Will Ockenden: 0:00

Welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast for marketers looking to learn from the mistakes of other global industry professionals to develop themselves, their strategies and their brands. I'm your host, will Ockenden, and today we have the fantastic Helen Nugent joining us. She's an award-winning journalist, editor, media trainer, pr consultant. To say just a few career paths and accomplishments, helen's experience is vast. With her 26 years in journalism, including print, broadcast and online, it's safe to say she knows a thing or two about the industry.

Will Ockenden: 0:31

We've also recently worked with Helen on some senior level media training, so in this episode we're going to be drawing on that a lot and exposing the tricks of the trade that she's shared with us, specifically, the tactics deployed by journalists to get the perfect soundbite or quote out of an interview. We'll discuss the importance of great media training for brands and spokespeople, the dirty tricks occasionally used by the press, as well as practical tips for spotting and navigating these tactics. Helen also shares some examples of when she's seen interviews get it wrong, and some made us laugh and some made us wince, as always. Sit back, relax and let's get some insider knowledge about those dirty tricks and learn how we can avoid falling victim to them.

Chris Norton: 1:14

Enjoy, helen Nugent. Welcome to the show for the third time.

Helen Nugent: 1:20

Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure to be here.

Chris Norton: 1:23

So the wind has got in the way of us being able to hear each other over this thing that they call the internet. Do you just want to walk us through how you got into media training and a little bit of a background around your experience in journalism, because you've had some cracking jobs, including a massive stint at the Times, which is very impressive.

Helen Nugent: 1:41

Thank you very much. Seems like a bit of a long time ago now. So I've been a journalist for gosh 27 years that's showing my age, isn't it? And I joined some trade mags back in 98 in London. I'm from the north originally, but I've moved down there to seek my fortune in journalism and quite quickly I moved on to the times I was a money and business reporter and then for the final six years of my tenure stint there, I was a home news reporter, editor, lobby correspondent, jack of all trades.

Helen Nugent: 2:13

And when I came back here to the north Manchester area in 2010, I'd already done a couple of years of my free time really running media training for Royal Mail and uh post office. And when I came back, I continued in my journalism. Excuse me, I was at the BBC for a bit presenting business news, producing local news, guardian mail, all those kind of things. But I was also running much more media training under what my then company was, which was Helen Nugent Consulting. Some of it involved like commuting to London for a day doing tech media training, pensions quite a lot of northern companies as well, going up to Pontefract, over to Merseyside, mostly in the financial arena. So that's what I've been building on. I've been back in the north for across 2025. Now aren't we 15 years, and a year ago, almost to the day, I set up a company called Gato Nero Media with a colleague of mine called James Richardson, and we run media training. We run, we build websites, we help companies with brand and PR.

Will Ockenden: 3:20

So you, you know, having such a long stint with some of the nationals you know, I know that you will have interviewed politicians, celebrities, chief executives. You must have seen the good, the bad and the ugly of media interviews. Is there any kind of like horror shows you can talk us through where the interview subject has just completely put it wrong?

Helen Nugent: 3:39

I'm going to have to protect the names to spare their blushes, I think. But I do remember one of my first really big interviews, possibly more than 20 years ago now, and I went to the minister's office at the treasury. It was one of my first big ones. It was, I'm pretty sure it was almost his first as a minister and I had my whole you know slew of questions ready and I just kept getting like one word answers and I don't know whether he was nervous or hadn't been properly prepared. But obviously I just ran out of things to say really quite quickly and I could sort of see the in-house guy, the PR guy, panicking slightly to my left and I didn't know what to do. Really I was a bit younger, I was a cub reporter, so I just had to go back to the office and make do with what I had.

Helen Nugent: 4:25

But then sometimes you do interviews with very important figures in really odd places.

Helen Nugent: 4:30

So I once interviewed Richard Branson at his seat on the plane over the Atlantic I was going on.

Helen Nugent: 4:37

I used to go on some of these virgin inaugural press trips and I actually really liked him, but you you wouldn't think it to see him because he's always such a big, you know, gregarious character, but if you look back at a lot of his media stuff you'll see he doesn't speak, it's all sort of pageantry and, as nice as he was, he was very, very nervous and he clearly found one-to-one interviews really tricky, even sitting on his own plane in his first class, and I really. Then then we get to the um country and you'd see him pictures, arms around people jumping up and down, and I thought this just bears no relationship to the man I just spoke to and I think you see how people they find their niche and they do what they're good at, and so that was a bit of an eye opener for me and I have. I have lots of other stories like that, but possibly um shouldn't disclose too many in public so Richard Branson was not.

Chris Norton: 5:32

You think he was nervous in the interview?

Helen Nugent: 5:34

oh yes, he was very nervous, yeah that's fascinating.

Will Ockenden: 5:38

So when yeah, that is fascinating. I mean you know as obviously as a, as a reporter, you know, approaching a big, high profile interview like that, do you ever suffer from nerves? Or you know, because obviously the power balance he probably felt the same and the fact that his nerve is speaking to you, how does that work, what you forget when you're a journalist and if you've still got your feet on the ground.

Helen Nugent: 6:01

Actually, the Times is quite an intimidating title, but I never felt intimidating as a person, so I think I'd forgotten that. But I'll give you excuse me. I mean I'm usually I don't really get nervous anymore, I get excited. But I did do an interview this week and it was the first time I'd been really nervous in ages. It was only because I absolutely loved this person. So I interviewed Adam Frost. He's one of the Gardeners World presenters, for I Run About the North Core of Northern Seoul and I just really wanted him to be nice because I watched him on telly and because I think he's absolutely brilliant. I was really nervous, but then I can interview. The day before I'd interviewed a very senior politician. I hadn't given it a second thought. So I think it's still good that you get excited by that.

