Chris Norton: 0:00

Welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast for marketers looking to laugh and learn from the mistakes of other marketeers. We take a look at some serious marketing blunders so that you know what to do and what not to do in a similar situation. I'm your host, chris Norton, and I'm excited to have Howard Moss join us in this episode. Ceo of Astonish Cleaning Products, a family-run business with humble beginnings in Leeds turned international success story, he's also a client. Howard is here to share the journey the brand has been on and what he's learned along the ride, from the challenges of navigating the intricacies of a family business to building a portfolio of products that has found fame in more than 30 different countries. We'll be chatting about how Astonish has swept up the competition, how to polish a family brand and how to keep sustainability and cruelty-free claims spotless. We also promise those are the last of the cleaning puns. Please, god, as always, sit back, relax and let's hear all about the Astonish journey and what it takes to market the modern family-run business market.

Will Ockenden: 1:03

The modern family-run business so.

Howard Moss: 1:07

Howard Moss. Welcome to the show.

Chris Norton: 1:14

Nice to be here and thank you very much for having me. I mean, you're a client of ours, that's the first disclaimer, so congratulations to being, I think, is Howard, the first client that's ever been on the show Will.

Will Ockenden: 1:22

I believe. So, yeah, congratulations.

Chris Norton: 1:26

Yeah it's good to be the first in something we're 68 episodes in and we've yeah, we haven't really um had any clients that we've invited on the show, so, um, but we think is that an omen, or is it is it? We'll find out at the end of it. Yeah, um for those of you. So you um. For those of you that are not familiar with astonish, can you give us a quick overview of the brand and why it's sort of a little bit different in your sector?

Howard Moss: 1:50

so astonish is. We manufacture household cleaning products and hygiene products. We've been established now for a little over 50 years. Everything we do is manufactured in our single uk west yorkshire site, which we're very proud of, which is bradford. Yet, um, we were established in leeds, so we've always kept our, our west yorkshire roots. Um, and we, um, we supply pretty much 80% of what we do here in the UK and about 20% of what we do to global markets all over the world.

Chris Norton: 2:29

Yeah, wow, because I mean I went to the event that we had in was it December?

Howard Moss: 2:35

Yeah.

Chris Norton: 2:35

So we had for those of you that don't know you guys held an event with the clean influencers cleaning influencers, that's right. So I was surrounded by a room of and I've done loads of influencer events, but this was so random. There was like videos popping up of people cleaning everything from sinks and toilets, and it was just. It was like and there's something about watching videos of people cleaning that's quite hypnotic. But you held this brilliant event where you had loads of clean influencers in the room and I just thought it was such a great thing that you were celebrating excellence in social media, of cleaning, and you'd got them all together, you'd put the whole event on and got, and one of the things that stood out for me was that you had people that had come from as far as um, what was it?

Howard Moss: 3:18

the isle of yeah, there was one lady, I think she. Uh, she had to get a plane, a boat, a train. Yeah, um, I think she set off about 16 hours prior, so, um, no pressure to make it a good event.

Chris Norton: 3:29

Yeah, they were all winning awards for the best reel, different, different things in different platforms, so that, yeah, I thought that was a really great. How long have you been doing that?

Howard Moss: 3:38

so we've been. I mean the actual, the, the influencer part, chris, is something where, um, we're very, very fortunate that, as you say, it seems to be that cleaning products and these people posting on their platforms transformations of, you know, miraculous before and afters. It's got such a, you know, a real appeal to followers and people watching. So that probably started. The real hero of the digital platforms was Mrs Hinge. So if you're familiar with Mrs Hinge, she became a phenomenon probably around about eight years ago, and she took brands that everybody you know are well-known brands, you know multinational brands, everything from P&G to Unilever, etc. But she also went out to cherry-pick you know not-so-familiar brands and would pick them to do these amazing transformations, and it took off from there. Um, and then you, you know you had um loads of of other influencers that suddenly became um, very passionate about the cleaning sector it's quite interesting because that your that sector is like you're the influencer sector.

Chris Norton: 4:59

So some clients think our influencers are, they're not like the traditional media, they don't have the same sort of power. Um, I've got we were just talking beforehand of a client I've got that's um, they're like a local, um, a local park where people can go, and when we get the media down, like the broadcast media, the tv, and we do something like that, they're absolutely buzzing about that because they're on tv, whereas if we get one of the biggest influencers in the uk to bring their family down to the park and use all the facilities, they're not as they just don't see it, whereas you guys, I feel like you've got like a modern view of it and you're headed social media and everything. Was hosting the event and was dressed up in a green Santa's outfit, which really confused me at the beginning as well.

