Chris Norton: 0:04

Welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast where we help you smash revenue targets by asking the world's best marketers to reveal their biggest mistakes and what they've learned from them.

Chris Norton: 0:15

I'm your host, chris Norton, and today I'm excited to introduce Nikki Dixon, asda marketing veteran turned head of brand and marketing at Leeds Building Society. Nikki's 20-year career has spanned retail, hospitality and now finance, from delivering groundbreaking initiatives like Asda's Plastic Unwrapped Manifesto, a redefining rebrand for Daniel Thwaites, to launching Leeds Building Society's first ever strapline as part of its biggest brand campaign in nearly 150 years. In this episode, we take a look at Nikki's incredible career journey and what it's like to work for one of the longstanding heritage brands in Yorkshire. We also ask her about her key advice for marketers and how to successfully market across several different industries. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's learn about what you need to build a brand's trust always sit back, relax and let's learn about what you need to build a brand's trust.

Chris Norton: 1:13

Nikki Dixon, welcome to the show. So you've had quite a varied career, so you've got a degree and so you're a lot of people that get into marketing don't do degrees in marketing. And you did something you did. Did you was your degree in retail management. It was. Why was that? Yes?

Nikki Dixon: 1:24

Why did you do that? Well, there's a bit of a story behind this, okay. So when I was a lot younger, I got a job at Boots the Chemist, okay, and a Saturday job, and the bit that I really loved was helping in the pharmacy. So I used to help I mean, this was in the days when actually probably I shouldn't say it, but you know from a regulation point of view so Saturday assistants could assist yeah the pharmacist, as long as, obviously, it was all then signed off by the pharmacist, okay, um, so I thought that's what I wanted to be.

Nikki Dixon: 2:01

I want to be a pharmacist. I then decided to take maths, chemistry, physics and biology at a level wow, to become a pharmacist physics at a level yes, right, you've gone up in my estimations.

Chris Norton: 2:16

I mean, that's amazing physics. I couldn't have done physics.

Nikki Dixon: 2:18

I'm probably about to come down in your estimation because they were my weakest subjects at gcse, so but I thought you know what? That's fine, I can do it. So six months into my a levels, I thought do you know what? I've tried this really hard, and it was when I did a physics um paper that was a written paper that I got my highest grade that I thought you know what that's? That's because it's written. It's not about the science.

Nikki Dixon: 2:45

It's about the writing. I think I might have made the wrong decision about my career. So when I thought about it I thought do you know what? Yeah, I've really enjoyed the pharmacy bit in terms of helping, but actually it's the retail side. I really loved being in the store. You know the buzz of the environment. So I decided do you know what? I'm going to take six months out and I am going to go back and I changed my A-levels and then went and did retail management. But what A-levels did you do then if you didn't do physics? So I kept chemistry Okay, Because actually that was really fun, because that's the bit where you get Bunsen burners and chemicals and reactions. And I ended up doing then general studies, geography, business studies and chemistry.

Chris Norton: 3:31

And then into uni to do retail management? Yes, because I always think that retail management you'd be like working with well, which leads nicely to where you did go, but like having worked. I worked at Asda when I was at university as a side and a lot of the people that did retail management would become store managers and stuff. And Asda had a path Asda, sainsbury's and things like that. Did you find that a lot of people on your degree were doing with that route and is that why you ended up at Asda?

Nikki Dixon: 3:56

Yeah, well, it's really interesting because most of my friends didn't then go out and work in retail. Okay, so they went and worked for some of the big brands, um, I mean, a couple did because when I graduated aldi had come to the uk, um, and you know that was it was really interesting time doing retail, because it was when aldi had arrived, little arrived, and it was such a I remember doing my dissertation on discounters because actually then it was quite a big thing because, people hadn't really heard of these stores and they were coming in and really disrupting.

Nikki Dixon: 4:31

So a couple of people did go and work for aldi. But I actually um following uni we'd I, we started a business and that was probably my first introduction into marketing because fresh out of uni I was the communications director for great title.

Nikki Dixon: 4:52

Straight up, I was like look at me, look at me for we started a business called smart students because, also, whilst I was at uni and I'm really showing my age here the world wide web was created and became a thing. So it was that time when people were creating websites, yeah, and we did the whole thing on um helping students at university and I mean it was really good. So we had representatives. It was all down south, because I was at university in Surrey and we'd won a business case at uni as part of our final module, so we'd won a bit of funding. So we said, right, we're going to do it. And it was brilliant and it was such a learning.

Sinead Morrissey : 5:38

But it was really, really hard because I was still living in leeds straight after uni, I wouldn't have had a clue how to run a business I don't think we really did.

Nikki Dixon: 5:45

I still don't. Well, I I think you know it was we did loads and we and we got it all set up and it was fantastic. But I think we had this whole dream that actually we're going to sell for millions you know that was us and sort, so I, we stopped the business and that was when I thought, oh my god, I've got so much debt from uni because also we hadn't got much money in this business and I was traveling and all of this.

Nikki Dixon: 6:15

So I actually went to a recruiter to get a job in marketing and they offered me a job in recruitment right so I was then um recruiting for marketeers, learning more about marketing, because it was building on from my degree, because marketing, you know, was an element of my degree. Um, but that's what led me to asda, because I actually was recruiting for a business called gratipan who um?

Chris Norton: 6:43

yeah, now agency, weren't they?

Nikki Dixon: 6:44

yes, yeah. Now creative race. And they did. They had the ASDA account, so I recruitment wasn't for me.

Chris Norton: 6:54

I decided that you didn't do that thing where you're going. I'm recruiting for this position, but actually I've got a very good CV from this person what I did.

Nikki Dixon: 7:04

Do I just felt I was really brave and. I just sent my CV to them and I got a job which was brilliant at what we call Gratz oh, so you got the job at Gratter Palm, not at ASDA no, yes sorry, yes so I got the. I was thinking you had to fill in that, because I filled it in the ASDA. No, yes, yes.

