have, what interest they've got, and let's answer that through a piece of content.
Will Ockenden:So format I don't need to talk through all of this and there's a fair bit of information here but the point is, the format of a podcast is essentially a way to organize your content. So there's lots and lots of different formats. The top four we tend to see are interviews, solo or monologues, conversations or co-hosts or repurposed content. So if you've listened to socially unacceptable, it's a combination of the interview format and the um, the kind of the co-host format. Now the important thing is choose a format that's right for you and stick to it. I think it's important to have a continuity and people will become used to the format.
Will Ockenden:But also be aware there's pros and cons to each format. So if you do an interview, you've got to remember it's probably your guest that's going to do most of the talking, not you. So you're not going to be able to sell, you're not going to be able to kind of push your own agenda so much. Equally, it will open up your show to new audiences. You can never to their audience. But then the cons, on the other hand, is it's very hard to stand out. You have to find guests and that can be incredibly time consuming finding guests and trying to get them on board with you, and you also might have tech problems. So the fact is, you might be interviewing people in america, different time zones, um, using um slightly rickety internet connections, um, and and the.
Will Ockenden:You know there's pros and cons with each, but the point is find your format and stick to it. Um, and I just wanted to kind of bring that to life now. So you know. You've gone through this process. You've consulted the insight, you've looked at what else is happening in the market and you've got your brilliant premise. You now need a clear name for it that's going to articulate what your podcast is and what it does. Your clear description, which is your kind of elevator pitch to the value um, outlining the value your podcast will bring your audience, and also things like recognisable artwork or logos are really important as well.
Will Ockenden:Now, a good example here that we found Management Today Leadership Lessons podcast. Leadership Lessons podcast is aimed at entertaining, educating and inspiring people to be better leaders. Now, you might think this is rather basic, but it works. It's got what we call a ron seal title. It does exactly what it says on the tin. There's little ambiguity around what leadership lessons is about and, equally, in our description, we've got a really, really clear audience definition. It's about leaders in business and it's about helping them become better leaders, and it just works. And there's really great branding. It's really, really clear and and this is the approach we need to take, certainly from a, from a kind of a business uh, yeah, if we're, if we're brand and we're creating um podcasts not everybody does this, by the way, you might look at the top 10 and think, what's that podcast about? But if you want to kind of scale and grow and succeed in podcasting, this is a really effective approach to take.
Will Ockenden:We've actually gone on a similar journey ourselves. So we've launched the socially unacceptable podcast. Being creatives, we obviously love the name socially unacceptable. It referenced social media. It was a bit funny. Um, you know, we we felt it worked really really well, but actually the reality is it's not entirely clear what socially unacceptable is about. Equally, we've got this description about it, which was a little bit rambling, doesn't clearly illustrate a value proposition. So it covers everything in marketing, but with a twist, and it was very and it has been to date very, very successful. But we knew it could be more successful. So what we're looking at doing is changing it to the Ron Seale approach embracing marketing mistakes so much clearer name in terms of what it actually covers, and then we've got this much clearer kind of description as well. So welcome to embracing marketing mistakes.
Will Ockenden:The podcast is designed for CMOs and heads of marketing with revenues of 15 million who are looking to achieve etc. Etc. Etc. So it offers value. It defines who the audience is and at a glance because, remember, you've got one or two seconds as people are scrolling through the podcast search engine to illustrate what it is about. You can inject a bit of creativity. It doesn't have to be purely functional, but think in terms of these elements when you're coming up with your concepts. Okay, I'm going to stop talking now and ch Chris is going to talk about the fun bit, which is the production. So you've got your great concept. Now it's actually getting three or four people in a room trying to get them to act natural and capturing that content over the course of a few hours.