Will Ockenden: 5:37

Yeah, so did Mrs Hinch originally kind of organically discover your brand then.

Howard Moss: 5:47

Yeah, what we've ended up doing, will, is we've ended up basically engaging and, as Chris has said, our head of digital, which is Nick, who's a family member and he had no previous history with anything digital, really, he actually worked prior to joining Astonish, probably 15, 14 years ago now. He was working for ITV for many years as a videographer and as an editor. So he came into Astonish when we literally didn't even have a platform on facebook, instagram, etc. Um, and as our brand was evolving, um, and we, like I say we've already been established for, you know, a good number of years by that stage um, I asked nick to come in um and really, just, you know, he started off part-time because he'd had enough of sort of I think he'd reached the ceiling, really, where he could go within ITV. So he started off part-time and it just it really snowballed from there. It was just something where, like I say, you need a bit of luck and certainly Mrs Hinge coming on board, she catapulted this massive sort of craze.

Howard Moss: 7:07

Um, you know, with regards to these um, different cleaning methods, different um hacks and different you know, products out there, like you say, that um, people weren't necessarily so familiar with, and I think what we then did, um was we started to really engage with them, send them samples out, keep them informed of anything new that we were bringing on board. Um. So we're not actually physically um paying for these influencers to post stuff on our behalf. Everything we do is it's it's real, it's true, it's authentic um. They're actually using our products because they truly believe in them, rather than, you know, us forcing them to um use a product and post on it because we're paying for it. Their support towards posting on their platforms, like I say, by the fact that we're not investing in them other than the fact of sending them samples and really making them aware of our products.

Chris Norton: 8:14

And Nick had become a bit of a celebrity as well. They were all wanting their picture with him because he's been working with them for so long. It was quite entertaining to watch because they were all famous in their own right, loads of different accents from different parts of the country. It was exactly. It's fascinating, so can you.

Chris Norton: 8:29

While I was at the event, the biggest thing that stood out to me was your, the story behind you and your family, and how this, how astonish, was established yeah, do you want to just walk us through that, because I told will a bit about it as soon as I came back the next day, because emily, our team that work on the pr account have told me about, but when you started telling it from your side, it was really, really interesting. So do you? Want to tell us a bit about what, how it all came about yeah, um.

Howard Moss: 8:52

So we are a family business, second generation now being myself um. So my father started the business um. We're actually not 100 percent, chris. Sure, when he when the official launch of um his business, but it was around about 1971, um and he'd just come back from canada, so he left school at 15 um didn't have any qualifications of any sort um, and when he left school um as a 17 year old um he went to live in canada um, him and a friend. They traveled out there um. They literally had enough to keep them by for a week um up until getting out there um, you know, and and finding work um. So my father's going to be all being well, please god, he'll be 80 next.

Howard Moss: 9:41

So if you date it back um to being a 17 year old, you're looking at a little over 60 years ago, um, anyway. So they went to Toronto um, and if you fast forward, my father ended up living there for two and a half years um. His friend came back quite soon after after being out there. But my father got um he's got his first job in a shoe shop on commission and and did really well um to the point where one of the guys who he sold shoes to um ended up having like a white goods business where you went out door to door selling white goods because in them days, you know, fridges, freezers etc weren't in stores, um, so then he asked my father to come and do that for him, which he did do, um, and he ended up just being a really, really good salesperson.

Howard Moss: 10:30

So, um, he was there for two and a half years and I think if, if it wasn't for his own father sort of saying look, you know, I want you to come back to uk. You've been out there a while now. Unless you know, you're gonna see yourself living there for the rest of your life. You know, I want gonna see yourself living there for the rest of your life. You know, I want you to come back you there's no internet, then either, isn't it?

Chris Norton: 10:48

it's not like you can have a have a face-to-face chat exactly um, so his family were missing him.