Chris Norton: 7:24

Sorry. Yes, so I got the Because I was thinking you had to fill in that ASDA, because I filled it in the ASDA questionnaire and it was about eight, nine pages.

Nikki Dixon: 7:28

It's crazy to fill in. Well, I do that, and they rejected me the first time.

Chris Norton: 7:32

It took me ages, yeah, but honestly, the application forms to get jobs like in those proper.

Nikki Dixon: 7:51

It's not that, isn't it? Rather than just sending your cv on these days, click it on a linkedin, apply or yeah, well, I, you know, I sent my cv to grass palm, um, just on the off chance, and then got a job with them on the asda account, uh, and it was a couple of years later that I then moved across to asda. So, yeah, that was my whole. You know, when you think there's a bit of a, at the time it felt really hard because recruitment wasn't for me. I'm just, it's just not me at all.

Nikki Dixon: 8:10

And that felt really hard because we'd gone through the business piece, yeah, straight out of uni into a business. It was a real whirlwind. And then I need a job, get a job. It's not the right job. What am I going to do? Let's a job, get a job. It's not the right job. What? Am I going to do.

Chris Norton: 8:29

Let's try send my cv and it's like that then started my whole career in marketing, so it was the asda in-house training then was it good amazing.

Nikki Dixon: 8:36

I mean going across to asda. I. I often talk to people about I grew up in Asda.

Nikki Dixon: 8:43

It was yeah 16 years were you yeah, I really grew up, that's a great yeah um, yeah, it was brilliant and I think what was fantastic was the variety of stuff that I got to do, but the own brand stuff was where I really you know that's where I absolutely found this passion for brand um. But yeah, it's just if you talk to people who have worked at Asda, you know that's where I absolutely found this passion for brand um.

Nikki Dixon: 9:05

But yeah, it's just if you talk to people who have worked at Asda, you know there's a real thing brand affinity there is, um, yeah, we used to say, and it's, that's really sad, but it's like, cut you open and you're green inside because you are absolutely like, loyal to the brand. Yeah, and it was just the way that we operated behaviours. You know the things that we used to do. It was such a great place to be.

Chris Norton: 9:40

And going out into the big wide world after Asda. That was scary. I mean where Sinead and I are sat now, the big wide world of you going from Asda. Literally you could throw a stone to Asda house from here and to where you are now, so you literally went about 100 yards. Is that fair well across the river in?

Sinead Morrissey : 9:56

between? Did you swim?

Nikki Dixon: 9:58

I should have done. In between, though, the big wide world, I went to Blackburn.

Chris Norton: 10:05

Where.

Nikki Dixon: 10:05

Blackburn, blackburn. Yeah, what took you there? So that's when I went from retail to hospitality.

Chris Norton: 10:12

Okay, oh for Thwaites. Yes, right, okay, yeah.

Nikki Dixon: 10:21

So, actually it was well, I left.

Chris Norton: 10:22

Asda, with nothing to go to. And actually my question I've got here here is tell us about the change between roles from asda to thwaites. Look at that, you don't.

Nikki Dixon: 10:29

I don't even have to ask the question, I know um, yeah, I left asda and then I was told about the role at daniel thwaites. Yeah, um, and I thought so. They're in the ribble valley, which is they used to be Blackburn Centre, and then moved to the Ribble Valley, which is in Lancashire, yorkshire. Lass going to Lancashire, how on earth would that work? But actually I had a couple of conversations and then went to meet them and just fell in love with the place. Such a fantastic place to be, but hard because I was away.

Nikki Dixon: 11:09

Um, so I was you moved to live, to live in Blackburn, no so I then because I've got two little girls, uh, but made the decision this was pre-covid okay made the decision.

Nikki Dixon: 11:18

Do you know what this is going to be? A fantastic, uh, career move for me, and what's really important to me is that I really feel that a business aligns to my values. Yeah, it's for me and that's. That's something I've learned through my career. It's great. Yeah, I understand why people move, but I think you you've got to be really clear on why you're going to move to the place Because you spend too long at work to be somewhere that actually you're not going to enjoy or you know it's not going to align with who you are personally, and Thwaites really fit with that. But yeah, I stayed living in Leeds but ended up being away quite a lot. Were you in Leithes five days a week then, if it was pre-COVID, no, so I tended to be in three days a week. But because it's hospitality.

Chris Norton: 12:09

I got to stay in the most beautiful places.

Nikki Dixon: 12:10

They didn't put you up in the hotels. Yeah, all the different ones. So where they?

Sinead Morrissey : 12:14

look. Very nice, we were having a look, yeah, before this call, before this chat, so yeah, pubs and hotels, yes, and a brewery how many have you got?

Nikki Dixon: 12:24

So they have got about 24 hotels and inns, and then they had around 250 pubs.

Chris Norton: 12:32

Wow, Wow, that's quite a big group yeah a brewery.

Nikki Dixon: 12:37

In my team I had four Shire horses Amazing, Just Shire horses on site In your your team.

Chris Norton: 12:46

You had four horses and what did? Three?

Nikki Dixon: 12:49

horsemen. So because the brewery dated back to 1807 and then it was all you know, it was all horsepower, so they'd still got no beautiful carts that they used to transport beer. So part of yeah, it's part of tradition for their company, uh, for horses, and we used to use them for promotions. They'd go out. They support the pubs, but they're on site so you could just go and I mean, I love horses anyway, you're in a, you do eventing, don't you? Yeah, well I've.

Nikki Dixon: 13:23

Yeah, I volunteer to watch people event yeah don't do it myself now, um, but yeah it was. It was fantastic, but I think the really interesting thing was going from such a massive corporate, because when I was at asda it was walmart owned yeah going from that you know, one of the world's largest businesses, to a family-owned business were you there when that happened? With walmart.

Chris Norton: 13:49

Yeah, uh, yes, right, okay yeah, so that was a big because archie norman was there, he was the ceo and, um, then the guy that's just gone back is it alan layton has just gone back.

