Chris Norton: 0:04

Welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast where you guessed it. We help you embrace the power of making mistakes and using our learnings to develop as marketing professionals. I'm your host, chris Norton, and I'm excited to introduce Abigail Dixon, the founder of the Whole Marketer, a community offering holistic support for marketers. That's in the form of a podcast, a book, book and workshop. Abigail has worked with leading brands, becoming a celebrated author, launched her own consultancy and discovered her personal why along the way a passion for helping marketers discover their themselves fully so they can align their personal values with the work to avoid that nasty burnout. This episode will see us discuss the concept of the whole marketer and how Abigail noticed this was something vital that was missing from the industry. It wouldn't be embracing marketing mistakes without the mistake, but she'll also be here to tell us about a scrap line that went horribly wrong. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's hear about the person behind the marketer and how to bring the two closer together to help you fully realize your potential. Enjoy, hi, abi.

Abby Dixon: 1:15

Welcome to the show Thanks for having me.

Chris Norton: 1:18

You're absolutely great to have you on. So we were just talking, before we started recording, about when you started your own podcast, because you've got your own podcast right. So I don't. We don't meet loads of people who've got their own podcast. There is millions of them out there. Do you want to tell us why you started yours?

Abby Dixon: 1:36

so it was the pandemic, and I was starting to do my book research for the whole marketer book and I thought to myself how do I get other people's voices not just mine and my opinion about the challenges that marketers are facing or the way in which they've approached it? How do I also get others voices into the book? And so what's more natural for me than writing which just sounds odd for someone who's written a book is to talk, to have a chat, and so that's where the podcast started. It started as podcast research ability to get that content out there a lot sooner than the book was coming to market. And, and here we are, 130 odd episodes later 130 episodes.

Chris Norton: 2:20

We've done about 70 and it's that's impressive, that's really impressive yeah, yeah. And so, out of all your guests, who's been the best? Would you say what's been the most insightful?

Abby Dixon: 2:32

I always um use a benchmark, which is if, after I've done a recording, I'm busting to tell someone of the conversation I've just had. So there's been. There's been a few people that I personally always wanted to speak to. So, like Mark Joplin is an example, but Emily Chang stands out in my mind. She's a lady who wrote a book called the Spare Room Right and talks about social legacy and, yeah, that one was just so powerful. Just her own personal story, how she's used it in her leadership style, how she brings it to life in her day-to-day, how she's almost used that as the principles for her life and she shares that with others. So they're the ones that that make me almost want to go and bust and tell someone straight away afterwards, the ones that I always, always, really remember and what's the secret to that kind of longevity?

Will Ockenden: 3:26

I mean, I read a stat earlier today saying something like um a 60 to 80 percent of podcasts don't make it beyond three episodes. So you're you've kind of smashed the 100 mark. What is the secret to that kind of longevity?

Abby Dixon: 3:40

that's a really great question. I think the why you're doing it in fact, I was talking with another podcaster yesterday and you know the why you do it because, as you guys know, it is hard work. You know it's hard work to think about um, the guests, the planning, the organization, the reaching out, the scoping of questions, the recording itself, the editing, the promotion, like all of it is hard work. I think as long as it's connected to something that is deep within you, the motivation to keep going will stand its test of time and for me, it pays to most of my values. So my values are connection, growth, generosity, helping others and honesty and, quite frankly, it plays to all of them. So for me there's a personal motivation as well to keep going and the reason behind why I'm doing it, which is to help marketers have more successful, more fulfilling careers.

Abby Dixon: 4:34

So you know, I know it helps so many the feedback that I get. That was really powerful. I'm going to use that. I'm going to send that to. I hadn't thought of it like that. Um, I'm looking for a job that was really great on my, whatever their challenges. I know it helps so many and I think that's for me is the other other reason that keeps me going yeah, I mean you're right, it's a lot more work than what people envisage.

Chris Norton: 4:59

You find people start, do five episodes or ten episodes day and then they stop because of the sheer volume of work that you've got to do to make a podcast work. So do you want to tell us a little bit about how you got into marketing then and what you've done over your career, because you've had some interesting roles. I was looking through it and you've even worked at Burger King, right, mm-hmm, what did you learn there Other than Whoppers are amazing?

Abby Dixon: 5:26

I mean Whopp, what did you learn? There other than whoppers are amazing. I mean whoppers, whoppers are the king. Um, they are king and whoppers are great and I got to eat a lot of whoppers. Whoppers with cheese no onion was always my order, because you can make it your way okay um, but yes, so what got me into marketing?

Abby Dixon: 5:39

I mean psychology, psychology really it was very much like the love of people, the interest of business, and that's what kind of started me in on the marketing path. And I've worked on a whole host of different brands and businesses across multiple sectors. So you know, started out in government working for the British Council and spent some time agency side before then moving into a lot more consumer facing goods brands like Bosch and Fisher, the DIY retail brand, before then moving into the holy grail of FMCG where I've worked at Premier Foods I know Premier Foods and Britvic and Burger King were headed up the marketing function for UK and Ireland before then moving into consultancy. So spent kind of 15 years clients died.