Chris Norton:So I'm going to talk a little bit about production, a bit about the amplification side of things, because, I'm not going to lie, will and I have been hosting the show for nearly a year. It's a year and two weeks and I'm absolutely obsessed. I've become obsessed with the algorithms, how each platform works. I've broken it down. I've become a specialist in this area because I've just become obsessed with it, not because I want to be the best podcaster in the world, just because I wanted to make sure that we did a best in class product and that we practice what we preach. We've also done several for clients as well and, as you can see, we've been through a bit of a process with what we're doing to make a difference. So I'm going to talk about production. So, in terms of the first bit of what I'm going to talk about is about production. Then it's going to be amplification. So, yeah, the first thing to remember Will touched on this quite a bit is that podcasting is not just an audio medium. It was an audio medium and when you saw Will's graphics earlier and he talked about the pandemic and there was sort of like a podcast winter, well, we've come through the other side of that now, and I believe that that is due to social video, something that we talk a lot about in our future webinars and on the podcast. So in terms of video and how podcasts work, so I've sort of broken it down here.
Chris Norton:You've got one podcast episode brings you multiple types of content. So if you follow us on LinkedIn, you'll have seen that we do a weekly podcast and sometimes bi-weekly. It depends weekly, biweekly. I'm trying to do weekly now because weekly is better and I'll come on to that because regularity is good. But if you create a podcast episode, you do it in audio, so you get episodes uploaded to the podcast platforms straightforward, right. But then you get video. So if you do video and you film the video, you can then have still images. You can have behind the scenes images. You get high quality video and long form, because it can be. Our podcast is between 40 minutes to an hour. We also do a shorter version, which is about 15 minutes, to make sure that was.
Chris Norton:So we could do like little snippets, cause some people just want to listen to a podcast. Um, they might listen to two or three if they're useful, and that's the key. They've got to be useful, um. So, yeah, video is quite. Video is really, really powerful, and basically because of what Will was saying before, in that you know it's there's not a discovery platform. Uh, yeah, you get featured podcasts and, on the various platforms where it's cast box, pocket, pocket, cast apple podcast, spotify they do have featured ones, but and advertising is a way to get discovered, which is, you know, you have to pay and all the big platforms like bbc, and with all the big presenters who you know, you hear them launching them, and they'll push them on their own platforms.
Chris Norton:Another type of uh piece of content that you get from podcasting, though, which is great, is the transcript, and you can get long form written content, so blog posts, basically from the transcript of your podcast, and now, using different types of technology, you can have AI written blog posts that are almost there they're never perfect, by the way and then, finally, you've got owned, have AI written blog posts that are almost there they're never perfect, by the way and then, finally, you've got owned, so, like podcast, landing pages optimized for content capture with value added content, so you can have a landing page from when we're always talking about calls to action. You can have one call to action per show usually and maybe give us a review, which everybody does, you know. Give us five-star review. It'll be nice if everybody says it, but not everybody does it, so it's really powerful. When you do do it, it really means a lot to the host. But one way a call to action you can have is just to have a website dedicated to that podcast. So then let's look at kit. Then I get asked this question quite a bit by clients and people that we would recommend not to work with. If we can't work with somebody, we'd say if you're really starting out, you're doing it for yourself. You're a student or you work in marketing and you're just doing something for yourself like a hobby.
Chris Norton:The basic essentials kit. You can do with something like Google Meet because there's a good end-to-end recording there. You can record a Google Meet interview if you wanted to interview someone over Google Meet and you've got all online. It's reliant, it's as long as you've got a good internet connection, which, trust me, that matters a lot. You can do £10 per month recordings that are saved to Google Drive, so it's costing you £10 a month to do podcasts. You can use your internal mic or you can use the headset, like what Will's wearing today and from that you get an as Live MP4 recording. I'll put that basic, but that's £10 a month, really, really basic. Then you've got Better and I know there's a couple of podcasters on here and different people have got different platforms.
Chris Norton:I'm not saying Riverside is the best in the world because um, it's better than um recording through zoom and other things like that. But riverside, the way that that works is it's a a one-to-one platform and and you can see if you look at the third point it records natively to your machine. So if you're interviewing somebody, if it's if they're not in the studio that way, how we have a lot of our guests in the studio if we're recording somebody out in the us or whatever, or in Australia like we've had a few senior marketers on the show it records you two talking, but it records locally. So even if you've got a bad internet connection and trust me, we have had that scenario and sometimes you're worried but actually on the edit it's fine because it records locally and it downloads to Riverside. At the end of the call there's like a three or four second delay and then it uploads it and it's all sorted.