Chris Norton: 13:59

Yeah, which is really interesting because, as as do for those, you're right every if you cut people down the middle. Um, those of you that weren't there, when I weren't there, I mean, I was only working there part-time and we had extensive training like every week. There would be different types of training and you felt like you were part of a team. You had team huddles and everything. It was quite good with all that, but I don't know what it's like today. And the fact that the it's owned by a family, compared because walmart's a massive, massive, the biggest in the world, isn't it pretty much? Um, and now that it's owned by a small well, not a small family, but a family, it's family owned. And they've brought back alan late and it'll be interesting to see. Yeah, they can get that magic back, because do you think I mean I don't want to say it too loudly because they're only across over the way but is it, do you think it's lost a bit of its magic and it's on its way back? Is that? Is that fair?

Nikki Dixon: 15:18

yeah, I think, uh, I mean, I've still got really good friends who are asda, um I think they can get it back oh my, do as well yeah, I think they have lost their way.

Nikki Dixon: 15:31

Thinking about some of the things that were always really true to asda are things that they'd moved away from, but I think to really understand what is their place in the market, yeah, and, and focus on that will is where they need to be, um, and they're bringing more people back, so people who were there when I was there it's interesting looking at who's going back. Um, yeah, I think I think they'll definitely get there. It will take a while, but, yeah, alan layton, he was there before I was there, but the way that people talked about him, you know it, was that it was always about, you know, that era yeah.

Nikki Dixon: 16:10

Because it absolutely did the right thing.

Chris Norton: 16:14

Yeah, it was all the TV campaigns and I'm not going to do the. I am the pocket tap. Yeah, the pocket tap. And then it became the smart price and then I remember the first wobble they had because it was smart price. It was like and they used to do that and it was all about saving money. And then there was like a campaign and they changed it and they tried to compete with um and this one you might remember this they tried to compete uh with um.

Nikki Dixon: 16:38

Obviously, food and drink with uh m&s they tried to go a bit more premium. So yeah, the advertising campaign.

Chris Norton: 16:44

It's got to be oh, you've got a good memory and so they changed the strategy and again they had a bit of a wobble there and I think that's kind of where we are again now. I think it's a great brand and it's lost its way a little bit, but it's a great Leeds brand.

Nikki Dixon: 16:59

That's why you're here.

Chris Norton: 17:01

You're Leeds Building Society today and they're a great brand. So you've worked for the two best Leeds brands other than Prohibition PR. Well, yes.

Nikki Dixon: 17:16

Working for Leeds Brands. I feel really proud. I'll always feel proud about working for Asda. I think what's really hard is, how you know, there's been so much press recently, but I think, if you go back to the fact that they are a really strong Leeds brand, they've lost their way a bit but they're going to get it back.

Nikki Dixon: 17:38

And I think, you know, for me it's all about focus, it's all about the team, it's about working together, it's about identifying and when I talk about focus, you know what place? What can they do? Where can they be within the market? Because with everything it's so competitive. And I think that's the problem when you look at retail, particularly Because with everything it's so competitive, and I think that's the problem when you look at retail, particularly that kind of retail with the likes of the discounters, it is a really hard place to be because they are so strong on quality but so strong on price. So it's where can Asda find that position? But ultimately it goes back to what do people want. We always used to talk about it in terms to what do people want. We always used to talk about it in terms of what do people want, need and desire, because there's the basic needs of people. But then, over and above that, what can you offer to people?

Chris Norton: 18:33

I'll tell you what I do. I'm sick of the automated checkouts you piss me off. You want any, any shop, now you can't even buy a book without doing automated checkout, why? And then right, the weird thing is they've got like three of them and then this dumb, someone who's been paid, who'd normally have been on the checkout just stood around, yeah I mean it's one in three, I suppose.

Chris Norton: 18:58

But I just think, I think, I think the personal touch, you know, like and I get that we've got to save money, there's AI, there's all these things that he's moving into retail. But I think retail, there's also the personal touch, there's also, you know, places like.

Chris Norton: 19:10

Asda and um your local deli or your local co-op or whatever yeah, like you see the older people, which I'm one now, but talking to the staff because, yeah, that's the probably the only people they see, yeah, just doing the automated thing and coming out you're doing their job, you know, I mean yeah and I think that's um, that's something we leave.

Nikki Dixon: 19:28

Building society. You know the branches yeah yeah, because that could be. You know the members that we've got, the older members, like you say, in terms of going into an asda store. You know they go into a branch.

Nikki Dixon: 19:41

That might be the only interaction that they have yeah and I think this is where in the, in a world that is moving so quick, I think some people are too quick to go down that ai route. You know, thinking about everybody, the younger generation is coming up. There's so many people who still absolutely value that interaction. You know, the personal touch, yeah, all of that kind of stuff. I think that's what, from a marketing point of view, we can't lose sight of no, but that's what.

Chris Norton: 20:13

That's what the supermarkets do do well data usually. They know they know their customer. They know what the. They know what the average basket size is. They know why they're coming in. They know their customer. They know what the average basket size is. They know why they're coming in. They know the key products that they buy. They know that if they don't stock bananas, that people aren't going to come into the local convenience store.

Nikki Dixon: 20:29

Stuff like that fascinates me.

Chris Norton: 20:31

That's what retail is brilliant at.

Sinead Morrissey : 20:33

It is. Yeah but, you're right, it's really competitive. Some of the supermarkets they identify the person in their area that's bought the most of one item over over a period of time. I love that they do that. They did it. So one of my friend's mums was like imagine something embarrassing it was it was so it was like prosciutto ham or something. She'd bought the most of it in a certain region, so they sent her loads of free ham. Oh, that's amazing.

Sinead Morrissey : 21:00

Yeah, yeah it's such a personal touch and it's that, like data. Yeah, it comes on to the community element. I guess you've always sort of worked for brands where community has been at the heart of them, yeah, which is, I guess, a really nice thing to have in your career yeah, it is, and it's really important.