Chris Norton: 6:50

I mean, I'm 27 years and I'm still, when it's people I really admire, getting nervous, and I think nerves can be a good thing when you're interviewing people yeah, but do you find, I would say, before you sit down with like celebrities or somebody that, um, do you find that they're different in an interview, that do you get their real personality beforehand? Have you seen that where they've, and they just turn it on as soon as they're in front of a camera I've seen politicians turn it on like a switch.

Helen Nugent: 7:17

Um, michael howard, god, it was just like a switch coming on. It was so odd. Um, that's going, that's gosh, that's back in the day, isn't it? Yeah I mean celebrities if they're good celebrities always going to hold something of themselves back. They don't want to show you, they don't know who you are and that's why I don't really like those big celebrity interviews where the journalist presents it as though they're their mate yeah I just think that is terrible journalism.

Helen Nugent: 7:42

But you see it all the time where the intro is. As I walked into the hotel room, tom Cruise gave me a big smile. He doesn't even know who you are, mate, and also no one's reading it to tweet about you. So I but. So sometimes they are. But Billy Bragg was very much as I expected him to be and I'm a big, big fan of his. His politicians, if they're good, are always yeah, they turn it on. It's one remove.

Will Ockenden: 8:08

But I much prefer people to interview people who are not famous, who are just doing something extraordinary in their own life so, um, I suppose, you know, since when you started in journalism, you know, fast forward to the media, landscape has changed so much hasn't it? And we're seeing, you know, the decline of print media. We're seeing the kind of the rise of sort of social media led media. I suppose, in as far as you know, we're kind of leaning into snackable soundbites. You know it's almost a dumbing down of media interviews. Is the media interview still an important skill to be able to master if you're a senior business figure?

Helen Nugent: 8:47

do you think, in your view, it's, it's more important than it ever was, because in the past you would just have one block interview, be on once, and that was it. Today, anything you say is there forever because of the internet and can go viral within seconds, and we've seen that with various things that's happened at Trump's first few days in office, things that you did not expect to go viral, being repeated again and again and again. So I would say that it's just, it's more important than it ever ever was, because of so many mediums it can be repeated on, you can become a meme. You things can be taken out of context and in the past you would do it beyond the headline news and no one would ever see it again.

Will Ockenden: 9:31

so, yeah, super, super important so, um, we've recently worked together, haven't we? And um, you know we, we worked together on some kind of quite senior level media training, which was absolutely fascinating and you really kind of put the individuals through their paces, which was which was a great exercise. But some of some of the content we covered, which I find absolutely fascinating, and I think our listeners will too, is around dirty tricks that journalists occasionally play. So we're going to dive into that in a second. But before we do that, one of the big areas I think people aren't ever clear on in a media interview is what's on the record and what's off the record and how to actually manage that in a live interview scenario. Do you want to kind of definitively tell us how that works and how people being interviewed should kind of manage that?

Helen Nugent: 10:17

OK. The bottom line is if you're talking to a journalist, assume everything you say is on the record, including the small chat, the thank yous at the end, the getting ready, putting your mic on. Assume it all is, unless you have had a conversation with that journalist or their producer, who says this is off the record and you've made that crystal clear. You will see that many very experienced interviewees have fallen victim to this and it never, ever stops being true that you have to be on your game, so assume it's all on the record. If you want it to be off the record, ask explicitly and get an uh, an affirmation that that. Yes, okay, we won't do this. But if you're being recorded and your mic is live, don't say anything that you don't want then other people to see and something off the record.

Will Ockenden: 11:12

It's still attributable to you. Sorry, it's still a tribute, it's still going to be mentioned in the article, but it's just not attributable to you. That's right, isn't it?

Helen Nugent: 11:20

that is mostly correct. I mean, often I would say to people when I'm speaking, when I'm interviewing, like a senior press officer, and I've maybe just chatted to someone who is one of their CEOs or something, and I will say, ok, can, just for guidance, can you tell me that means non-attributable off the record? Can you confirm? Or if I write this, will I be wrong? Or if I say this, will I be wrong? If I write this will I be wrong? Or if I say this will I be wrong? So yeah, there's, there's lots of, there's lots of ways to do it, but in a journalist, a good journalist, will be clear about their intentions. But you should be clear about your intentions too.

Chris Norton: 11:57

Many, many marketing professionals listening to this will fear being quote, misquoted or taken out of context. How often do you think it's intentional by the journalist, and what can brands do to protect themselves from being misquoted out of context based on what you just said as well?

Helen Nugent: 12:14

I think it's very rare. I mean, I genuinely do. I wouldn't include all the influencers and people who just happen to own a laptop in this, but then that's up to you about who you speak to and who you give your comments to. That's not something that I can control, but I would. I would say that a professional journalist and often that's mostly you're going to be dealing with if you're a big company, yeah, they're going to want to do a good job. They also want to keep you as a contact. They don't want to have a complaint to their editor. So I just say if you're speaking to a journalist, assume that they're going to say everything accurately and actually, in many ways, that's probably more likely these days because so many people record their interviews.