Chris Norton:And Riverside costs around $15 a month, so not a lot of money, and you can record up to 4K, which is really good quality, and you can use an input from your own camera and your own microphone. Today I'm using a podcast mic here, which is a relatively cheap one just for home for this webinar, and then you've got best, and this is a bespoke setup, so I've put here this is an example, so you can have the kit that we've got. So, to put this into context, I'm going to show you our kit in a minute, but the kit that we've got. I've got a senior video team and I think we've spent more than 50,000 quid on it, your video team and, um, I think we've spent more than 50 000 quid on it.
Chris Norton:Now you don't need all that, but what you do need is a mixing desk. You need at least one podcast microphone per guest. So you and if you have somebody you know you might want two or three. I think we've got four or five in our office um, uh, you want one camera on each guest and then one wide camera, so three cameras if you've got them in the studio. Uh, a studio, uh, preferably we use our boardroom because it's soundproofed. We've got special soundproofing in there. And then you, if you're doing a live which we've done, some linkedin lives, facebook lives, things like that we want to record. You can use a vision max uh vision mixer as well, which can uh, which really helps. Um, so that's for you got. You know your novice, you know your basic, you've got your intermediate person, then you've got your higher end and what that looks like is. This is our boardroom, so you can see here the mixing desk on the table. You can see that there's various cameras. We've got about five or six cameras now all recording in 4K. We can record up to 8K on ours. We can do documentary sort of level and individual microphones. So that's how that looks level and individual microphones. So that's how that looks.
Chris Norton:I just thought that was interesting to see that. I get asked that question quite a lot by clients. So then I've put here the hosts with the most and you've got to take on board how you behave in these podcast situations. And Will and I we did ours and we've been learning on the job and it's been quite interesting to present like this is interesting. To present. A podcast was completely alien, I'm not going to lie. So some of the things that I've put in here are perfect your craft and nobody is an expert right away.
Chris Norton:But I wouldn't say, worry about it too much. If you've got somebody in the business that you think like a thought leader in the business, who is got a bit personality and could be good, maybe test two or three people out with a little bit of a script. Eat and could be good. Maybe test two or three people out with a little bit of a script. And you've got to be mindful of your um intonation, your tonality and, my worst thing, pacing, because I speak quick when I get excited. So when we're interviewing people and, yeah, trying to be um, calm and and pace your and pace your tonality and and the way that you're speaking is key because when you see yourself back you're like, oh god, speak so fast. There's a lot of ums and uhs, but actually it's a conversation and it doesn't really matter. On a podcast we don't need to be overly worried about it is what I'm trying to say.
Chris Norton:Consider what the best in class do. Now Will was showing a few case studies there of other podcasts that he admires Stephen Bartlett I've watched a few of his things and Jimmy Carr was on it a few weeks ago. He's taken the mickey out of Stephen Bartlett saying this isn't a bloody business podcast, is it? It's more of a health and wellness one now, which is very true. He's moved from, but he still claims it is a bit business, because health and wellness is part of business. So we'll let him have that. But consider what the best in class do I mean by that?
Chris Norton:How do they interview? How do they structure their show, if you're you know, depending on what your show is going to be about, how do the best in class interview um? Is there? Is there a clear introduction at the beginning? Who's it for? What's the show going to give them? Uh, look at how they interview people. Look at how they listen to people. That's another thing you've got. To let the person speak can be difficult with an internet connection sometimes. So just to take a look at how other people interview and then be critical when you've done your first two or three, listen back to yourself, sound on and then turn the sound off if you've got a video and write down what you see, take a good look at how you behave, um, because I've done that and I've changed the way I behave quite a bit um will will rustling your notes and slamming um, slamming a coffee cup down on the table every time I bang my bloody knee on that table.