Nikki Dixon: 21:21

And I think it's interesting how people think about community um. I mean, at Asda they had the community champions and they were people in stores who literally worked with their local community and it was, um, yeah, anything from raffle prizes so people would come in and want a raffle prize to raise money through to going out and and helping. Or, you know, supporting home shopping, where amazing stories where people couldn't get out but they really needed their medicine from the pharmacy and you know, the the um community champion would go out and do that. And I think that's where, going back to that whole thing around, you know the human side is so important and it's great to work for businesses where community does play a big part in that.

Nikki Dixon: 22:11

So, charity, and you know we do a lot at Leeds Building Society, so I am the forum sponsor for LGBTQ+ and it's amazing, through just that forum, what we do in the local community. You know, whether it be with Leeds Pride or we do things like we help condom packing, which actually is loads of fun because we're literally, you know, packing bags, but it's a great one because you're together with the team. Yeah, and it's things like that that I think sometimes you can underestimate the difference that it can make, whereas we, when we do things like that and volunteer so recently my team went out to help in the yorkshire dales and we were propagating and getting seedlings ready to plant trees and you know stuff like that where you wouldn't necessarily think of it as part of a day job, but it's so important that we can go out and do that volunteering so leeds building society is there?

Chris Norton: 23:11

is there something else called the leeds and holbeck?

Nikki Dixon: 23:14

so we used to be. Is that? Am I right, or am I going crazy? So that is well. It's really interesting because we're talking about that only this morning, because leeds building society is 150 years old this year, hence the campaign recently yes, the campaign and, uh, this year we're very much thinking about 150, so, um, all things with that kind of a theme, um, but it used to be leeds and holbeck and it changed, it evolved into leeds building society it was the same.

Chris Norton: 23:44

It was the blue branding and it was same yes, when I was a child. Yes, yeah, okay, yeah, I wasn't sure if it was two different building societies, but I thought I'd never heard of that.

Nikki Dixon: 23:54

Yeah, yeah, it's um. Yes, I think you're a bit younger than us.

Sinead Morrissey : 23:59

Yeah, you're a bit younger than us We'll edit that one out.

Nikki Dixon: 24:05

I was going to say me. I was going to say me, but then I was like us Makes me feel old.

Chris Norton: 24:11

So how many branches have you got? Because if you look at, my sister worked for HSBC. She was a branch bank manager in one of the HSBC's and obviously the branches you know, you look at in any town, the um, whether it's a bank or a building society, they were the. They were the um cornerstone of, like, the. You're talking of community, yeah, and now, like I'm from, I'm from a little town, pretty town called nairsborough, in uh, and we had probably eight banks in the town. I think there's one left, yeah, and they're all just self-service. Again, back to the automation. No personal touch. I'm not saying there is there probably is a couple still open. My point is that the retail banks have seen, you know, profits, they want to get it, they've got to save money and stuff like that, and 90% of people, or a high level of people, do things on mobile banking now, don't they?

Nikki Dixon: 25:03

Yeah.

Chris Norton: 25:05

So how are we getting around, how are you guys getting around that issue that people are moving on to mobile? But then, yeah, the personal touch is actually one of the things that takes you away from the big corporate banks, right?

Nikki Dixon: 25:16

Yes, yeah, so we have. We've just opened a new branch in Solihull, which opened just before Christmas, and we are investing in our branches because it's just it's so important. I mean, obviously we've got it's about understanding the channels. So you know, using the channels in the right way, but the right way for our member. So we're Leeds Building Society because we're a mutual, so we're owned by members Does that mean if you put one pound in, you are a member.

Chris Norton: 25:51

Now, yes, just so I understand that. Is that right.

Nikki Dixon: 25:53

Yes.

Chris Norton: 25:54

Is that what mutual is yes, because we used to work for Skepton Building Society and that's how, yeah, it was found in your number right, yeah, okay so it's all about mutuality.

Nikki Dixon: 26:04

So we we don't have shareholders. Um, if you are a member of our society, you have a say basically in how we run our business. Um. So we still have our annual agm and we invite all members to come to that. We we hold that in Leeds, but it's about so yeah, going back to the channel piece, we wanted we've got to operate the business in the right way for our members and that is obviously utilizing the channels that we've got. So online is, you know, it's massive, massive. It's where people are heading. You know, the digital world. People want everything now. People want to be able to do stuff on their phones, you know when they choose to do it. But for us, the branches are a hugely important part of how we run our business and that is where you know, and that's why we are investing in our branches and hence why we've just opened another one um. So we have over 50 now and they're nationwide. So whilst we're leads, we've got branches all over the country you're going in manchester, then yes do people not go?

Chris Norton: 27:13

what am I going in there?

Nikki Dixon: 27:13

it's from leeds well, no, and it's really interesting because people and this is where I think marketing comes in, and this is what I find fascinating really learning and understanding about our members.

Nikki Dixon: 27:27

And when I talk about members, so we've also got customers because we work with brokers, because leads is a really simple model, so we, we do, we have savings accounts and we do mortgages accounts, so we work with brokers from a mortgage point of view as well as direct members, and then our members are very much, you know, the heartland from when it comes to, from to a savings point of view, the value that we can add in terms of members coming into the branches is huge and it's not and I'm not talking about value in terms of people coming in and depositing their savings with us.

Nikki Dixon: 28:01

I'm talking broadly, more broad than that, because actually it's the value that the member gets, because, going back too early, when we're talking about, you know, people going into retail and it might be the only attraction they have. We've got such strong relationships between our members and our branches and we have people who will come in, you know, week in, week out, and they've built that relationship. And also, going back to when we were talking about, you know the fact that things have gone digitally and you know you can't go and there's no banks really where you live now. People still rely really heavily on cash and that's the thing that when branches are closing, people can't go in Really.

Chris Norton: 28:43

Yeah, in 2025?.

Nikki Dixon: 28:45

Yeah, it's still so. There's this whole thing around. Actually, everybody just, you know, transacts on their phone? Yeah, they don't. And this is where I think, because we are an ageing population, there is such a large amount of the population that still will use cash. So, during going through covid a really difficult time for people who still rely on cash people have obviously had to adapt because there's so many places now that don't deal with cash. But this is where it's so important that we are there and we show up where our members need us and that is really important, and whether that's a conversation, you know, for them going in and having a conversation face-to-face in branch, or whether that's because actually they're taking out the cash that they need, uh, weekly, that's where you know the branches are so important for us that must be.