Helen Nugent: 12:59

When I was first doing journalism, it was all shorthand and it was a pencil in a notebook. I remember that and actually there were a number of court cases where people had recorded interviews and they weren't admissible because they were recordings. Although you know, a pencil shorthand would be admissible, which is always slightly Do you still learn shorthand at journal journalism?

Helen Nugent: 13:25

well, I've taught journalism at a couple of quite a number of universities, and the majority of them.

Chris Norton: 13:31

It's not compulsory and of course nobody's going to volunteer for sure it is boring, but my it's weird if you see someone doing shorthand and it's boring, but it's still super useful.

Helen Nugent: 13:43

I tell our journalists to do it. My shorthand's woeful now but as I was saying the yeah, because everything's recorded, there's no excuse now for a journalist to go. I can't quite read my shorthand back and sometimes I've actually had people say can we listen to that recording? Because we think that that we're not sure if the person said the right thing, etc. Etc. So I I just say you've got to have a leap of faith when you're talking to a professional journalist and if you're really worried, do your homework on that journalist, do your homework on that publication, before you say yes, we will grant you an interview.

Will Ockenden: 14:17

And actually we're not going to touch on that too much, but that's so important, isn't it? Interview preparation you need to understand who the journalist is. What so important, isn't it? Interview preparation you need to understand who the journalist is, um, what their agenda, if any, is what they've written in the past, and all of that needs to be briefed into your chief exec or whoever it is doing the interview. Otherwise you're just going in completely blind, aren't you, and you haven't got a clue what the?

Helen Nugent: 14:35

angle is likely to be and you know you can guarantee if it's a fairly decent journalist, they'll have done their prep. So you need to have done yours too, and don't assume just because you've been at a company for x number of years that you can just walk in and do it. I've seen people that I can do, I'm fine, I've been doing this for ages and they go in and there's a very good journalist and they go to pieces.

Will Ockenden: 15:25

So let's dive into some of these dirty tricks. I mean this is just absolutely fascinating to me and I mean these aren't not all of these are that common, are they, helen? I mean, you know these aren't going to happen to you in every single interview, but I think, probably at a high level, whether you're a chief exec or a politician, you know you are going to get a few of these, aren't you? So the first one and we've sort of developed these together over several conversations, um, we called it the rabbit punch, which is the kind of the destabilizing first question that that kind of comes in. It catches you unawares, it's unexpected or personal.

Will Ockenden: 15:58

I mean, I think probably jeremy paxman was the king of this, wasn't he? And he said to anwood, he's interviewing an widdicom, um, and I think his first question was were you a little in love with michael howard? And she's kind of stuttering and spluttering, not expecting it. So you know, talk us through the rabbit punch then. I suppose, how common is it? Why do people do it and how should we kind of ride it out?

Helen Nugent: 16:19

I have to say it's not really very common, but the instances of where it's been very successful as far as the journalist is concerned are well known and, as you say, gosh paxman, absolute master of this. But just going back to my experience with the bbc, doing five live, doing local radio unless you're on something like the today program and those politicians are expecting a combative interview, then actually a lot of prep goes in, not just with, uh, the team, yourselves at the broadcaster, but with the person you're interviewing, because essentially you don't. Most journalists do not want to make a fool of the person they're interviewing. They want to get the information, they often want to have them as a contact going forward and they want a good interview and they don't want things like dead air. So we often would talk to them before the interview about what they want to discuss, what might the questions be. There's a script then written. Everyone in bbc can see it because the way the centralized system works and it was always they pretty much knew what they were getting it.

Helen Nugent: 17:24

But then you know there's like question time. It tends to be political, to be honest, political journalism. They go on that and they expect that and they should, because they're public servants and they should be grilled and they should be held to account. But the vast majority of the time you're not going to open with a toughie. You're probably going to wait until you've got them relaxed and you've got to know them, and it's a bit like an undulating wave where you have dips of really easy stuff and the journalists will rise to a crescendo and ask something tricky and they'll dip again. Most interviews aren't done at high stress the entire interview, unless you are Jeremy Paxman or someone on, as I say, the Today programme is a prime example of that a prime example of that.

Chris Norton: 18:12

You mentioned something about um. When people um get tricked into or, you know, get sort of the, the trick of making someone say that they don't want to say how, how should a brand or somebody representing a brand handle a journalist who refuses to retract or correct a story, even when it's, like in, clearly inaccurate or damaging? Because we've had experiences where a journalist has got something inaccurate and we've requested amendments and, to be honest, they usually do make amendments but not everybody does do they, and they'll argue. And you, like you just said there, helen, like most, most interviews are recorded but some aren't. So how do you think that you can get a journalist to retract or amend the?

Helen Nugent: 18:46

story. I think there's probably there's probably two points there. I've not often that sounds terrible I've sometimes had, uh, the press person or the person themselves come back and say, oh look, could you just take that out? Like well, you said it, you knew we were on the record.

Helen Nugent: 19:01

You might not like what you said, but I'm afraid that's just tough luck yeah so that's one side of the coin where you are, and you get this much more in print journalism. So sometimes when I'm doing corporate writing and someone gets the ability to have a look at the probably you know the article before it goes out, they always want to correct their quotes to make themselves sound more erudite and all that ever does is make it sound like it's not real speech and it sounds like a press release quote. So you have to sort of try and row them back from that. But it happens every single time. It drives journalists like me up the wall. But when it comes to a genuine error and again 90% of those calls have always been that they just don't like what they've said or they don't like the way the journalist has interpreted it. Well, I'm sorry, but you're not the editorial director of my publication, so you don't get to make that call.