Chris Norton:And also, uh, do you remember will, when you kept wearing the same gray shirt for the for the last four podcasts and and we pointed it out, and you didn't wear that one again.
Will Ockenden:yeah, well, I mean, and and it is uncomfortable watching yourself back but you really can improve, can't you, if you pick up on these strange visual tics or non-verbal features that you've got, and you can improve. It's not about being a robot, it's just about kind of honing your craft, and it does take time.
Chris Norton:Yeah, something else that takes time is getting guests on the show. So you'll probably want to build up your top-tier guests and, looking at who you've got, don't underestimate how hard it is to get guests and booked up and get the dates working and everything. But when you're looking for guests things that we look at social reach how influential are they? Have they done TEDx? Have they got an opinion? Are they somebody that's got an opinion who can share something? Because, at the end of the day, they're coming on your show and giving you their added value? Um, what's their personal agenda? What message do they want to get across? We've got quite a few authors coming on the show. Obviously, they want to talk about their book and we want to grill them a little bit about that, but we also want to find out about their marketing fuck-ups, because that's what our show's about. Um, what are their political views? Do you want to talk about that on the show? Is that something that's of interest to you? Um, how relevant are they to your audience? So, now that we've been going on almost 12 months, we get pitched to. We want to come on your marketing podcast and I had someone um pitched to me last week and they were a cfo and I was like I don't understand. I didn't understand why they wanted to be on a marketing podcast. It was basically just to do an advert for their product. So I declined it.
Chris Norton:You know you need people to be relevant to your audience. They're going to add value. What speaking skills have they got and experience? They might have a great CV, but can they actually talk and talk clearly and interestingly? Have they got a lot of personality or are they a little bit dull? And then broader benefits of connecting? Would it be useful if you guys connected? Can they introduce you to other people? Is it going to help you grow?
Chris Norton:The show Will, and I use I interview people on our show and I'll pick people I know on LinkedIn or whatever. For instance, the next person I want to interview some expert on YouTube. I'd really like to grill right down into what makes the algorithm work in you know in finite detail, a real, true expert, because I do a lot in YouTube but I'd like to speak to a proper expert. So that leads me nicely to amplification. So amplification is the third step in our framework, but it's one of the most important because it unlocks the potential of your podcast. You can create a hundred podcasts, but if you have not optimized your podcast and done it correctly and structured following Will's structure that we just talked about earlier, then people will find you, but it won't be a half as many as would find you if it was obvious, clear about what the show's about. Same with your introduction and how you're introducing the show, what it brings and what it's about. It's not just an advert for your company, although it can be if you do it correctly. So the unlocking potential of your podcast, the benefits of a well-amplified podcast, is you're going to reach a broader audience. You're going to drive traffic to your website. You can improve customer engagement. You can establish your brand as an authority in the industry, similar to what we've done with ours, and it can also create better opportunities for sponsorships and partnerships with various other brands that you've never even thought of.
Chris Norton:We're going to cover a few of the amplification strategies in a minute. I'm going to walk you through two or three of the strategies, a bit about what Will was talking about earlier. I'm going to go into a little bit more detail about technically what you can do, but I've done loads. I've probably spent a lot on advertising, but I've been testing little bits of advertising out different marketing, press releases, seeding, influencer marketing, all sorts of things to grow up and I've been testing to see what's. You know, I've spent hours trying to figure out which bit works best Setting goals for your podcast reach.
Chris Norton:So what goals have you got? It's essential to set the goals I've put here, that, whether it's increasing your listener base, boosting downloads of the pod, enhancing audience interaction, so getting more people to interact with you, it'll all help you to track your success of how you're doing so. A good example of that is I was obsessed with getting into the top 10. We did that in the first two months, even though, as Will's pointed out, social and acceptable doesn't say what the show is about. It's a cool thing. We thought, oh yeah, cool, cool, creative brand name. But actually the new name is very explicit it's about marketing failures and fuck-ups, mistakes. That's what our show is actually about and that's why people listen to it. So to bring that to the fore is what we're going to be doing, so crafting compelling content.