Howard Moss: 10:53

So he came back to the uk um, living in leeds there, um, and he went to be a demonstrator um, and he went to work for a guy who was doing um demonstrations at um agricultural shows like the um, the ideal home exhibition, the great yorkshire there was a whole host of these shows all over the country and one of his products that um, or his main product that this guy had, was a cleaning product in a metal tin that was like a hard paste-type product and it was used as a mild abrasive on a variety of, you know, different cookware items, different surfaces, anything that wasn't either highly polished or painted. It would remove the most stubborn burnt-on stains, et cetera. So my father was working for this guy and, you know, understanding all the demonstration and getting to you know grips with it all and then eventually became, you know, really, really skilled at doing these demonstrations himself. The guy who who was working for um, he'd it pretty much he was reaching retirement um quite soon after my father being there and he, you know he took a shine to my dad because he'd he could see he'd got a real heart for for doing these demonstrations probably, um, you know, was even more sort of like, enthusiastic as he was doing it, than this guy himself. So he said to my father look, you know, I've got these established. You know shows that I've had secure bookings at for years and years. I've got this product that is under my name, that I get manufactured for me and I do at these shows. Do you want to take it on? And you know, we'll agree on a royalty. So that's what my father did.

Howard Moss: 12:51

By this stage he's met my mum. They've ended up getting married and having my sisters and myself, me being the youngest of three. And that's what my father was doing these agricultural shows all over the country. And then the next thing was that, whilst he was doing it, they're quite seasonal. So these shows are Summer, aren't they? Yeah, tend to be more sort of like spring, summer, winter time, not a great deal going on. So you know my father's thinking. Well, you know, what can I be doing during that time? You know, I can't just work for a short period and it's great, um, but there must be something else I can do.

Howard Moss: 13:32

So, um, my mum, um, who sadly is my late mum now, um, she had a sister living in florida, um, who'd been there and she'd moved out there. She was a dancer and originally in new york. Um went to be a dancer there and then met her us husband there and they moved down to florida when disney was getting built and because her husband was an electrical contractor, so he took an opportunity there and they were um now based in florida. So as a young family we used to go out and visit them. Um, you know, do all the disney stuff at the same time.

Howard Moss: 14:11

So whilst my father was out there and it tended to be in winter time that we'd go um, so around about december, january, um, my father came up with the idea that you know what, what you know, surely this products that I do, these demonstrations, will be amazing out here if I could demonstrate it out in the US. So you know, we spoke about my mom did a bit and again, you know, these are the days where you're going back 50 years ago. So no, like you say, internet or ways of research, let's say other than just do the digging yourself. So, in true entrepreneurial spirit, he started to plot where he could do these demonstrations. And they didn't have agricultural shows as such. They had, like these, flea markets. So he took an area that was in the deep South of the U? S? Um, don't ask me why, um, but that's where he decided would be. Um, there must've had these flea market shows that he's got wind of or been told about.

Howard Moss: 15:17

So he now sends the this is the following year.

Howard Moss: 15:21

Once he's, you know, structured it all, he sends stock that is purchased out to the US and he now flies out there to basically go and demonstrate this stock.

Howard Moss: 15:32

He's rented a van, picks up his stock and he's now going to demonstrate at these flea markets and about fast forward. Now, about three or four weeks after being there, everything that is sent out there right is barely sold a thing. So now he has to ship the stop back to the uk, gets on with his, his uk demonstrations etc. And then says to my mum after you know, incurring quite a cost and everything he says do you know what? I still think we can do this in america the demonstrations, he says I just think I got the wrong area. So my mum wasn't um best pleased because she's thinking you know, you got a young family, you're now going to go and, and you know, risk a a lot of money, which you know to them at the time. So the following year he now decides to send the stock out again and he's worked out an area on the west coast of America, california way.

Chris Norton: 16:56

Better weather.

Howard Moss: 16:57

Better weather, different style of you know where these sort of flea markets opportunities were and the polar opposite the stock that he'd sent out within two days it's gone.

Chris Norton: 17:12

So it's been an unbelievable success.

Howard Moss: 17:13

And now for around days it's gone. So it's been an unbelievable success. And now for around about five years, chris, he's now got a split market where he's got his UK demonstrations that he's doing and he's got his US.

Chris Norton: 17:27

So he's got a solid website.

Howard Moss: 17:28

Correct, right, and I guess he had a real love as well, for you know what he was doing in the US. I mean, this is you know when I'm talking now. It wouldn't be unheard of today for somebody to go out to the US and sell a product that they've come up with. But you've got to go, you've got to put your mind to this was 50 years ago and it really was courageous, entrepreneurial, and you've got to be brave and you've got to be determined Because, again, what you're familiar with here the great Yorkshire show, the idea, like you know, over there it was. He was completely oblivious to it up until he got started. So the next big thing was the product at the time was called clin, clin, k-l-i-n. Clin. So this was the product that the guy who has gone to work and demonstrate for originally this was his product that he was back clin, um, I guess it was maybe a spin off from Clean, but that's what he's come up with Class and Clean exactly, and it was in a yellow tub, metal tin with black writing.