Chris Norton: 19:53

But in the 10 of cases where it is a genuine error, then I would always change it, always we had an instance where um, um, somebody that we'd we'd done media training with them, we'd gone through with the ceo, who shall remain nameless, and we tested various things out and um gone through various scenario training with the, with the, uh, the managing director, ceo and um. Then he did the interview and he was getting on really well with. It was a print journalist, by the way, and he was getting really on really well with her and he just started making jokes, like saying things like oh yeah, we have been, we have been accused of doing x, and it was like really shocking things as a joke and she wrote it down oh, it's awful, wasn't it verbatim? And we saw the interview afterwards. It were like and he admitted he actually said it all and it was just but he, because he was getting on with the journalist, he just kept like having little quips and the journalist just quoted him verbatim, which is awkward, especially after all the training he'd received that's.

Helen Nugent: 20:51

That's really tricky because, uh, a good journalist puts you at ease, unless it's like a competitive political interview or something yeah and and they can, and the journalist is within their rights to say well, you said it and I don't know.

Helen Nugent: 21:05

I didn't know you well enough to know. If you were joking now the journalist might suspected. But that is a perfectly legitimate defense and that's why the preparation and the media training comes in, where you say to them look, don't, don't be sucked in by a journalist that makes you feel comfortable, because that is their job and a good journalist will do that effortlessly. So if you don't know them, do not joke and assume that absolutely everything you say will be interpreted as serious, because then you haven't really got a leg to stand on when you go back to the journalist. But yeah, and the 10, is that the 10 of cases I come across. Where it is a genuine mistake, I'll always change it because I'm a professional, but you are.

Helen Nugent: 21:47

This is again going back to the media landscape. We are in a world where anyone with a computer and opposable thumbs can call themselves a journalist and there's often no oversight. Even at big publications, particularly regional papers, there are very few sub-editors now, there might not be a lawyer, there might not be a legal team, so your recourse is very difficult because there isn't a chain of command and to whom you can complain. So again it all goes back to don't say anything to a journalist you don't really know that you're not comfortable seeing out there in the world well.

Will Ockenden: 22:22

That kind of leads us on to the next one, which um is um small talk before the interview is actually started. And there's a good example being. I've heard this let's say, a big company is making lots of redundancies. The journalist might say oh, you're looking well, have you been on holiday? And the chief exec says, oh yeah, I've had two weeks in Barbados. And then the headline is chief exec sums himself in Barbados, while company makes 200 redundancies. So is that a risk? Do you need to be on your a-game the moment you walk into that room? Yeah, you know, and and I mean it's not about being defensive, is it, but it's you need to be aware, don't you?

Helen Nugent: 22:58

yeah, and also the small talk is is another, is another tool the journalist uses to put someone at ease. And I I say when I, when I teach journalism and I'm teaching someone how to do an interview, I say, look, even if you've only got five minutes, don't just rush into the interview, say how are you, how's your day been, or something like that. I know it's eating up precious time, but an interview is a conversation and a conversation, particularly in Britain, will always start with how are you and they go I'm fine. The answer, particularly in Britain, will always start with how are you and they go, I'm fine. The answer.

Helen Nugent: 23:31

So it's, it's all well and good. It puts you, it makes you feel a bit better as well as the interviewee. But don't then feel that, don't get drawn into. Yeah, I've been stunning myself on a beach and, well, my CFO's been doing this. So, yeah, expect small talk, expect that to be on the record, but also perhaps have some few stock phrases that you can say, which is about the weather? I mean, it doesn't really matter what you say, so long as it's not anything contentious.

Will Ockenden: 23:59

Yeah, the safest possible. You know, when you look at kind of guides for Europeans or Americans about how to discuss, you know how to have conversation in polite society, it's always the weather, it's the safest possible conversation point, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely, when we spoke before, you've called this one the Columbo question, haven't you? Which is the kind of you know, and for anyone that doesn't know, columbo the TV detective, he'd always sort of he'd always have a final question, wouldn't he? That would kind of frame the individual. He'd go oh, one more thing that I'm curious about. So journalists often do that, don't they? Um, you know they'll do the interview, but then they'll ask about and and it happens, um, to politicians a lot, doesn't it? You know, oh well, I've got you, and then they'll ask a completely off-topic question that throws people. Is that something?

Helen Nugent: 24:46

um, that happens a lot yes, it is something that happens a lot and I do call it the colombo question, although I have had to update it slightly, and I'll call it the vera question, but vera is now finished, I'm gonna have to find another detective to say that about. And actually, once you know it happens particularly in detective dramas, you see it all the time you can't stop seeing it. Now that you know and it is, it's that walking away and then turning back with a smile, or or um, oh, can I just? Yeah, well, I've got you. Or oh, just, oh, I just forgot to say this. Or just as, just as we finish, I just wanted to.

Helen Nugent: 25:17

And that is often. It's not something the journalist is prepared in advance. It can often be something that's come up as you're talking. You think, oh, that would be a good question, but I'll just leave it to the end because they'll either get really annoyed or they'll start to relax. It's not? I mean, although I do, maybe. I feel I'm doing journalists a bit of a disservice here. We're not all out to trick people, we're just trying to do our jobs well. And we're trying and particularly when it's something where it is a public servant or a company has done something terribly wrong. It's our job to hold up the truth and to tell people this is happening. So dirty tricks is a fun way of describing it, but it's probably a little bit mean yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say that we're sensationalizing.