Chris Norton:Then, um, it's so important to get your content quality good because, at the end of the day, the show you live and die by your show and if you interview someone that's boring and dull it's probably better to not post. I heard Stephen Bartlett talking about this. He said he'd had four episodes. He'd interviewed people and they didn't think it was up to the standards so they didn't produce them. But the good thing about doing a podcast is it's recorded right so you can record it. You can do like we interview some people sometimes for an hour and a half and we'll chop it down to 30 minutes. If they're a little bit boring, we try and cut it down. Content quality is key. You want the nuggets of what you think the value is to your audience.
Chris Norton:Storytelling techniques something that I need to get better at, and I think every person that presents on a podcast telling stories that's what people are interested in. They're interested in how you've done what you're. You're probably listening to me talking about how we've done our podcast and that's because I'm telling a story about the journey that we've been on. We went from nothing to 60. I think it's 68 000 downloads we're on now and I'm just obsessed with the numbers and looking at how, how they grow, and it's the stories that help tell the most interesting bits of the show, so like, for instance, all the clips that you'll see on our YouTube.
Chris Norton:If you go on the YouTube, a lot of the shorts like short videos, youtube shorts a minute. 90% of them are the stories about when they fucked up, because that's interesting and, truthfully, that's what people are after the stories, guest interviews and collaborations. So if you've never done an interview before, you probably have, because if you work in marketing, you're naturally inquisitive. That's what most of us in marketing are. But, trust me, it's very different interviewing people over a podcast, isn't it Will? How have you found interviewing guests? Do you think you've got better at it?
Will Ockenden:Yeah, definitely, I think it's doing your research pays pays dividends, doesn't it? And I think what was really really important, you know, and it's we. I remember once we interviewed an author and we both made a point of reading her new book, um, which is fantastic, by the way, um, and it's. It is time consuming, but it means just, you know and you can. You can write questions, you can have interesting story and talking points, um, but yeah, it's a craft that you, you get better at over time, undoubtedly, um, equally, I think your guest has to play their role as well, and some guests know the score and they're very good at engaging, and they, they're good at the kind of the small talk. Other people are like a rabbit in the headlights, aren't they? And it's really important to get the right type of guest as well, with the right type of experience yeah, and I suppose our show is irreverent.
Chris Norton:We were that's what and what somebody called our show. They said it's really irrelevant. Irreverent. The fact that will, and I give away value. But we have a bit of a laugh with it because I didn't want it to be a boring podcast that you don't want to listen to. B2b business podcasting sounds dull. So I wanted to make a show that was interesting and actually will. I top trumped you there. Look at that. That's our guest in a few weeks time and I'm already reading her books. I'll give you that whenever. So that just shows you the work you've got to put in to make. I'm highlight you can see the highlighter um, just to make sure that you're asking interesting questions about what that person's about. So will's very, very um is accurate there in saying that you sort of have to do a little bit of.
Will Ockenden:A little bit of research goes a long way yeah, and equally, if you're a consumer brand, you know you wouldn't just talk about your product every episode, would you? You know, it's about finding, like I said, finding those stories um interviewing interesting people yeah, absolutely yeah, and then you've got consistency in publishing.
Chris Norton:So what I mean by that is regularity. So don't do a podcast. Do two episodes. Do one three weeks later, then one three weeks after that. Plan it out. So the key thing, a great thing to do, is to launch with three episodes ready in the can. I think we're always working. We're actually working with six in the can at the moment, and I'm trying to get that down to three, because I think six is too far ahead. We're actually too far ahead all the time, so you need to stay topical and relevant. So that's what consistency really matters in podcasting, though, what I've noticed is the more you post, the more you post your podcast, the higher up the rankings you're going to go in a particular period. So a weekly podcast, for instance, will do well, but twice weekly does even better, but I wouldn't say you need to ever do it more than that. Starting out bi-weekly is fine, but if you want to start getting into the charts, you want to be thinking about doing weekly as well. So I'll just show you this is amplifying your podcast with video. So this is just to show a couple of examples of the different types of content you can get from one hour interview. So here you go.