Abby Dixon: 6:32

One thing that was also a little side hustle at the time was I used to do training. So after I did my postgrad for the CIM, I then became a trainer and so I also used to do training at the weekends and one evening a week and I loved it, absolutely loved it. Loved the challenge of having loads of different students in the room from different backgrounds, different industries, different brands, at different stages on their own journey. You know, doing their assignment, applying the learnings. It would challenge me to think about different industries and sectors that I wasn't part of and, yeah, absolutely loved that. So kind of when it got to a bit of a career crossroads of what next consultancy training was definitely going to be part of the future. So being able to draw on my personal work experience, the experience of all the companies that I've trained and all of the students that I had at that time, before then kind of setting up Labyrinth and then now the whole marketer.

Chris Norton: 7:33

So you went off and wrote a book. Did you write the book during the pandemic then, or did you write the book? Did the pandemic have an effect on you writing the book?

Abby Dixon: 7:41

because a lot of books were written during the pandemic right I don't know who else wrote a book in the pandemic, but if I'm honest the pandemic made things easier yeah and yeah, so I.

Abby Dixon: 7:56

when you're in the process of writing a book, you kind of scope out what the book is, what it's about. You know the chapters, the outline. You have to write a sample chapter, like all of that happened before the pandemic, and you know, securing a publisher, something who also believes in your book and your concept, and then the pandemic happened. So actually, although at the time I was thinking how am I going to do this with my day job, which was, you know, consultancy and training and coaching and mentoring, and a lot of that work stopped because people at the time were used to only having training face to face, so my workload lessened and, although that has its own personal panic, it did open up a bit more free time for me and also the personal time that I would have spent going out and about and seeing friends and what have you also went. So a lot of evenings, a lot of weekends, a lot of time every day. It actually gave me more headspace and more time to write the book.

Chris Norton: 9:24

And so what's the sort of overarching theme of the book that you're trying to teach marketers? What are you trying to give them to take away from it? What's the underlying message?

Abby Dixon: 9:41

I think the underlying oh oh, there's many underlying messages.

Abby Dixon: 9:42

I think why did I write the book? I think maybe we start there. Yeah, I wrote the book because I had a Jerry Maguire moment. I was on a sun lounger in Cyprus on holiday and I was reflecting on the two weeks that had gone by and in those two weeks I had done a whole host of different work, as I do still to this day coaching, training, mentoring, consulting, capability work and every marketer I spoke to was fed up, like every marketer was feeling overwhelmed, frustrated, just it was a lot.

Abby Dixon: 10:11

And, as someone who's really passionate about the marketing profession was just like that's not okay, that's really not okay and not where I want marketers to be. So I thought, what can I do to help? And I thought, well, I can give them clarity because that's one of the things they were saying has changed so much and be a support function to one leading the agenda. Like what are the skills I need? Today? It's massively changed. Like a lot of marketers are coming from a comms background and now we're having to lead commercial agendas or maybe more specialist skills and what lacks some of the commercial skills that required, or maybe insight mining skills. So clarity on the technical skills. Let me give you that. Let me give you the clarity on what good looks like, what you you should be looking for, the ability to kind of assess your own skills so you know what gaps to develop. But how do I also help you face into reality the role, which a lot of it is, leadership, you know, it's leading projects and campaigns and bringing things to life, which takes a whole different set of human skills and leadership skills that we may or may not possess, human skills and leadership skills that we may or may not possess. And so let me share with you some of the soft or human skills that I have seen great marketers possess around curiosity and empathy and bravery. But also let me share with you what it means to be a marketing leader today, what it looks like to define your leadership style, what it looks like practically to lead a team, to give you some of those tools and toolkits to do that.

Abby Dixon: 11:37

And then, last but by no means least, how do I help you stop the overwhelm and feel more fulfilled, which was, in order to feel more fulfilled, you know, having that personal understanding about who you are and what you bring to the world, the confidence and of ownership of who you are and what you bring to the world, the world, the confidence of ownership of who you are and what you bring to the world. The ability to understand yourself on a much deeper level than kind of any personality profiling test. Anyone's done around your values, your purpose, what drives you, what motivates you, but also face into, like, what's holding you back, what's stopping you from achieving your goals, what are your goals? Because I believe that fulfillment comes when we're doing two things when we're either A edging closer to our goals or, b we're doing something that plays to our values, a bit like your earlier question.

Abby Dixon: 12:20

You know why should you carry on with the podcast? Well, because it's something that plays to all my values, so it motivates me. And you know how do we take action? How do we take action to take ownership for our lives and careers as a whole, because we bring our whole self to work. And so that's where that's why I wrote the book. I wrote the book to help marketers have more empowerment, to be able to take the reins of their careers, to feel that they are clear on what it need, what they need today to grow the brands and businesses of tomorrow to be successful.

Will Ockenden: 12:52

But actually, more importantly, they can feel more fulfilled in their jobs that theme of fulfillment I find quite interesting because, um, you know, marketing is is a very hectic career, isn't it? And and it's quite easy to get um sort of demotivated at times and completely overwhelmed. And, although this might sound like a bit of a glib question is is there kind of a starting point for people to kind of you know if someone is feeling unfulfilled or overwhelmed? And obviously you've spoken with hundreds of different guests on your podcast, so you'll have a kind of a unique perspective Are you able to kind of distill that all of those episodes down into a few sort of lessons, or where should people start if they are feeling overwhelmed?