Will Ockenden: 26:04

You know, these aren't dirty tricks, these are legitimate techniques in a lot of cases and journalists aren't. Journalists aren't out to catch people out in 99 of cases, are they?

Chris Norton: 26:13

I've got an example of this though. So I'm, one of my jobs years and years and years ago was I was running a press conference. I used to do the pr for the lottery camelot and, um, our job was to announce the winners and we had an, a family of winners. They'd won I think I can't remember how many millions they'd won and we did a big press shoot, um, in yorkshire. Um, I covered all yorkshire in the northeast and a part of our remit was to interview the winners, find out about them, find out if there's any skeletons in the closet as well, when the winners because obviously journalists will jump on that. It was a lot of money anyway and we had the big shoot. It was at a five-star hotel and we did the big check and the champagne and everything and we'd found out that I believe I can't quite remember, so I think the, the, the guy that had won it, his brother, had been in prison or something, or his brother or sister had been in prison, and we were like, okay, is that? And they don't really speak anymore. Anyway, we did the big press conference with the mics, all they're all laid out. The journalist is like 30 journalists there, tv, everything and um, right at the end, one of the red tops, obviously as journalists, right at the end, like you say, the columbica. Just one more thing will you be sharing this with your um, closer family, such as you know, your brother, and we're like okay, that's it now. Thanks for your questions. Be great, but you, that wasn't the dirty trick, right? So then we go. Okay, thank you very much.

Chris Norton: 27:30

The press conference has now ended. All the lights go down and we walk out. We're walking outside and luckily, camelot, very good at this, and they made sure that we always looked after the. That was my remit was to look after the media, but also to look after the winners, cause obviously they're not PR trained like everybody, like we've got clients. So, as we're walking out and I'm stood next to them walking the people out to wherever they're going to celebrate millions, the journalist walks next to them, gets chatting away, just like you're saying, have a nice little chat. And then went sorry, are you going to see your brother and I, literally as a chat, and obviously it was still on the record and they were trying to get the story and luckily I nipped it in the bud because I saw what they were doing. They did the Columbo question. So yeah, but, like Will says, it's very rare that journalists try to trick you up, and if you think there was 30 journalists, in that room and it was just one of the red tops which I won't name it can.

Helen Nugent: 28:28

Also. I feel quite responsible as a journalist, particularly having been a crime reporter, where you're really talking about people's lives, and there was an example of a Times columnist who is very well-known, who shall also remain nameless, who was doing a. Oh, I could probably look it up if I tell the story. Oh, I'll tell it who. It was a senior working class labour minister and I think, in an attempt to appeal to the sort of Blairite audience, had said, had kind of dissociated himself from his working class roots.

Helen Nugent: 29:02

And, um, the journalist in question thought, well, I wonder what his working class dad thinks about that. And so the story was just this quote about I'm not on working class anymore, blah, blah, blah. I'd have some media coverage anyway, rang his dad, didn't he? And his dad was absolutely ballistic. Uh, apparently the two never, the two never spoke again. It was front page. It was front page on our story, on our, on our times the next day. The journalist was absolutely gleeful that they've done this and I remember thinking, well, that's clever, but it's pretty despicable. And so I you've got a good journalist, will think responsibly about okay, is this in the public interest?

Chris Norton: 29:46

I don't think that was remotely in the public interest, but I bet the lawyers could argue that it was yeah, the door stepping journalist is what you're talking about here, the ones that you know, the ambulance chasers, they are out there.

Helen Nugent: 29:57

They're not all super professional itself yeah, I mean, I did a lot of what's known as door knocks and death knocks and the best yeah yeah, the vast majority.

Helen Nugent: 30:06

When someone's died and you go and you have to go and talk to the family, and the vast majority of journalists hate that. They know it's intrusive, they loathe doing it. Feel like a, you know, a complete heel. Um, but that's what you sign up for when you're a reporter and you can't do it when you shouldn't be doing the job so, um, just before we move on then.

Will Ockenden: 30:26

So how do we kind of um deal with this curveball question that might come our way? You know, probably we're not prepared for it. Do we answer it? Do we swerve it?

Helen Nugent: 30:37

I think it depends on the context. I always think deflection is a good way of approaching something and a light touch is a very good way of approaching something. Approaching something and a light touch is a very good way of approaching something. So, for example, that Paxman interview that you mentioned with uh and and Widdicombe um question, you just make light of it, you joke and you move on. The a good one with media training is give the journalist nowhere to go and if you answer it but don't really answer it, that probably helps. But if you just say nothing or you just keep saying no comment, they'll just keep drilling you. So it's a context thing. But I think it's absolutely fine to say I'm not prepared to answer. That absolutely fine, because you don't have to. Just because the journalist is asking you a question, you don't have to say anything. Yes it. That might become a bit of a story if you won't address it, but that's still far better than digging a massive hole with a comment that you wish you'd never said and that's something people do, isn't it?

Will Ockenden: 31:37

um, people naturally want to fill space, so if there's a silence, people just keep talking and keep talking, and keep talking. And a journalist loves that, don't they? Because then somebody answers the question. They answer a question they've not been asked on, and then they start revealing all this information they don't need to.