Chris Norton:The latest research says that almost two-thirds of job seekers are seeking fully remote roles. What's your experience of that? Fully remote roles? Because you mentioned it earlier but you didn't go into it much Like is it fully remote? Or because you remember you mentioned it earlier, we didn't go. You didn't go into it much like is it fully remote or is it? Is it a hybrid? Or is it because you were saying that senior people want people back in the office and the generation millennials or gen z? So I have far too many questions and gone for too long there, but it is a quite. And then there's another one here that it's an actual story there.
Speaker 4:Watch this one and I'm walking with david cameron to the tent and uh about to brief him on like the lines, just to make sure he remembers it was all about civilian casualties. It was a really serious topic yeah um, and then, on the way to the tent, he's like ah, you know, I haven't got time for this, I've got to do these other things instead what to get all the journalists are in there, they're ready to go satellite.
Speaker 4:Then comes book for live broadcast across afghanistan. So I walked into the tent. When I called across the interpreter, I said like david cameron isn't coming, it just rushed from from the stations they're at. Grab the cameras, grab them. My cameras are in my face, red lights are on and I'm like, oh, they think I'm david cameron so we had to pretend to be david cameron.
Chris Norton:And then there's a full episode here as well, which, um, I won't play for you, but it's got the intro. I'll show you a little bit of the intro. You can see you've got like a music, we've got some images and it tells you welcome to socially unacceptable.
Speaker 4:What shows about the fame? The marketing podcast that celebrates the professional mishaps, mistakes and misjudgments, while delivering valuable marketing and life lessons in the time it takes you to eat your lunch so all these things are being posted.
Chris Norton:So shorts are really. Shorts are the most popular piece of content on youtube at the moment. So shorts are under one minute but but they're really really powerful so you can get a story in a short. It can really be really really clever, so you can amplify your podcast with video and the benefits of video podcasting. So, yeah, I think that's where the growth's really come from. Audio podcasting was doing okay and it sort of plateaued out. But once video got involved, people started to find it on TikTok. So the growth of TikTok people were finding clips on TikTok.
Chris Norton:Two minutes, the one minute, as I say, that's where YouTube shorts have come from. The benefit of the algorithms serving interesting content is what we've got. And then creating engaging video content so you can create content that's really really interesting and that people will find. They can also find the longer form on your YouTube channel so you can have the short Delivering in Discovery and people will find the longer form and come and watch and subscribe to your channel. And obviously, to do that, you have to optimize YouTube for podcast discovery. So you need to be optimizing your titles with tags. But it's quite, it's quite straightforward. Just think about how people are searching and youtube is the second biggest search engine. It's owned by the first biggest search engine, google and then repurposing content and into videos is um is really useful as well. So you can put your your podcast content into other videos, so you can take clips out and and show um how your podcast is growing and demonstrate it. It gives you content for like PowerPoints and all sorts of bits and pieces, and then you can optimize your podcast for SEO. So what we mean by this is so people can find search and find your video in different places Because, as Will said, people can't find your podcast, just it's not delivered to people.
Chris Norton:It's got to be discovered and the only way that people are really discovering it is through search. So if you search for marketing mistakes socially unacceptable does come up now. So if you've got, if you've optimized your podcast for certain phrases, you'll get an increased podcast discovery. You'll get higher rankings on search engines. So you should pop up on Google because obviously YouTube and everything is all interlinked. You get a better user experience because if people are searching for something, they find your podcast and it's relevant to what they're searching for. Then they get a better user experience and it attracts a broader audience because they're finding what they're looking for Really really powerful. And then also you can leverage social media for discovery. So that's where the podcast growth's come from. It's come from the massive growth of TikTok as well.