Abby Dixon: 13:33

I think I always say personally, personal exercise, regardless of kind of what's in, what's in the book, is. I always start with a white sheet of paper. So I take a white sheet of paper and I write everything down that's in my head and that could be work related, that could be emotional concerns, that could be mental, mental load, everything from you know. Is there going to be a packed lunch next week for my son's trip, school trip? I mean, literally, that's something live. At the moment we don't do packed lunches. So I'm going to have to think about packed lunch, like everything that's in my head down on a sheet of paper, and start to think about what's in my control, what's not in my control, what's within my influence. And then the ability to prioritize or deprioritize or ask for help from others. And I think being able to have those tools in your toolkit to be able to take ownership of where you are when you are feeling overwhelmed, is really important. But also the reflection and self discovery to think about why are you feeling overwhelmed? Like what is it that's going on within you? Because it's never, as I always say, it's never what we're doing, it's why we're doing it. So what is the thing that's happening within you that's driving you to do too much, take on too much, have to do too much, worry too much, because that's really the level of personal understanding that we need to have. So you know what's the driver within you. Is it people pleaser? Is it being brave? Is it being strong? Are you asking for help? Are you not? You know what's the thing that's happening within you. You know, is it you trying to prove something to someone? Are you feeling insecure in a certain situation, like it's always for me, the breadcrumbing. It's always, you know, using what's happening to you and how you're feeling, to have the level of personal reflection to try and think and work out why. And I think that's very important. And, you know, can I distill all of the episodes down into key themes? No, is the honest answer, because everyone is individual.

Abby Dixon: 15:31

Um, but what I, what I would say is you know, if the one or two common questions I always ask the guests are what are your career highs and lows and what one piece of advice would you give? And usually the one piece of advice is always a message of empowerment, you know, a message of like, keep going or do this thing, or something that really gives the motivation, because marketing is so challenging yet so rewarding. You know it is we. It's great that we are leading the long-term commercial agenda of businesses, but with that comes accountability and responsibility, and so you know, what is it that we're doing and we are building into our lives of the whole to give us the resilience and the energy we need to deal with that is is so, so important and I think, with the career highs and lows, I think the common themes that if I was to on the spot there will think about what those common themes are about.

Abby Dixon: 16:21

Those lows, I would say it's usually when they don't feel supported, um, when a course direction has changed, that they're not aligned with. When there's been difficulties with the people that they work with they are all usually human related and they're not necessarily the technicalities of the job and most of the career highs is when they were getting to do something that they really resonated and aligned with them, whether that was a brand, whether that was a project, whether that was the people they worked with. Um, those were the themes that that always come, come through and is marketing?

Will Ockenden: 16:59

um, you know, is marketing worse than other careers? Do you think in terms of you know this? Perhaps the stresses on people in in the industry, the the lack of fulfillment at times? Or or is this an issue every, every kind of sector, faces?

Abby Dixon: 17:15

it's a great question. I think I can comment on marketing um. I think we have got more accountability and responsibility than we've ever done, for the right reasons, but the reality of what that feels like on our shoulders is a different ball game. We are drawn into the politics of having to get everyone aligned um, from, you know, board level all the way through to our teams, the agency partners that we work with. That takes a lot of emotional energy probably.

Abby Dixon: 17:47

Now I would say there's other roles out there, maybe a politician um, other people that are looking for alignment internally, maybe people, people that are running finance or, I don't know, sales divisions, but I think more so with marketers and the fact that we have to embrace the wider organizations. We're having to have conversations with all of those other functions as well. I think the breadth, the role, the change to the role, changed a lot. I don't know if I can think of any other profession that's changed quite as much. So, you know, if you think about maybe an accountant as an example, I would make the assumption as I'm not one that the way you know yes, sometimes um taxation changes, or the way in which that you know your profit and loss account, or the way in which you account. You know those stay fairly consistent, I would assume, whereas and your responsibility around that you're reporting, you're accounting, your taxation laws, some flexes here and there, but for marketing, our breadth of role has changed right.

Abby Dixon: 18:47

So if I think about when I came into marketing almost 25 years ago now, I was very much in support function, you know, working in the PR and comms space and our product or service was brought to us and we were asked to communicate it. And now we're asked to create it and develop it and bring it to market and communicate it and be responsible and accountable for its commercial and financial performance and measure that and track that and have the learnings and bring them back in and do that all over again. And someone on my podcast once said marketing is like pushing a boulder up the hill for it to roll back down and then have to not have a break before you have to push it back up again. And I think it is.

Will Ockenden: 19:30

I think that sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Abby Dixon: 19:32

it sounds very familiar I had such a hard relay with that, because it's like we get that thing to market, you know we see it on shelf or we go and experience this service or whatever it is that we're bringing to market, and then you know you go back to camp after one day and someone's like right next year, you know, next project, um, and all you know all the pain and uh difficulties that come with getting the alignment and making that thing happen and dealing with the setbacks and thinking about different ways in which you're going to bring that to market. Because the way that which you plan, as I always say, writing the strategy is one thing, but making it happen is a whole nother ball game, um, and all the setbacks that we change you the way. Nothing's ever a linear line. So I think there is definitely a need for resilience, probably more so than a lot of other corporate professions, I would say.

Abby Dixon: 20:23

But the speed of change and the way in which we change, yeah, I'm not sure what the professions I would compare it to. You know even what I say, even what I. You know what many of us have learned no longer remains valid in some instances, you know. Think about, um, how I was taught consumers make decisions, or maybe how consumers did make decisions, you know, 25 years ago, around this linear line and we would plan our communications around that. Um, that's not the world that we're operating in, whether that's with the technology, because of the understanding we now have about how humans make decisions, and behavioral science and psychological drivers and the emotion and the way in which we engage and what consumers like, all of it's changing all the time.