Helen Nugent: 31:53

All the time when, when I was training, when bbc gave me some good training and and particularly when you're on radio and it's knowing when someone's someone's basically you've interviewed, they're still talking, they've said all they want to say, but they don't know how to stop speaking because they're slightly nervous or they're panicking a bit and it just ends up that they stop making sense, they sort of dribble away and the journalist has very I have, you know, skills that I can use to bring that to an end without me cutting them off, and that's probably a different conversation, but it's um that's behoven on the journalist to make sure that doesn't happen. But I would also say silence is power, and particularly on something like tv or radio, less so when you're doing it on the phone or a zoom interview the, the journalists themselves. The broadcaster also hates silence if it goes on for too long, so they will fill it, do you not feel that you have to? But yes, the temptation is to try and fill, fill the gap, no, just stop talking.

Will Ockenden: 32:56

But it takes courage and practice to do that yeah, yeah, absolutely overnight um, something um which you've spoken about in the past is, um not accepting the premise of a question and, and, as part of that, also not repeating negative language that might be used in a question. Do you want to talk us through that and give us some examples?

Helen Nugent: 33:17

yeah, I think that's, I think, the don't accept the premise of the question. I I say this in all my media training and I think it's probably the most important thing that I tell people is don't just accept what the journalist has said. And the way the journalist will often frame it is you'll agree, won't you that? Or it's a fact, isn't it, and it'll be it'll. It was presenting it as something that's true and you do not want to accept that premise. All it takes is for you either to not address that part of the question or to say yes, for them to then turn that Not always. Again, we're talking about a very small minority of journalists that will do this. So for them to turn that into the headline. So GAO accepts that, says that, well, no, you said it. Well, I'm sorry, but you agreed with me. So do not accept the premise. And it's okay to say I do not accept that. Let's move on. Um, so yeah, that's one of the most important things I say to people. And what was the second thing about um?

Will Ockenden: 34:22

it's about, um, it's about repeating, inadvertently repeating negative language. So, um, you know, uh, helen, we know your company is going through a major crisis at this point. And then it's repeating the word crisis and you could reframe that as a different, more benign word, couldn't you?

Helen Nugent: 34:38

yeah, because the second you repeat that if you're with, possibly, a red top or something like that or some of the more uh out there news organizations, they will then put that as your quote and, theoretically, technically, that is your quote. Yeah, what you're doing is repeating that, but that won't be in the in the finished article. So if they say something inflammatory or negative and you feel you have to address it, use different language, and that's where your media prep comes in as well um, what about the personal question?

Will Ockenden: 35:12

so there's, there's an example. Um famously made all the um, made all the headlines, which, which is just horrendous. So the um head of barclays, um, I think in an interview um they asked him do you do you, do you personally, use a credit card? And for some reason, barclays being the uk's biggest credit card company, and for some reason he said no, I don't use a credit card because they're too expensive and then the headlines were head of Barclays. Um advice from head of Barclays don't use credit cards but that's an extreme.

Will Ockenden: 35:41

That's an extreme example, but um, we need to be a little bit careful, don't we, when these, these personal questions come in, don't we?

Helen Nugent: 35:47

again. Either, depending on the tone of the interview and how the interview's gone, you can say oh look, I'm not here to talk about my family, but thanks, thanks, thanks, thanks for asking after them, or something like that. You again, it's having these stock phrases in your arsenal that you've practiced with your media trainer beforehand, or your PR company, and and all or just say something completely anodyne, or okay or I or make a joke of it oh, come on, we're going to talk about that, or that's a bit of a daft question, isn't it? Maybe push it back onto the journalist saying well, that's not a real question. Come on, let's move on to the proper part of the interview. But the best thing to do is just to sort of laugh it off. Just laugh it off, because they can't quote a laugh. That's just going to look really weird this story. So, yeah, just be careful again what you're saying. And and so and you know he was. What was he like the ceo?

Helen Nugent: 36:38

he's very yes, crazy but it just shows you that even the most seasoned interviewees can make mistakes and and that's why when I do media training, some often companies will ask me to come back and do refreshers, because it doesn't matter if you have that session A year later. You might you might fall into a bit of sense of complacency, you might have forgotten that, you might not have had enough practice. But you know, you've got a big announcement coming up, so that can also be a really good thing, where you just have a little bit of refresher light touch and it can just basically bring you back to the important things that perhaps you'd let go a little bit.

Will Ockenden: 37:17

Yeah, I mean, that's fascinating, isn't it? It's having that confidence and being a little bit bullish in the interview and, yeah, having a light touch with a bit, you know, a bit of humour and quickly moving it on, you know, rather than becoming too defensive and too preoccupied with tricky questions. What about when people are actually standing in front of a camera then? So, you know, for a lot of people suddenly being filmed, what do I do with my hands? You know how do I stand, and you get some people that look incredibly awkward. Is there a kind of a checklist of do's and don'ts when it comes to actually appearing on camera?

Will Ockenden: 37:50

Yeah, he's asking due to his own experience there Alan Ask him for are actually appearing on camera?

Helen Nugent: 37:54

yeah, he's asking he's asking due to his own experience. Asking for, asking for a friend, asking for a friend, uh, corner friend? Um, yes, you often get people who are brilliant conversationalists and orators and you put a camera or a microphone in front of them and it's like a rabbit in the headlights and it does. It does change things, particularly if you're doing an outside broadcast and there isn't an interviewer actually there with you. You've just got an earpiece and you're looking into a black sort of circle and that is actually quite difficult. So there, but there are a number of things you can do to minimize problems in terms of how you come across, and body language is a big part of those.