Sinead Morrissey : 29:39

They're like now when you say there must be a huge part of the population that still don't still do rely on cash and it must be so difficult for them when they go to places and there isn't the option because so many places now say like yeah, car don't yeah yeah, yeah, that means that they then have to go to the building societies to take the cash out. Yes, well, to, I guess. What would you do some of?

Chris Norton: 30:03

them must. Just, I don't I don't know what they do because I don't actually carry cash anymore. No, ever I don't. I'm lost when I go somewhere and it's they need cash. I'm like we went we've just been on holiday to cape verde over christmas, christmas and we got on this trip and the the the guy and my wife was saw this little stall and she bought this trip. And the guy my wife saw this little stall and she bought this thing and she obviously paid that much in euros for whatever it was that she didn't have all the money on him. And the guy said, oh, don't worry, I'll follow you, and followed her all around this. We're on a tour, by the way, all the way on this tour, and then we pulled up in the city and Lisa, she said, and Lisa said, oh, and you can go to the cash machine and I'll get the money off you, okay. So she thought that'd be quite straight, relatively straightforward.

Chris Norton: 30:43

She got there and it was obviously bank holiday because it's Christmas, the Christmas break. There was a massive queue, so she was stood in this queue with all these locals, right, and they were all really stressed out because apparently the cash machines had run out of money.

Sinead Morrissey : 30:56

What was she buying? She said what the hell are they doing in the middle of a foreign country? I hope it was worth it.

Chris Norton: 31:01

In a queue Because she never uses cash. No, because most people. I always think that with them, you know like, because in Leeds, you'll know this, there's quite a lot of homelessness.

Sinead Morrissey : 31:11

I see, yeah, I've seen that it's really sad, isn't it? It is. I never have any change on me, no, any high dough and like change for them and change for buskers and you know, like I just don't carry money anymore.

Chris Norton: 31:23

No, yeah, they're going to have to run their own little card machines, which just seems sort of counterproductive, doesn't it? Yeah?

Sinead Morrissey : 31:31

well, hopefully people would buy them sandwiches or hot drinks and stuff like that but then that's more time out of people's day, isn't it? Yeah, so it's probably they're actually getting much less.

Chris Norton: 31:41

So what sort of percentage is cash and card then for you guys? Do you know roughly? You don't have to know exact numbers, we're not going to Google it.

Nikki Dixon: 31:50

I don't know. That's a very good question. I'm going to go and find out.

Chris Norton: 31:53

You're going to find out for us.

Sinead Morrissey : 31:54

We'll put it in the show notes yeah, for me, like I was saying beforehand, that sorry to bring up being younger again actually do um, I think for me, I didn't really ever fully understand the difference between, like, a building society and a bank, until it came to buying a house. I think that was the first time I'd ever actually gone into a branch and was like, oh, this is a different. It's a different experience. When you go in, I think, and the people that you meet in branch and, yeah, the attention that you get from them was so much more. They were much more friendly, much more attentive, whereas you can go into a bank now and you're just expected to go over to the machine and do it all for yourself. It's quite. There might be maybe one person, but if it's busy bank, you're not going to get any attention. No, in a building society, it was like you were greeted straight away by someone and they actually helped you. Yes, which was like a weird experience for me because I hadn't really done that before.

Nikki Dixon: 32:51

No, it is. Yeah, it is really different. I used to save Ridley's Building Society as a child and I've got really happy memories of going to Weatherby near to Lairsborough with my mum with my deposit book and we still have the books. It's the past book and people really love those past books when they get like the computer.

Chris Norton: 33:17

Yes, you can see how much you've taken these guys will have no, millennial and Gen Z they're not going to have the computer.

Sinead Morrissey : 33:21

Yes, yeah, you can see how much you've taken. Yeah, these guys will have no millennial and gen z.

Chris Norton: 33:22

They're not gonna have a clue what we're talking about so you actually get.

Nikki Dixon: 33:26

I mean, it's so sweet, it's a little book and that is your passbook. And when you go into a branch so you could go in with cash, I mean the cash is even like talking about it now. It sounds really weird. So you go in, yeah, so you go in and say you've got 100 pounds, you hand your passbook over and they deposit it and, yeah, it gets stamped in your book yeah and so each time you go in or if you take money out, it will go as a minus and then you've got your balance.

Nikki Dixon: 33:58

But it's a physical book and it's amazing because that sounds really alien in these days people absolutely love the fast book and I remember going in as a child and loving it because I mean I'd take a pound in, but it was still a pound, yeah, and you can go and deposit it and it's like it's all stuff like that. That again, I think you know, obviously we've got to move with the times and we are moving with the times and digital is really important for us and with all marketing, as I said before, it's about understanding. You know what that customer needs. How do we do things that really help the customer, the member? But I think it's not forgetting some of the things that you know actually do still make a difference to people. And it doesn't all have to be about this digital world. It doesn't have to be one or the other, no, it's about that blend.

Chris Norton: 34:51

It's very analog. That little book, isn't it? Yeah, you print out with your number on it and then you can see your money going up. I have thought about this right Because your money going up? I've thought about this right because when I was a kid, I used to go in and you'd put your savings, you'd take your cash in, you'd put your savings in your building society. I can't remember I was with Halifax before that was a bank and a couple of others I think Nat West. I had savings used to save the money and then you'd get the different pigs when, oh yeah, if you put £50 in, you had a little pig, they gave you a pig.

Sinead Morrissey : 35:22

Yeah, a pig, an actual piggy bank.

Chris Norton: 35:24

But they were different pigs in a family and you had to collect the set.

Nikki Dixon: 35:27

And so if you had, more savings, that's fun.

Sinead Morrissey : 35:29

Yeah, it was quite fun.