Will Ockenden: 21:14

Um yeah, I mean it's. Do you think marketers get the respect they deserve as as a career? You know, because you're right, the pace of change has never been quicker. There's so many different facets of the role. Um, you're highly accountable. Um, you know, it's absolutely relentless in some cases. You know, is it? Is it seen as a highly respected career choice? Because it should be, really shouldn't it?

Abby Dixon: 21:36

I think it should be. I think it depends on the organization and the orientation of the organization. You know, if it's a truly consumer, market-led organization and I think they do I think if you're very much sales-led, they know that you're important but you're working alongside. Um, if you're very much sales-led, they know that you're important but you're working alongside. If you're production-led, maybe they don't see the full potential of what marketing truly is and therefore don't get the full respect. But I do think that is part of the role. Is marketing having to educate the wider business on what it can do when given the opportunity.

Abby Dixon: 22:10

And you know we were talking about the pandemic earlier and a lot of people have often said to me um, obviously I work with businesses and brands across multiple sectors. You know all the way from pharmaceuticals to, you know, food and drink brands, and I think a lot of businesses who weren't market orientated were waiting for their chance and what the pandemic gave them was like the door got opened, a jar. It was almost like we don't know what else to do. We think we might ask marketing and they might be able to tell us or help us pivot, and almost like we're able to prove that, yeah, we can think about things that we can do differently in order to turn this business around, or, um, deal with the here and now of the way in which we bring our products and services to market.

Abby Dixon: 22:57

And you know, I know some people have really kicked that door down. They're like thanks for the job. I'll take that whole lot. Thank you very much. Now I'll come in and show you um, but you know, I think the respect is dependent on the orientation and a good a job that the marketer is doing, explaining the benefits. And you know we've still got a long way to go. To say we're done is an understatement, but we are definitely. You know, having the seat at the board and working with the chief financial officer, and you know, proving the investment and having the right conversations at the table, which you know we didn't see 10 years ago, and having the right conversations at the table, which you know we didn't see 10 years ago.

Chris Norton: 23:35

What is it? You do so in your job at the moment then. So you've got your podcast, you've got your consultancy business. What takes up the majority of your time, then, and what sort of? You said there that you work within numerous different types of sectors, because I was going to say, like, when I looked at your career history, I was like like, oh, you've worked in loads of different sectors, which has kept it quite interesting. So, like, which are your favorite and what are you sort of doing with them today, in 2025? What sort of stuff do you do with clients now?

Abby Dixon: 24:02

so a lot of the work I do with clients now is really the ones I work in partnership with, because of course I do a lot of talks and workshops and inspirational sessions and keynotes. You know that really kind of give marketers a G up or to think differently about how they develop their career or whatever that may be. The clients that we work in partnership with you know they they're our transformation journey, so they are looking at what is the role that marketing is playing within our organization. You know what's the vision of where we want to take our marketing. You know, back to what we were saying about the orientation what is it that business expects? Where do we want to communicate?

Abby Dixon: 24:33

it could get to to then think about how do we bring that to life and how do we give our marketers the clarity on where we're heading as a business, the role that they're playing within that for their brand or the business in their care, the skills and clarity around the skills that they need to deliver that, the training, the development programs. Um, but more so for me than just once one, what I say, one and done. You know the one coming in training and done, because that's not what drives competency shifts. What drives competency shifts is looking at. You know, the common request we always get in the profession is like, can you come in and help us write better briefs? Right? And it's like, yeah, we can, we can tell you the process of. You know, here's a template and here's what needs to go in it.

Abby Dixon: 25:22

But if you haven't got the insight and you haven't got the clarity about what it is that the wider business is doing, and you're not clear on the strategy, therefore you're not clear on what the role of comms is, and you haven't got insight beyond the assumptions that you're putting into it and you're not using the learnings from your past campaigns to communicate to your new agency and you're not giving this the amount of time it needs and setting clear kpis that everyone you know. I could go on and on and you haven't got the kpi budget to even track those things. You know there's everything else that sits around it and I think for me, training is more powerful when you've addressed the root cause issue as to why someone is doing what they're doing and you are able to change that process. Look at the inputs, look at how they're going to get that and navigate the ways of working or the process to do that, but, most importantly, giving them the support. You know.

Abby Dixon: 26:12

No one in this world goes on a two-day training course and comes out an expert right. So it's about going. So what's the support beyond? Are they're going to be mentors or they're going to be people they can rely on internally, or is that going to be us and our team? We'll still be here for you to check that brief once you've written it. Give you some additional builds, be there to help as, like a buddy, to make sure that we're stress testing the work that's being done Until you get to the point where it is best in class, and then you can use it as an example and help others. So that's a bit more about the way in which we would train and upskill very much more for the longevity than for the quick here and now.

Will Ockenden: 26:50

Well, that's quite an interesting issue you've touched on there. Um, you know the idea of kind of learning fade, the fact that you know, and we do an awful lot of training at prohibition as well, and we have various strategies to avoid that. You know, people are very enthused, aren't they? When they have the training they get it. Then their real life takes over. Suddenly it's monday morning and they don't, you know, and then, unless you work hard to avoid that, they don't really implement anything. Um, have you got any kind of tips or advice in terms of how people can avoid that kind of phenomenon of learning fade after they've invested in training?