Helen Nugent: 38:28

And I always say, if you're doing a broadcast interview and it's on a street where you have to stand, think about your stance before you even open your mouth. Root your feet, feet to the ground. Know where you're going to stand so you're not shuffling. Bend your knees a bit so you don't look like you're going to topple over. Don't, because you the inclination has become quite rigid.

Helen Nugent: 38:46

If you're nervous, decide in advance what you're going to do with your hands now. If you're, if you're quite relaxed, you might have expansive gestures. That's fine, that's how people move. But if you're fretting a bit about it, decide am I going to class them in front, am I going to class them behind? If I've only got a shot headshot, can I put them in my pocket? But the other crucial thing there is blokes, particularly empty your pockets because people have things like I mean, women have bags, they have keys, they they used to have loose change that's much less common now but they have keys. They might have something else that has a noise if you're touching or tapping it. So the key thing and you won't know you're doing it, you just won't and the stress thing is normally to want to just like a stress ball, want to touch something.

Helen Nugent: 39:33

So what I sometimes do is I have a tissue in my pocket that I can shred, but no one can see I'm doing it and it just means that you then stop thinking about your hands because you've just got this silent tissue no one can see. If it's again, it has to be a shot where you can't see the bottom half of you and by the end the tissue is shredded. But I've been pretty felt okay in the interview. No one can hear it, so, or have it even. You know, have something small that makes no noise or have nothing, but yet empty your pockets, for goodness sake and um.

Will Ockenden: 40:05

When you're doing outside broadcasts and of um, sometimes people get mic'd up like 20 minutes before the interview starts and there's some kind of hilarious examples. I mean, the example I always give is um mike, was it mike coop from sainsbury's? He's the ceo. So when they were merging with asda um, or they're due to merge with asda he was going to do an interview and they were going to all make millions from the deal and he was miked up waiting to start and he was singing we're in the money and he was just singing it for about five minutes, wasn't he? And it's just absolutely crazy. That's like. So is that you know? And equally what you know, people go to the toilet sometimes, don't they? Before the interview and the mic's still on. So is that? Um? How do we get around that?

Helen Nugent: 40:44

well, always go to the loo before you. They bike you up is a big thing and also, depending how they've miked you, you might not be able to disrobe if they've miked you up in a certain way, uh.

Helen Nugent: 40:54

So, yeah, always make sure you've done all your ablutions and everything before they mike you and assume that once you're miked you're on the record. Okay, it's all fine to have small talk and say how are you great? And you know, sometimes when you see documentaries and things and they've interviewed someone, they include some of that micing up stuff to show you a bit of color for the documentary you know, to show how they've sat down and gone hi, how are you so be aware? That can still appear, even though being mic'd up can appear in a future broadcast. I don't assume that the second you sit down they go hello, thanks for joining us. That that's when you're on the record, because that is not the case. I mean, mostly they aren't going to use it, particularly in the modern world where everything is standby and you've got two minutes to do anything. But you know, be careful. And that was, yeah, that was. That example was just awful. I mean, his press people must have just wanted to.

Chris Norton: 41:49

I don't know, go to the pub early.

Helen Nugent: 41:50

That's for sure.

Chris Norton: 41:51

The irony is it never happened as well, so they weren't in the money in the end. Yeah, I've actually had a similar experience. I was speaking at um, one of our events. We had a. We had a big event in Manchester and I was mic'd up and I spoke for an hour um, doing some like a big training thing, with about 300 marketing people in there, and at the end, at the end of it was, we had like a break bit where everyone went for sandwiches and coffee and then we and then there was a second period. So I was in the. So I came off stage, walked over to the food, got a drink and some food and was talking to somebody, but was still mic'd up in the main room with everyone sat there. Luckily, one of our clients was in there and luckily I'd done nothing wrong and said nothing wrong, which is quite a rarity for me and she came over and my client came over and went. Chris, just to let you know you're still coming out the speakers in there.

Will Ockenden: 42:39

So yeah, it can happen to anyone at least you didn't go to the toilet, chris. Yeah, exactly exactly. I'll go like that so one.

Chris Norton: 42:47

Thank you know, thank that. So, thank god, that's over so this shows about mistakes.

Will Ockenden: 42:53

I mean, I think we've covered a million mistakes, which is fantastic. Is there one big mistake you see being made in media interviews more than any other that you can think of?

Helen Nugent: 43:04

I can also give you a mistake that I made, not in an interview, but certainly in a judgment, in terms of publicity and coverage. But just to answer your first question, I don't know, it's probably the ones that we've mentioned, isn't it? And the one thing actually you do get is people going and coughing a lot, and I know that seems like a small thing, but it can, particularly in a really short clip, it can be overwhelming for the viewer or the listener In a radio interview that's pre-recorded, or tv, it won't really matter because they'll edit it out. So the thing to be aware of is what is your tick, because it will come across massively amplified on any kind of interview. And it's fine to go um and air a bit and a little clearing of the throat, because we're normal, we're human, that's, that's how you talk and that's how you interact. But if you're doing it all the time, it detracts from your message and that's all someone's hearing or seeing. So it's just to be to do lots of practice and pre-records with media trainers so you can look at yourself and go. I had no idea I did that and I've done that with clients where they're going. Oh my god, what God? What is that and I'm like well, now you know you can work on it so.