Chris Norton: 35:30

I can't remember what the hell I'm talking about. I just remember that was quite interesting when I was a child. Oh, I know what point I was going to make. I was going to make is I was thinking that when you're a kid you put like little savings in these accounts and then I swear down, those books get lost. And there must be. I hate to think how many billions are in the banks and the building societies of people that have got like £3.97 still in an account somewhere.

Sinead Morrissey : 35:53

When you add this up, what's sat in an?

Chris Norton: 35:54

account, because they've totally forgotten where the book, the number is and what it is.

Sinead Morrissey : 35:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'd actually be interesting to find out, a bit like in throughout the nation, how much money yeah, that's a great PR campaign.

Nikki Dixon: 36:09

Yeah, you should do that find out all that take it out, you'll be gutted yeah, all the lost savings, yeah, okay.

Chris Norton: 36:16

I want to talk about your um, your campaign, then. So, because it was your biggest. I mean, prolific North have dubbed it the biggest campaign that you've done in 150 years and it was called it's Better to Belong right? Yeah, correct, sinead, and I watched a YouTube video earlier about it and I think I remember seeing it as well.

Nikki Dixon: 36:34

Do you just want to explain what was the thinking behind the campaign and what it's done and what you've seen from it, because it was your biggest campaign yeah, I mean it's still early days, um, but it's been fantastic to work on, I think, because leads have never had we've never had a brand platform before um, so it was a really good one to work through um. But obviously with any brand, it's really important that you understand who you are and I think that's the thing that that leads. And when I say leads, I'm talking about leads building society. Um, leads building society hadn't quite got to that place of really understanding you know who they are, what do we stand for, what's our brand about?

Nikki Dixon: 37:26

So we started on this journey and what's been great throughout all of this is really that learning and understanding really getting to the heart of what is Leeds Building Society all about. What's our place in the market? Because there's so many building societies, there's so many banks. You know the financial sector is huge. It's also really important and I think that's the bit that I hadn't really thought through. So moving from um retail to hospitality, I have to say, when I was first, when I first heard about the job at Leeds Building Society, I actually thought, oh, finance.

Chris Norton: 38:04

Yeah, yeah, you thought, oh, finance, I've worked in. I've worked in retail hospitality. That sounds a bit dry.

Nikki Dixon: 38:11

I did because I thought do you know what? Right now I'm working for a hospitality business. I've got a great team, horses, my team. I get to stay at beautiful places. How do you beat that? Yeah, and I really thought, and then going to finance because all I thought about was dinosaurs. You know it's grey when people talk about building societies, and particularly for the younger audience in the room. You know you said your perception and you.

Chris Norton: 38:40

All I can think of is I'm looking for a guy in finance.

Sinead Morrissey : 38:44

Yeah, well, it's just it is.

Chris Norton: 38:46

It's a bit boring, I know you mean yeah, and so I think it isn't actually that boring, though is it when you know the sector no, and that's the bit that really got me.

Nikki Dixon: 39:01

So as soon as I and it's very much like when I was talking about going to Thwaites, the whole, you know I felt it as soon as I've got there I thought you know what? This is a great place. I really want to work here. When I had the conversations about the role at Leeds, it was the same thing. As soon as I was talking to them, I was thinking, yeah, yes, it's a different industry, but actually this is really exciting. There's so much stuff that can be done and I think that's what's been really interesting working on the whole brand piece and getting us to a place of understanding what Leeds Building Society is all about, because it's not about the boring side.

Nikki Dixon: 39:37

Finance affects every single person. Yeah, you can't get away from it. So hospitality you can choose whether you go on a really nice spa weekend away. You can't choose in life whether you need money or not, and you know going back to homeless people and stuff it's. It's so hard because finance has such an important part to play in everybody's life, right from you know, when you first start to learn about I mean, my kids are what seven and my girls are seven and ten and we're starting to really educate them on finance. You can't get away from it, but I think, working on the whole Leeds Building Society, it was trying to understand where can Leeds Building Society show up in the world of finance? What is it that we do? That's really, really good. What are the things that we need to learn more about? You know how do we interact with our members because, as I said, we are member owned. You know what really resonates with our members and we started on this journey of really learning and understanding that and I spent time um on calls. You know, absolutely getting to the heart of of. What is it that we do in our and and how do we have an effect on our members lives. And that sounds really, you know, profound. But actually, when you're talking to members who are, you know, facing financial difficulties, when you're talking to members who are, you know, facing financial difficulties, when you're talking to members who are really wanting to get on the housing ladder, it's major life events for them and we play quite a key part in that, because if somebody's been saving with us and then you know we're helping them to buy their first home, or you know somebody's facing financial difficulty and they're finding it hard to fund their mortgage.

Nikki Dixon: 41:34

What is it that we do? And that's where it really resonated with me and I just found it an amazing journey to be on in terms of understanding how we help our members and how we are part of that community, and that's very much we started thinking about. You know how do we we're talking about, like we're in their corner. You know what are the things that we do where other banks might turn around because this is their t's and c's and they can't help the member out in that situation. We do loads to to really help and to really face into. What is it? You know, members are not just they're not shareholders, they are people who actually own our business. So it's really important that we do the right thing for them, and that's where we came to the, to the whole thing of it's better to belong.

Nikki Dixon: 42:25

You know how we show up in their community, what we do. That goes above and beyond just the fact that they come in and you savings with us or have the mortgage, and that's where, when you get to that place, you know it's right because you can align it across the business. So it's not a case of then getting to a brand where you sort of think, how do we force fit? This it's about you've got, you've hit that right sweet spot. When things align in front of you and you go do you know what?

Nikki Dixon: 42:56

Yes, that really fits, because, as well as being able to see how we can bring it to life from a marketing campaign point of view, the brand is so much more than that. You know the brand is how is how we show up. Our brand is our business. So what we don't want to do is to get to a place of having a brand platform that you go. That doesn't fit. You know you want to be in a place where everything that you then work through and all the people that you work with across the business it feels right because it is right.