Abby Dixon: 27:24

yeah, definitely, I think. Well, first thing is why are they on the training course and the driving course? So I train both in company, so companies that I'm working with, but I also train on open courses for lots of different industry bodies and I can tell he wants to be there. You know he's put their name up, he wants to be on that training course. He's owning their career, he knows his development area or something of interest that they need or they need to know more about in their job and they are, you know, reaching out right. The ownership is on them. They are there. They are there with a pen ready versus the person that's been put on the training course. So I think it is really the first thing is almost like understanding the level of motivation for why it's required, what that's going to mean to the individual if they've been put on the course and how you can almost communicate the importance of it so that when they do come in, they are there, they're wanting this, they want to be part of the journey, want to be fully engaged.

Abby Dixon: 28:22

I think the other key thing is the senior buy-in. So I work with a lot of senior leaders who want to. You know, subchange performance of the team it comes to training day. You know they've noticed these capability gaps within their team. They know that the outputs will be better as a result of it, but then they somehow can't make the time on the day. And look, don't get me wrong, I understand the pressure of the senior role, I've had them myself, right. But then they're not there on the day and or the problem with that is then they're not part of the upskilling. They're not using the same vernacular that the team is using. They haven't seen the challenges as to why someone can't do that thing in the room. And so, even if they can't be there on the day, like what is it that they are doing to upskill themselves to be the?

Abby Dixon: 29:05

I love the learning fade. I'm going to use that like the learning georupper, you know, afterwards to make sure that those changes don't happen. And I think the third one is to make sure that it can be put into the day-to-day straight away. So I'm sure you all know that. You know, as time goes on, what you've learned fades. You know within two weeks the percentages just stop dropping down. So you know if you're going to be training strat planning, you've got to be a strat planning process. If you're about to learn how to write better briefs, you're about to brief, you know, so that you can get that live, actionable learning happening straight away.

Abby Dixon: 29:42

And I would always say what are the prompts as well. So you know, it's all very well said. Oh, we want to fill out this template. Well, are you putting that with prompts of questions to remind them what needs to go in there, because no one's going to get out their training deck. You know? Um, I'm sure some people do. I would have been one of those geeks that did, but not everybody. So what are those training prompts, those questions to ask those questions? To consider an example of what best in class looks like, to aid and remind as they go through that process. And then, as I mentioned earlier, that support. But can someone check? Have I got this? Are we there? What's the refinement? Because no one learns how to do something in a two-day training course and comes out an expert.

Chris Norton: 30:21

I'd love to meet them if they are yeah, we had that just recently.

Chris Norton: 30:24

We've just about two weeks ago. We do a lot of training with universities. We've got quite a few university clients and the the we've. We've been booked in for three sessions, I think, and we turned up for the first. We will and I were delivering it to, and it was to train academics in how to use social media and like for personal branding and to like increase awareness of their own person, because academics have got amazing stats and opinions and exit and to use that as a for themselves and for the wider institution that they're working for.

Chris Norton: 30:55

And academics, though, often think they're smarter than marketers, so they won't turn up. And yet the ones that did turn up give you like 10 out of 10, because they we were showing them how to maximize linkedin profiles and how to get more visibility, how to get interviews off the back of, off the back of your research. It turns out that the people that didn't attend are now attending the next one, so you say, because they heard what the other ones that were doing on their profiles. So, yeah, I know you mean the learning fade is it is an issue with training, but the good thing about training, I think, is, I have to say on our training. If we meet somebody is like marketing people or whoever it is I'll say like if you could take you know one or two things from this training. These are the two or two or three, usually three, isn't it? Everything's the power of three.

Chris Norton: 31:37

Well, if you can take three, things from today is this you know? And if the you know, what is it you? And if you tell them what you're going to tell them, then you tell them and then you tell them what you've told them. That's what they say, isn't it for training? So I think that's a good thing. And you talked there about people making mistakes. Obviously, our show is about marketing mistakes. We've interviewed 65, 60-ish people anyway, and each person's got a different mistake.

Abby Dixon: 32:03

and you've told us think about a strapline mistake so I was working for this, uh, for this company, and I was the local market, and so the head office were developing campaign ideas. They would come up with a new product. They would say here's some campaign asset materials for you to use in local market. Now, if I was to give percentages, I would say 80 percent of the time they weren't relevant for the local market anyways. Um, which was which was a big draw in our budget, because we'd always have to then create new assets that were relevant to our local market. You, you know, whilst also trying to appease and keep with the look and feel of the global brand. And I had a situation where I got this strapline come through and, bearing in mind this was for, without giving the brand away, a consumer durables product. And so I get these assets through and it says because you never know where your next loose screw will be. And I just sat there. Okay, I'm glad you're laughing, but I just sat there and I just thought, you know, every time we weren't using the European campaign or the global campaign, we always had to kind of rationale as to why, and I just thought this isn't one that I can drop back on an email. You know I can't say all the imagery isn't relevant, for I can target consumer or you know whatever it may be. So off to head office. I went and I thought I'm gonna have to have the conversation and I played this over and over in my head about how am I gonna explain it, and I just kind of got to the place where I'm just gonna have to tell them and I had my head about how am I going to explain it and I just kind of got to the place where I'm just gonna have to tell them and I had to break it down. So I literally had to sit there and a colleague who worked with me we went together like in in force and she watched me squirm as I explained why loose was inappropriate, the cultural terms around that, why screw was inappropriate and the terms around that, why the imagery was inappropriate, because I think it was also, um, a snooker table as well. It was just the nuances around that and it was the most cringiest thing I think I've ever had had to do.