Chris Norton:But people can find you through social media, so they find the video. I hope they might see that clip of the guy talking about David Cameron or my rambling question, question, uh, about hybrid or remote working and, um, they see the show and they think, oh, that sounds quite interesting. And then they click the thing and you go to the main youtube channel. You can watch the whole thing and then they actually this is really interesting, I might subscribe, see, it's just taking people on a different discovery journey rather than being um, uh, rather than being subscribed to other things.
Chris Norton:70% of people discover new podcasts on social media. So, yeah, that's quite clear. 70% of people are finding new podcasts on social media. They're not really even finding them on podcast platforms. So the key is to choose the right platform and we've got advice. A lot of people are trying to try every channel. I would say try one channel first and get it right. Try one channel, do it right, do it well and engage with people rather than just broadcasting, and grow that channel. Initially, for us it's been. We use it on our personal LinkedIn. Tiktok's really big for our show and then Twitter and obviously YouTube has been massive because of the clips of the video and then you can create shareable, interesting, fascinating content little short clips or longer clips but for social media, short, sharp, punchy clips can pull people in and obviously you can engage with followers. You can ask people what do they think and you do get feedback, which is quite useful for when you do your next interview.
Chris Norton:Um, collaborations and guest appearances. So, yeah, the number one driver of listeners to people's shows, to other, to your podcast, will be guest appearances. So you appearing on relevant shows that have got decent audiences, that is the number one driver of downloads organically, and so the benefits of collaborations are key. If you collaborate with somebody that's relevant to you, that is brilliant. Um, we, um.
Chris Norton:We did an interview with a guy called paul paul sutton, who's actually um on this webinar. Today he's got his own podcast called digital download and we interviewed him about his um, about his life. We asked him about his life, we asked him about his biggest fuck-ups. He told some great stories, and what a kind thing he did. He then shared our episode on his Digital Download podcast feed and that really helped with downloads for us, because obviously people that were listening to that show saw our show and said, wow, that's really interesting, and then subscribed. So that was a great thing to do.
Chris Norton:So you can. Then you can find the right partners. You can cross promote episodes so you may hear and what we mean by that is when you hear people say, oh, I've been listening to this podcast, check it out, it's really good, because of X, y and Z, you can do it to them and they do it to you. That's called crossoting. Or, similarly, you can do what I said we did with Paul Sutton, which is where somebody can feature your episode on their show and that's fine. If you both agree to it, that can be a really great and powerful thing.
Chris Norton:And then guest appearances on other podcasts. As I say, this is the number one thing to do if you want to drive organic downloads of the show Appearing on other shows. But they've got to be relevant and they've already got to have an audience, otherwise you're just going to be wasting your time. So what are the big podcasting mistakes then Clicking the wrong way is the first one, not playing the long game. So 90% of podcasts don't get past episode three Of those left. So 90% of people quit after the third episode. Of those left, 90% quit after 20 episodes. That is a fascinating start. I've seen it a lot. So a lot of people give up after episode three, mainly because you don't get tons of engagement. You don't hear a lot, you just see the downloads. Mainly because you don't get tons of engagement, you don't hear a lot, you just see the downloads.
Chris Norton:Not having a clear and creative concept. A clear structure is critical so you can organize and stay focused, making it easy for your listeners to follow your content. So be clear, have a clear structure. Without a structure, your podcast can quickly become a rambling trust me, I know about this a rambling chat that's just not very focused.
Chris Norton:You've got to try and stick to a format to keep the audience engaged, not publishing frequently enough. I could touch on this earlier. If you can publish weekly is great, but bi-weekly is a great way to start. Regularity is key, as the average listener looks forward to episodes on a schedule. So if Will was talking about people listening in the gym and going for a walk. People are creatures of habits humans so you're losing potential regular listeners. So weekly as a minimum it can be really useful. So that's why it's good to record a few before you launch the official show.