Nikki Dixon: 43:25

So even things like when we were then working with our people team on, you know what's the experience that people have when it comes to working at Leeds Building Society. You know our colleague value proposition that, again, is all about aligning to the brand and it's all about. You know it's better to belong at Leeds Building Society as a colleague point of view because of X, y, z. So it's been. Yeah, I'm really passionate about it, xyz. So it's been yeah, I'm really passionate about it. I'm passionate with all brands that they absolutely are true to the business, that you are authentic. Yes, authenticity is so important and I think that, from a personal point of view as well, I spent too long at asda not being authentic. I spent too long trying to be the person that I thought I needed to be, because all I was focused on was you know how do you progress in your career? And I think my big learning coming out of ASDA was do you know what? Just be me, be authentic.

Chris Norton: 44:23

I got quite brutal ASDA something to progress. Yeah, was it corporate, big corporate, quite challenging, big corporate interesting programs, things called stepping stones. I had an interview at head office once and it was pretty brutal, to be fair yeah, I learned quite a lot in it, though, from the interview is one of the most brutal interviews I've ever done, and afterwards I made sure I was always as prepared as I could be.

Nikki Dixon: 44:44

Yeah, it's, um, it was always grades, and how do you prove yourself to get to the next grade, and it was that kind of yeah, I was always like thinking right, okay, so I want to get from a C8 to a C10. I want to get from a C10 to a B, and so it was always that and I think I was yeah and levels.

Nikki Dixon: 45:09

So you'd go from like being, um, a team leader to a manager, to a senior manager yeah, it's all that. Yeah, and I think, yeah, my big learning was and it goes back to authenticity I wasn't, I wasn't being true to myself. I was always trying to think, right, what would be the expectations of me as a bee? And trying to be that bee, yeah, whereas you know, the big thing now with my team is do you just be who you are, be the best that you can be, but be you, you know, be authentic. I think people who try too hard to prove themselves can spend too long focusing on that bit and not focusing on just doing a great job. And if you do a great job, you really shine through. How many people you got on your team then?

Chris Norton: 45:57

um, so I have 58 wow, okay, that's a lot of responsibility, right there.

Nikki Dixon: 46:03

Yeah, I love the team side. I think the team side yeah, I mean, we were talking earlier, I think before we started this about um offices and sitting with the team and yeah, I want to be with the team. There's so much value. You're the boss, people, but you know what, it doesn't matter, because I just think if you're not accessible, yeah, if you're not authentic, you know, gone are the days, I think, where it's like that whole. I am the boss. Yeah, you know, I tell you what to do you're wrong.

Chris Norton: 46:39

Nobody tells. I don't tell anyone what to do. No me what to do half the time no, and I think that's what's really important.

Nikki Dixon: 46:45

Even my kids do like yeah, yeah, talk about kids all day. I think, um, yeah, it's, do you share?

Chris Norton: 46:54

your office, then the office. That because the reference from before we started speaking. That because we said you had your own office and I said do you have your name on the door? Because I thought the big corporate building that'd be quite. Do you share your office or is it just your own office and do you have a leather sofa?

Nikki Dixon: 47:11

So I don't have my name on the door. People know it's my office because I'm so proud of the work that we do and the team have done that. I have got all over my walls visuals of the marketing stuff. I don't want a white box. I don't have a leather sofa stuff. I don't want a white box. Um, I don't have a leather sofa. Um, I, I share my office. I only use my office if I need quiet time, but I am the one that will distract the team. It's not the team that will distract me. Sounds familiar.

Nikki Dixon: 47:47

I was gonna say see what I mean yeah, no comment well when, uh, when I first got there, uh, because we all just hot desk, yeah, so people just sit wherever. That's good, um, and I love that. But I did say to the team what would be really helpful is because I don't have a locker, so I have a? Uh, drawers, okay, and my drawers are in my office. So I said what would be really helpful is if there is a desk that I can sit at when I when I'm, because I want to sit with the team, um, and they said to me um, oh, but we're a bit worried that we'll. You know, we might be a bit noisy, we might distract you. And that's when I said to them do you know what it's going to be?

Nikki Dixon: 48:28

The other way around, because I just see, the value in being in the office is not about sitting in me, sitting in an office away from the team, it's about the conversation. Yeah, you know, it's about hearing what's going on. Yeah, I would hope that my team know that. Actually, don't stop having the conversations when I'm around. You know, even if you're talking about Emmerdale, keep talking about it.

Nikki Dixon: 48:54

Yeah, because the whole thing podcast but it's like and it goes back to when I was at Asda um, one of the best bosses I've ever had, a guy called Simon Iles who is now he's at Betty's, he's the MD of Betty's. We used to go in in the morning because at Asda if you didn't park by quarter to seven, no chance of getting a parking space. So we were in really early and there'd often just be me and him. We'd be working away and he'd say, did you watch Emmerdale last night? And I'd say, oh my god, eminem, last night. And I say, oh my god, yeah, it was really good. I don't watch it as much now because I just haven't got the time, but it's stuff like that that I think is really important. You're at work too long to not enjoy what you do. So, yeah, obviously you know we work really really hard, but you've got to have fun.

Nikki Dixon: 49:49

Yeah, you've got to have fun, you've got to have banter. So absolutely I don't want to be sat in an office. I want to be sat with the team and hearing about what's going on. You know marketing is all about. You know what? Have you seen? What's going on out there? So stuff like that. And the team you know it's so important and and just getting to know the team, yeah, they do a phenomenal job. I'm really lucky. The team you know it's so important and and just getting to know the team, yeah, they do a phenomenal job. I'm really lucky. The team at Leeds are fantastic.

Sinead Morrissey : 50:14

Across the three sort of big career moments that you've had at those companies. There's a lot of similarities in terms of community and how you've worked, but what would you say were the biggest differences between the industries and the biggest challenges as you've moved across?

Nikki Dixon: 50:33

I think the biggest difference has been moving into financial services because it's regulated, and that is that's why I can't get my bloody emails to you.

Chris Norton: 50:42

Yeah, I have to reply to an email that you've replied, so that they know that you've replied for some reason. It's really weird. I think it's because financial services is a lot more secure on email. Yes, or maybe you've just blocked me, I don't know.