Abby Dixon: 34:17

Um, you know, to a, to a, a different culture as well. So not even a brit telling a brit. You know a brit explaining to another culture and you know we laugh at it now, but at the time it was multifaceted. It was like a I'm trying to do the best job I can to constantly explain what the needs are in the local markets. They can get fed in, um, cultural nuances cannot be sent on an email. You know it's very hard to be able to to do that and for you to get a feel.

Abby Dixon: 34:50

In fact, I went to a talk yesterday where someone was giving a talk about the five british isms to companies that were looking to enter into the uk and you know the way in which we do humor, the way in which, um, you know all the things that we talk about, the how our mindset, like, is very different, very different to a lot of other cultures. And you know people like to cluster us in the european thing, but we're different to the rest of europeans as well if we're honest with ourselves. So you know the ability to really connect with consumers, you know I would say never mistake, always a learning, I think. Yes, did they get that wrong? Yes, did they fully understand the local market? No, is that our job as a local market, to to really get them to also understand cultural references? Yes, did I think that I was gonna have to explain that. No, um, yeah, that was the one that I thought of when you asked me the question awkward is the word.

Abby Dixon: 35:55

I would think yeah, it was very I could still like, even to this day. I can still remember the table I was sat at, the dividers in the office of where we sat thinking is this going to be private enough because I don't want them to feel embarrassed when I didn't tell like all of it. Um, I still remember to this day oh, you're on mute.

Will Ockenden: 36:13

Well, have we just triggered you by? Um, okay, you have you take.

Abby Dixon: 36:17

Sorry about that on the head office and I was just, and my colleagues sit in there actually like almost like g-ing me on through her eyes like go on, do it um, something completely different that I thought our listeners might be quite interested in.

Will Ockenden: 36:33

And you're an awards judge, aren't you? Yeah, um, I think a lot of people listening to this will be writing awards on behalf of themselves or on behalf of their clients, and it takes ages, doesn't it? And you know, I think sometimes you know, if you understand the kind of the winning formula, you can get really good at it, because often it's not the best work that wins, it's the best award entry that wins. And, in my view, obviously you need good work that delivers great results, but there is a kind of an art and a craft to writing a compelling award entry. Um, from your perspective, then, as a judge, um, do you want to kind of break down, you know, those award entries that really cut through and get your attention?

Abby Dixon: 37:12

yeah, definitely. I think for me, when I'm looking at award submissions, I'm looking at a few things. I think the first thing is was the objective clear from the offset? Like I can spot a mile off an award entry that's been retrofitted where you know someone's gone. That was a really great piece of work. Should we um put a submission in and they're trying to pull those effectiveness scores together? Oh, it had some reach and some um you know, opportunities to see and here's some sentiments like that wasn't part of the original scope. So, real clarity, this was the problem. Like they're able to tell you the problem, the challenge for the brand of the business. They are able to tell you their approach, what that smart objective was like, what was the movement that they were looking to make, how they innovatively and I use the word innovatively like campaigns have been done in their approach time and time again.

Abby Dixon: 38:06

I remember reviewing quite a few award submissions on one round and they were all very much. We took a product, we gave it to an influencer, the influencer, max, shared the product and we got this reach. Like that's not innovative, that's day-to-day right and it's also not a campaign. It's it's and it's. Also you can't put an award submission in for something that's not a campaign. But you know, if you want to put real what I call karate chops around the movement that you are saying this is what we aim to do we were here and we wanted to get there then you know, day-to-day interactions with our social media plan isn't something that is innovative. And being really clear about what it was that you did differently, like showing that you've got real understanding of the challenges, the market, the dynamic, your competitors, like why you chose what you chose, the evidence and then the results, and the results that are linked to your objectives. You know, don't tell me about reach if your objective is all about consideration or you know, make sure they're married, make sure that they're married.

Abby Dixon: 39:10

Um, so yeah, that's what I'm always looking for in an award submission and and always, as you say, you know it's not always great work, it's it's great submission. I would say it's both. And you know I'm also then sense checking. So usually when we're doing as ward judge, what usually happens is you see the submissions, you do your independent scoring and then you come to a panel and you'll discuss your scoring and often you have to one panel that I'm on always have to the person who scored that person across the criteria. So also understand the criteria of what the people are scoring against, and scored high, scored low will have a debate and other people will chip in. So you know, give something in that award submission that's gonna really give the person that is trying to endorse you on that panel the thing to hang your hat on like why was this different?

Abby Dixon: 39:58

Why was this so revolutionary? Why was this new for the category or for the market or for the product sector in which you are submitting this for? And because often, sometimes award can be written really well and it might score across those criteria. But we're also so it's checking and going of all the submissions. Is this also a piece of work that needs to be rewarded in our industry, so that other people can see what best in class looks like? Was this new? Was this innovative? Was this show new thinking did?

Abby Dixon: 40:26

this show real insight, and that's always the sense checker. So even if you don't get it through on the scores, you might get it through on the endorsement, and if you don't get it through an endorsement, you might get it through on the new approaches that's really um.

Will Ockenden: 40:40

That made me laugh, actually, about the kind of back rationalizing on the objectives. I think we've all been tempted to do that. Shall we say um? But you know, it's about um. It's about not entering awards as well as entering them, isn't it, you know? And I think people naturally want to enter loads of rewards, but actually you do need to be innovative and different and have have solved a business problem, otherwise you're not going to win, are you?