Helen Nugent: 44:16

And the other thing is to have a word at the beginning, like a sort of joining pause word, because a really big mistake is to rush into your answer and you see it quite a lot, and once you rush in and you're talking quickly, people speed up when they're nervous and then fall over their words and it always ends up being a really pretty terrible interview. So a key thing is to just talk a bit slower than you would normally, because when you speed up, at least you might still be at a normal pace by the end. And also my sort and have a have a pause or thinking word. And mine is well. So when someone you probably, I've probably said it many times in this actually where someone says to me so what do you think about this, helen? Well, I mean, I think, and it just means that you're not doing, oh, you're not doing, um, it still sounds like you're talking, but it's just allowing your brain to catch up and it's a bit like sort of being sitting. Are you sitting comfortably? Is your mind, is your mind ready? So I would have that have your own word for the little pause at the beginning, but the mistake in terms of something I've done, um, it wasn't catastrophic, but so I.

Helen Nugent: 45:20

One of my sort of sidelines is I run a website about the north of England called Northern Soul and its culture and its theatre and its food and its big interviews and its small business and we do all sorts. And I was coming home one night from, I think I was reviewing a show in Manchester and I stopped off at McDonald's. It's quite late and the girl and I said, oh, can I just have a cheeseburger? She went I haven't got any. I was like you haven't got any cheeseburgers. She said, well, because Beyonce's playing down the road at the arena and her staff just came up and ordered 700 hamburgers and like a thousand packs of fries. And and I and this girl was just like I just told me the whole thing and I was like, okay, I'll just wait there 15 minutes.

Helen Nugent: 46:03

I drove away and I thought that's a really good story, like Beyonce's, great for like metro or the mail or something 700 hamburgersers, 1,500 portions of fries, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, shall I put it on my site? And I thought, well, it's not really the kind of thing we cover. It's a bit more newsy, it's a bit light. I'll just put it on social media.

Helen Nugent: 46:24

Well, it went absolutely ballistic and other organizations started running news stories on it. I was being rung up asking for quotes from major newspapers in London. I ended up being friends of mine going is this you quoted today in the mail, and I was like, yeah, that's me. And I just thought afterwards, oh god, I should have just put it on the site because it would have driven an absolute ton of traffic. Now again part, and I shouldn't have been like, oh, that's beneath us. So and I look back and think, yeah, I missed it, I missed a trick there and I should have just, I should have just put it up. But you know, you live, you live and learn, and it's also that that that adage I mean.

Helen Nugent: 47:06

William Goldman says it's a really famous quote about the movies, and William Goldman wrote Butch Cassidy and he wrote Misery and he's very was a very, very well known Oscar winning screenwriter and his, his quote is nobody knows anything, and it was his take on you. Nobody knows what film is going to be successful and what film isn't. And I think you can completely adapt that to the internet nobody knows anything on the internet. I could not have predicted that that would go berserk. And then I've put other things up, like we interviewed Daniel Radcliffe once. Hardly anyone read it, but the same week we put up a story about a woman opening a potato van on market street on her own and it went bananas. So yeah, no, just nobody knows anything. That's that I. So I kind of fall back on that after my Beyonce hamburger mistake.

Will Ockenden: 47:59

I'm thinking of a headline for this episode, actually, and I think it might involve potatoes or Beyonce, so that's great yeah so there you go.

Helen Nugent: 48:06

There you've done your dirty trick. The one thing at the end where I tell a little joke.

Chris Norton: 48:11

Yeah, so you've been on this show now, helen, and you know how it it works. If you were us, who would you interview next, and why?

Helen Nugent: 48:20

in any field, ever anywhere well, basically marketing.

Chris Norton: 48:24

We're a marketing podcast, so oh, or anyone?

Will Ockenden: 48:28

that or anyone that's made any um horrific mistakes yeah, I think we can both think of somebody, can't we, that we both mutually know, but I'm not sure it's going to be him.

Helen Nugent: 48:38

I tell you who's actually really interesting is a friend of mine called Richard Stevenson. And Richard, he was my first ever lunch in journalism and I was his first ever lunch in PR back in 98. He's been since, been head of comms at post office, head of comms at civil aviation authority. He's currently setting up an airline with someone and he's their chief officer. He so he spent his life in PR and marketing and he has done quite a lot in politics as well. He was the youngest ever chair of the board of the Tory party and he's a great guy and he's got just a wealth of experience across a number of different fields and has some great anecdotes and is a good storyteller and I'm sure he'd be delighted to do it, so I would probably recommend him.

Chris Norton: 49:32

Good shout. And if people want to get a hold of you, helen, to utilize your skills, how do they get a hold of you other than googling? Uh, beyonce's cheeseburgers?

Helen Nugent: 49:43

well, yeah, I mean, that's one way to go. Uh, I'm thankfully I'm all over the internet because I've been doing this for years. But if you want to contact me, you can go to my professional website, which is helNugentcouk. But you can also find me on my Mediatonian website and brand company, which is Gato Nero, with two Ts GatoNeroMediacouk. And yes, if you Google me, you'll probably find me, and I'm on LinkedIn as well.

Chris Norton: 50:12

You didn't do five Live travel, did you?

Helen Nugent: 50:15

I did Five Live business.

Chris Norton: 50:17

Right, okay, Because I remember the name Helen Nugent Five Live something or other.

Helen Nugent: 50:22

I'm Sally Nugent's sister.

Chris Norton: 50:24

Okay, okay.

Helen Nugent: 50:25

I've never met her, we are not related. And then everyone else thinks that I write scripts for Coronation Street because there's someone there at Coronation Street called Helen Meejian. Okay, it's not me interesting, I'm too busy.