Chris Norton:I think Publishing twice weekly can increase your listeners. And this is the latest stats. They have a 20 to 30% higher download rate than weekly podcasts. So that means you can fly into the charts if you're doing really really well there. But it's a lot of work, so I'm not suggesting you should, I'm just giving you the stats Overselling. Make sure you're relevant or you'll turn your audience off so straight relevant to your audience. Think about who your audience is. A recent YouGov study reported that one in seven listeners 14% find ads in podcasts interesting and not interruptive, while two in five skip them altogether, which is interesting. I heard that one of the biggest podcasters said that they removed ads from their show and their audience complained because their ads were so relevant to their audience. So I think that's the key is to be relevant with your ads in a show.
Will Ockenden:And I think the best podcasts are so good at ads, they weave them into the style and the fabric of the show, don't they? So if you, you know you almost don't notice they're an ad, um, and they, they, you know they'll talk about a piece of branded content, and I think there's a lot of podcasts that do that really really well. So, you know, running those ads in your own podcast style, I think, is the way to go.
Chris Norton:Yeah. So if there's anyone offering luxury villas in Dubai, will and I are interested. Yeah, exactly Five reasons to start podcasting this year. Then why do it? Well, it expands your reach and engagement. It can build some real brand authority and trust. We've already had four or five clients off the back of it and people saying they listen to the podcast and come to the webinars. Obviously, but it's just a different type of medium and it can enhance your brand personality. People can see you in a different light. They can listen to you. You know you don't have to be all formal because, like, webinars are quite formal for a start, but a chat is very different to, um, uh, all other types of format when you've just worked with somebody. So it can really help with the brand personality.
Chris Norton:Cost-effective content marketing it's multiple. Will said it was one type of content. Actually, it can be your sort of content engine for so many different things. As I showed earlier, it produces short content, long content, blog posts, tweets Everything can be done with AI now as well and then opportunities for collaboration and networking. You can invite people that you always wanted to speak to on your show. It's brilliant. I've got some right people coming up on the show. So that's sort of a whistle-stop tour around our framework.
Chris Norton:We do do a pack that we do for clients. We've done two or three of these in the last few months. We've got like three spots available but they're quite time consuming to do. But what we do is we've got like a we use the framework to develop for clients. So we've got a podcast concept development where we'll help you develop your concept, get it right, make sure it's optimized correctly and ready to go. We do studio based full service production so we'll help you develop your concept, get it right, make sure it's optimized correctly and ready to go. We do studio-based full-service production. So we'll do all the setup. We bring all our £50,000 worth of kit. We'll bring a lead producer, an editor. We'll do a full podcast, edit audio and visual, including full-length edit, social snippets, everything per five of the episodes, and we'll do all the uploading and publishing to all the key platforms. So basically, we take away all the hassle from you to do the show. We ask, we work with you to get the show right, and that's. We've got three spots this year. We're not doing any more than that because it's just it's, it's quite. It's quite a bit to do for. But it's good fun, because I love um working on something when it's at the embryonic stage. We're just the one for a financial client and we're about to launch that in about six weeks, so that will be fun. And then this second part of what we offer on podcasts might be quite interesting to you. So we've got something that's called Podcast Amplification. So this is usually offered in association with once we've worked with somebody on the other bits, but this just gives you a feel for what we can do Because of once we've worked with somebody on the other bits, but this just gives you a feel for what we can do We've got because of the amount of marketing I've done in this area. We've figured out how to do various bits where we can guarantee some things. So, for instance, we can guarantee for just under 5,000 pounds that we can get you 4,000 high quality subscribers to your podcast within the first four. It says four weeks. Four to six weeks depends on how popular a show is but we can't, we don't stop um. It's part of the platform that we use, um but we can guarantee you 4 000 minimum subscribers, which is about 10 000 downloads over the four weeks if we do a weekly show and we'll do, we'll help you do your audience targeting with that. We'll do a press release to promote your podcast, to get your awareness with it. Some website um, intro, uh, blog post type content as well for five episodes, and then some social snippets, um, for all your social channels. A bit of account management and making sure we record it all so you get what you pay for. You know. Basically a proper roi on podcasting. So thanks for seeing you and we'll catch you later.