Abby Dixon: 41:02

you're not going to get shortlisted and I think if you are going to submit them and often in some instances they, you know they have a fee associated for submitting them then do them properly, like you know all the ones that I see let's just say I get 20 per category and I have to go through all of them but there are those that you can see someone's put their heart and soul in and then there's someone you can see that was either removed from it or not motivated by it and they're missing bits, or they've got one sentence, or they've put some bits in one box and not in the right box. So it's like take the time not only to make it easier, but if you feel rushed to do it, then you probably don't want it enough.

Chris Norton: 41:41

Yeah, I mean the amount of awards entries we've written over the years. We've, I think, I think will's been, and quite honest, there I've seen him retrofit a couple, but then I've seen ones that have done that's not true.

Will Ockenden: 41:54

That's not true.

Chris Norton: 41:56

I've never done it um, I've got a question is to do because of the values thing you were talking about. You, um, and you know your own values, which is good. How the hell do you as, like, a marketer, how do you, like I've never sat down and gone right? I mean, I know what we've done, our company values, but you're talking about personal values as well personal values.

Abby Dixon: 42:17

Yes and um, I mean, how can they define their values? Well, there is a workbook on the whole market, so website that helps you to define your values. Nice plug, yeah, not that you. You know you teeth are up for me, but you know the process to learn your values is a process of reflection. So it is looking back, um, across your life, it's not just your career, your life as a whole looking at. There are many ways to do it and I kind of merge three different approaches into one in the work that I give. But you know, one of the exercises is about looking back. So looking back at moments in your life where things were your absolute best or your absolute worst, trying to use the ones where they really came to you and to map themes. So what was happening is. They're consistent themes, but, more importantly, it's not what was happening, it was why that was significant for you and what you were getting or losing.

Abby Dixon: 43:10

So a lot of people would, for example, have on that timeline um, maybe they lost somebody, maybe a relationship ended, maybe something wasn't going well at work. You know they're all common a broke, a relationship broke down, like they're all common life events that happen to all of us at some point, and it's not necessarily what was happening in that moment. It's about what were you winning or losing. Were you losing a connection? Were you losing your ability to be your authentic self? Where did you lose the person that you felt like you had a sense of belonging with?

Abby Dixon: 43:39

So it's really about mapping those things, um, really getting clear on the things that you know, the people that also the people that are already around you. So what values or things do you believe are important or deem of high importance that people that you really respect possess, and the opposite people that you don't? What they're doing and almost often the opposite of what they're doing that really jars with you is your value. You know, for someone that is never telling the truth, they're going to jar with me, because one of my values is honesty so yeah, so if someone's not telling me their truth, that we're never gonna.

Abby Dixon: 44:13

We're never gonna connect on that level. So, almost like that reflection in your interaction and your past lived experiences, and the one thing I'll also say is, you know, it's one thing to name your values. The magic happens when you start to define your values and what they mean to you. So just then, chris, you're like, yep, me and honesty exactly the same. Um, my definition may be different to your definition. So, you know, honesty is about having open, honest conversations with people where they share their truth. You know, to you it might be a definition maybe around not telling a lie, always doing the right thing, being having integrity, similar spaces, but mean different things to both of us. Um, and then, beyond that, even people that have defined them, because I know you're saying you know, not everyone's gone through that process using them. So, actually using them to be your guiding light. You know, using them to be reflective as to why some people you connect with and some people you don't.

Abby Dixon: 45:14

And use that as a degree of subjectivity, making sure that you set your goals for your year around your values. So you know, one of my values is growth. So I'm in the process of starting to set my goals, because I don't do them in january. I mean, january is enough, as it is right. So you know. But you know things that I'm toying with like is a training course that I might go on or a. You know, I've started learning the drums. Here's my drum kit. That was last year's goal.

Abby Dixon: 45:38

Like, it doesn't have to be always work related, it can also be life related.

Abby Dixon: 45:42

But playing to your values, um, people that you use, you know things that you spend time on, the organizations that you work for, you know aligning with at least some of your values or the role being allowing you to to play to some of your values.

Abby Dixon: 45:54

You know, if I had a role that didn't allow me to grow, that wouldn't be motivating to me, or if, uh, one of my values is connection, if I was working in isolation and in fact, once I was on a project, not good for me, not good for me because it just drains.

Abby Dixon: 46:11

So you know, you're always looking for like a cup and every time you do something, it doesn't play to your values, something goes out, and every time that you do something plays your values your values it goes in. So you need to keep doing things to keep that cup full, and it's not just things that don't play to your values, it's just life generally, isn't it? We've got everything that we need to do and then everything that we end up having to do that we didn't want to have to deal with. But guess what? That's life and that's adulting. So it's being really mindful and intentional with your values and using them to fill up your cup, to bring your motivation, to define your ideal role, to spend time with the right people all of those things and really put them into practice yeah, my wife talks about energy and people with the right energy and the you know positive energy and negative energy, people that suck it from you and people that give you energy.

Chris Norton: 47:00

You need to be surrounded by people that give you energy.

Abby Dixon: 47:03

Definitely Radiators and drainers is what I call them. I stole that from Davina McCall, and it's those people that radiate energy and they give you energy from being around them, and those that you've been in a room with them are just absolutely saps you.