Nikki Dixon: 50:57

No came through this morning. It's random though, isn't it? It's like one comes and then not another, um, so I think moving from retail to hospitality wasn't such a change, if anything. Hospitality is the other way, so you sort of go, and because it was corporate to family owned, there were things that I'd go and go oh, you know what, we don't do this. So things that then I mean during Covid and hospitality was so interesting and such a learning, because I unfortunately had to furlough my whole team because we had to close down and a family-owned business. You know it was about how do we absolutely protect a business that's been going since 1807, through the worst moment in their history? So I furloughed my whole team, so that was really interesting.

Chris Norton: 51:44

You furloughed them because it was a problem, that wasn't it.

Nikki Dixon: 51:47

Furloughing was horrible well, I didn't even know what furlough meant. No, no, nobody was scary, wasn't it?

Chris Norton: 51:52

because no, yeah, no, it was like I got people my job about, not, we got people I got people being mad with me for being furloughed and I got people being mad with me for keeping them working.

Nikki Dixon: 52:00

Yeah, yeah because the weather was so nice.

Nikki Dixon: 52:03

People on furlough were like this is brilliant yeah, I loved it, but it was um yeah, it was so strange but I ended up going from, you know, leading a team to it was me and I was editing website. I mean I had a great time. I was editing websites, I was doing CRM. You know, I learned so much and that was so interesting. But I think, going back to your question, there wasn't too much change going from retail to hospitality, because at the end of the day, we were selling a product, and nice products, um, whereas going from hospitality to finance, whoa I mean, and and trying to understand the regulatory side, was probably one of the biggest changes for me and there's so much that I've still got to learn. But I think that because we can't just go out there, so in hospitality we could say, right, I mean I did.

Nikki Dixon: 53:04

One of my career highlights was creating a pop-up pub at the Great Yorkshire Show. So we, we built the Lister Arms at the Great Yorkshire Show and that was amazing and it's like we just I sort of scared the team because woke up with this idea one morning and that idea came to fruition and it was just unbelievable when we did it. Going to Spanish services, I can't wake up with an idea and go let's do this, because we can't because we're regulated. So that's the biggest thing in terms of how do you make sure that what you're doing is relevant to your member and your customer, how do you do it in a way that's really engaging? But you've got to be really mindful that we've got to make sure that we are in line with our regulators at all times. So I think that was the thing. That was the biggest thing. That I found is quite a change and a challenge, I suppose, because, being in marketing, you want to. You know, I want to go and do all sorts of things, but I also want to stay out of prison.

Sinead Morrissey : 54:11

So is it, I guess, in your role now is it a lot more challenging to kind of. I suppose trust is such a big like trust from your customer base is such a big part of what you do, is it difficult to measure that, compared to how you could kind of measure success previously? I?

Nikki Dixon: 54:31

think, do you know what it sounds like it should be? But it's probably easier because of the regulated side right. So because we have to do things in line with the guidelines, then we know that the things that we put out there are absolutely trustworthy. So it's probably easier in financial services because we have to think in that way, whereas in other industries, you know, you could I mean hospitality could just do anything and that could really erode trust because actually if it's not being thought through in the right way and you put something out there that actually then you't necessarily land right, then that could ultimately erode trust.

Nikki Dixon: 55:16

Whereas with financial services, you know the thing, how we communicate to our members, we've got to do it in a certain way and we've got to do it in a way, and particularly recently. So this consumer duty that's come in, that is absolutely all about protecting, um, the public. So it makes it even more important and because of the topics that we're talking about, you know, we've always got to be so mindful of how we talk about that with our members, because trust can be so easily eroded, because it is so sensitive, because you're talking about their finances. So if we were to do something wrong, you know, they'd feel it a lot more than they would. So if you were to buy something that's gone out of date, yeah it's really annoying, but actually it's not such a big thing. So it's really important, but I think, because we've got that regulatory side, but also integrity, we've got to do the right thing because, at the end of the day, our members, they own our business.

Chris Norton: 56:12

Yeah, because it's a mutual, it's quite, it's quite nice to have your members. Only, though, yeah, um, I'm aware that we've got. We've taken up your time. Thanks for coming on the show. Um, if, if people want to listen to this, want to get a hold of you in any way shape of, don't try email, uh how can they get hold of you.

Nikki Dixon: 56:31

So I have to say I'm not great on linkedin, are you not?

Nikki Dixon: 56:34

no, I've been all right with you chatting away to you I know, but I'm not so, even though I work in marketing. I'm not brilliant myself on social, I know, but I always feel really conscious of that. But linkedin so when I say I'm not great, I'm not one who's out there posting, yeah and all of that, yeah, but actually from a message point of view it might take me a little while, but I will always come back to people. So, yeah, linkedin email isn't great because obviously, you've seen, emails don't tend to get through. But yeah, linkedin can't tell you on linkedin.

Chris Norton: 57:08

Well, thanks so much for your time. Thanks for coming in and telling us all about, because you're literally the building next door.

Sinead Morrissey : 57:14

We can see it, I can speak to you.

Chris Norton: 57:17

Thanks for coming in. Really interesting. Thanks a lot, nikki. You've been on the show now. Yes, if you were us, who would you get on this show for marketing people? Who would you invite on the show if you were me? Basically, simon isles. Simon isles from betty's.

Nikki Dixon: 57:34

Yes, oh, that's not far from me. Yeah, so, simon, because he used to be so. When I, when I worked for him at asda, he was looking after all the own brand. Then he moved to taylors of harrogate, uh, to be marketing director. So his background is marketing.

Chris Norton: 57:52

He's now md of betty's, but he's just, yeah, fantastic interesting the leeds themed podcast then yeah, I like it though, so you know local, isn't it?

Nikki Dixon: 58:03

yeah, and he was uh mccain before that scarborough based.

Chris Norton: 58:07

Oh yeah, chips the oven chip stadium, whatever it it's called. So it went from a football stadium, which is all sponsored by the McCain.

Nikki Dixon: 58:12

Yeah, it went from oven chips to Asda, to coffee, to cake. It's the king of cake, the king of cake.