Howard Moss: 18:44

So whilst he's in America doing these shows, somebody's bought one of the tins off him and it so happens that they're a buyer for a department store in new york and on the back, you know again, in them days, no internet, no, nothing. It was all like telex and fax numbers, um, and a telephone number. And the next thing, um, they've got a fax come through and it basically, you know, we've bought this product da-da-da-da-da, wherever it was in the US. We think it's the most incredible product. Right, we own a department store in the US. We'd love to buy the product for our department store, for our kitchenware area, you know, to clean these tough burnt-on stains. But we think the name's rubbish. Can we pick our own name and you can supply us it.

Howard Moss: 19:41

So they're not understanding that my father's just really like a one-man band that's going out demonstrating. They're thinking they've got in touch with some, you know, cleaning manufacturer. So the next thing they've flown my mother and father out to New York, wow, mother and father out to new york. Um, they've. They've then had a whole um marketing, um discussion around this product and what name they can come up with. Um, and lo and behold, they've come up with the name astonish, and they've come up with it with a half union jack above the brand. Um, you know, and if you look at some of our, you know very first packs that came up, you'll see the word which was just in block. You know literally caps, um. You know lettering astonish with a half union jack above it, um, to symbolize that it was a british product anyway. And again my father's going along with it that he manufactures these products, et cetera.

Chris Norton: 20:42

Your dad's not a marketeer.

Howard Moss: 20:43

He's not a marketeer, he's a salesman more than anything, isn't he? He is, but I think he also was. What he was very, very passionate about was, I guess, his products and how it could be used. And I think again which I'll come to in a minute what America did as well is that what they were doing nearly 50 years ago is very relevant to what our market is today, and I'll come to that Sort of certain aspects about what Astonish stands for today really stemmed from what my father saw in the us all those years ago. So now he goes back to the uk, he's doing his demonstrations, he's got his clean products etc. But he's making this product through this manufacturer that is buying clean off. He's now making the same product, but instead of it being in a yellow tin with black writing called Klin, it's in a white tin with the wording Astonish in blue and a half Union Jack above it.

Chris Norton: 21:47

I wonder what the guy said who originally had Klin, when he wanted to change the name of it. Was he not bothered, obviously?

Howard Moss: 21:52

Well, the guy who took the demonstrations off is still doing Klin now, my friend, because the Astonish is just going to this department store, right, okay, so it's their brand technically and they're not buying big volumes, it's just for one department store. And now we fast forward a year and my father's still doing what he's doing and this small stock's going to this department store under Astonish. The department store goes bankrupt, goes into chapter 11 over in the US. So they didn't owe him anything because they were buying the stock, you know, paying for it, sending it over. But my father just thought you know what Sod this? Right, I've got this brand called Klim, which doesn't really, doesn't really look great.

Howard Moss: 22:42

Everybody you know I'm doing this demonstration with. Everybody loves it when I'm doing it. But I've got this gorgeous tub that you know has been designed by this department store, the great name astonish, half union jack. I'm just going to start doing that instead now. So that's what he started to do. So clint now goes away, astonishes what he's doing in all the demonstrations. Um, and that's how it goes on. And then the next um, major um, part of the history is um, the, the company where he's buying the product from in the West Midlands, right in Solihull, they're suddenly having trouble right Supplying him with the product. So now he's thinking well, if I don't get this product, I'm out of business.

Will Ockenden: 23:27

I've got moth he's got all just to be clear. It's one product, you've only got one.

Howard Moss: 23:31

He's well by this stage will. Um, he's got the main one product which is in this tin, this, this mild abrasive, and there's actually a second product that's like the equivalent to like a SIF cream, so it's like a liquid version of what's in this tin. So he's generally doing two products and then he would also do things like sponges and cloths, accessories for it to use. But if he can't get the product supplied, you know that's it, it's gone. So again, you know, you look at somebody with um, you've got to be so resilient and so determined, and so you know forthright in in your beliefs as to how something can happen.