Chris Norton: 47:16

Yeah, true Will. I've got one question which was about what some? Have you ever had any unusual feedback from your training sessions? When you, when you're going through these, this training with um marketing professionals, you know any unusual feedback?

Abby Dixon: 47:36

no, no I can't think of any unusual feedback that's good.

Will Ockenden: 47:41

I think I know why you've asked that question, chris. Um, do you remember the feedback we got and I'm not going to name who from was? Do you remember that it was um spoke too fast and it's really. Is that really rude feedback, wasn't it?

Chris Norton: 47:55

yeah I can't remember what they said about us some people you do gel within, some people you don't, obviously like what abby's just been saying, which is what you know. So, like you know, filling up your cup, positive and negative, I just wondered if, uh, because not every a lot of marketing professionals are the same. They're creative people, uh, and we're like we always we're from the pr world and we always say pr people can't do math, which is quite, which is, which is true, and there's quite a lot of similarities. So just wondered if you ever got any unusual feedback because of, yeah, because of people's values, etc. But maybe not.

Will Ockenden: 48:27

Okay, fine, um, well, you got any more questions. Yeah, so I was just looking for that feedback, just because it's really funny, isn't it? I'll see if I can find it. Yeah, it was awful, was awful. It was like really, it's really insulting.

Abby Dixon: 48:42

Anyway, I'll maybe do it. What I would say, though, from a training perspective, is I don't know about you, but you're always in front of a room of people, and often people that you don't know, and you know, or at least I'm assuming that they're trying to figure you out and you know, or at least I'm assuming that they're trying to figure you out and you know. As a trainer, we were always taught this established credibility like upfront. You know why are you the person in the room today? You know your background, your experience. You know straight away, so that there isn't any question about your ability.

Abby Dixon: 49:16

But the other thing I always do is an exercise called who's trying to figure me out. But the other thing I always do is an exercise called who's trying to figure me out, and it really breaks the ice because, instead of them sitting there trying to go how old is she? Where is she? Why is she doing this? Why is she here? Why her blah, blah, blah it's like.

Abby Dixon: 49:33

Actually, I use it as an exercise to say so what's your level of depth that you go to when you're trying to figure out a human? Because, at the end end of the day, as marketers, we're trying to understand the deep-rooted emotional reasons why people do what they do right. So I'm looking for the kind of questions that they're thinking about me as something new into the room that they potentially went before, and I use that as a good barometer of how deep are they going, but also to just break the ice around. Get the thing that you've got in your head out. You know, even if it's like where are my shoes from? Just ask the question so that we can get on with the training. There's nothing in the forefront of your mind curiosity curiosity yeah, just the number one thing you want.

Chris Norton: 50:13

It's what you want in all your employees and everybody. You work with curiosity 100 well, thanks for coming on the show, abby, and if people want to get a whole, oh, I've got one last question. So you've been on the show now, yes, and we always look for a mistake. If you were, if you were us and you, this is great because you've interviewed loads of people. So if you were, if you were us, who's the next guest you'd have on our show and why?

Abby Dixon: 50:38

I would have rachel moss on the podcast. And I would have her on because you like to embrace marketing mistakes and she gave a very good one on her on my podcast that she did with me. Um, about her time, I won't ruin it when working for a well-known fmcg brand and, uh, it's a thing I see happen time and time again to marketers, so I would have her.

Will Ockenden: 51:02

Great great tip I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued.

Chris Norton: 51:06

I am as well. You've set that one up Great. If people want to get hold of you, what's the best way to get hold of you, Abby?

Abby Dixon: 51:12

They can get hold of me on LinkedIn or via the whole marketer website, which is wwwthewholemarketercom.

Chris Norton: 51:20

Yeah cool, via the whole marketer website, which is wwwthewholemarketercom. Yeah cool, I often so. I always say www, but it's like you don't really need. We used to say it's like that. I don't think anyone says it anymore. Do they just go straight into the?

Will Ockenden: 51:29

it's like with email addresses all lowercase no yeah, completely.

Abby Dixon: 51:35

I don't know why we say that, but maybe it's because it's the fear that it won't work for those people that grew up in in the world of business.

Abby Dixon: 51:41

I was saying to someone the other day that you know, when I started work, email had just come out and we used to practice using it in the office, like send it to our colleague and be like did you get it, sophie, did you get? Did you get it? And that was before the external. Yeah, and the other thing we used to do was um send things hard copy because we used to fax things and we used to love faxing and we weren't sure they were going to get there right, so you'd also put it in the post.

Chris Norton: 52:07

So it's like if the fax didn't come through two days later, you'd also get it yeah, when I my first job in pr was about 1999 god, I'm old and um, if you there were emails but like the sun had one email address for the whole everybody at the sun, you know, like that's just an example of one media, all the media. They had one, one email, but I used to love it and faxing press releases so we could do shit and just a mat scene and it comes out the other. It was just like it is an amazing thing, whereas now email is not as amazing as fax, I don't think but it is more accurate and quicker and you know it gets that.

Abby Dixon: 52:41

So that's probably why we use it and always wait for that little read report afterwards to make sure it's gone through. Like the anxiety levels, you used to sit there and wait and be like it's out, it's gone.

Chris Norton: 52:51

And if it pulled it through like halfway and went wrong, you had to do it again Because it wasn't cheap either. Was it Fax it? It wasn't cheap, Cool. Well, thanks for coming on the show.