Howard Moss: 24:20

Um, a lot of people would have, just, you know, sort of folded at that moment, um, but he didn't. He just thought, well, how hard can it be to make it? Um, and again, you need that bit of luck, um, and one of the guys um who, um, he used to deal with is like his sales contacts at this company who were supplying him. He was also not happy because he was on commission and out of work now because things weren't getting done by them. So he said he'd help my father understand how to make it.

Chris Norton: 24:53

The recipe basically.

Howard Moss: 24:54

Yeah, and just he sort of had an idea how this product was put together. So they bought an old secondhand mixing sort of pot, if you like, from a scrapyard and by this stage my father's got like an old shed on Meanwood Road in Leeds which he still owns today himself. Personally has he got a blue plaque outside it which he still owns today himself. Personally has he got a blue plaque outside it. And from there, after probably umpteen failed attempts, they've eventually started to make the product.

Will Ockenden: 25:34

Sounds like George's Marvelous Medicine, where they endlessly try and recreate the original concoction.

Howard Moss: 25:37

Well, the stories that it would tell me on how you know, just be, kate, you know, from head to toe in because it's got like, um, uh, a mineral. It's like, you know, to the naked eye it would just look like flour, um, and then, but you know, you're mixing that with waters and various other things and um but producing something is a whole different skill set again well, of course it is, and, and, like I say, you really have to have that entrepreneurial spirit.

Will Ockenden: 26:05

That tenacity is I mean all through, from the very first point, that tenacity to head out to America to not be beaten. And you talk about luck, but actually I think you make your own luck in these situations, don't you?

Howard Moss: 26:17

You do and I think you've also um, when you do get um an opportunity, whether it was the first person who we met um being able to demonstrate when he came back to to leeds from being in canada, when he um started demonstrating and went to the us and it failed to have the gusto to go back and and it again and then to have a department store, you know, take the product but want to rename it. So all of these different things you know are huge chapters in where Astonish has come today, and so I look at it by now, is manufacturing. And then I guess at this stage, if we fast forward a little bit, is when I start to join the business.

Chris Norton: 27:02

How old are you when you start?

Howard Moss: 27:05

So I was a failed student, chris, or should I say a student that you know probably enjoyed the social side of it more than me Of what?

Chris Norton: 27:16

What did you study?

Howard Moss: 27:17

So I went to, having left school at sixth form originally, which disappointed my parents because they were obviously passionate about it. They gave me an opportunity to go to a really good school in Leeds. That I wouldn't say I was a rebel, but I think I enjoyed the sports side of things and just sort of life itself, rather than knuckling down and doing what I, you and Wolfdale College to do a B-set there in business and marketing, which I liked. I enjoyed the course and then after that I went to Manchester University or, what was sorry, manchester Polytechnic.

Chris Norton: 28:14

Manchester Met, now client of ours.

Howard Moss: 28:16

And Manchester at the time in the what are we now, chris? And Manchester at the time in the what are we now, chris? We're in the early 90s was an absolute incredible scene. I loved every minute of it.

Chris Norton: 28:28

When were you there, hacienda?

Howard Moss: 28:30

Yeah, all the bars and clubs.

Will Ockenden: 28:33

Lots of temptations to not study and go out.

Howard Moss: 28:36

Yeah, and what's great is, you know, the guy who I live with in the first year is is still today fast forward. My best friend, um, was my best man at my wedding and vice versa, so, um, it's something where I had an unbelievable time, um, but after being there two years it was a four-year course, it was a business and marketing degree um, it just wasn't for me, um, I just thought I'd I'd done everything that I wanted to do in them two years, um, and also the benefit was is it gave me my independence. I'd left home, I'd gone to kick on in life and be my own person in terms of have my own independence, my own flat, my own place at a young age, but I just didn't want to do the studies part.

Howard Moss: 29:32

I just found it the hard bit basically the hard bit, chris, and also I just found it a bit, almost I felt to myself in terms of, you know, I get the fact that if you the hard bit, chris, and also I just found it a bit, almost I felt to myself in terms of, you know, I get the fact that if you want to be a doctor, or a lawyer or an accountant, you really are going to have to, you know, go through your qualifications and your studies to learn your art and learn your skill.

Howard Moss: 29:55

But I just felt, in terms of what I was going to end up doing in life, I didn't feel that staying on for four full years at the poly there was going to necessarily other than put me in a lot of debt, probably. So what did you do then? You left uni and went straight into the business. So I left uni. I was seeing a girlfriend at the time who lived in London and I was interested in retail. I knew I wanted to get involved in something, you know, business related, product related, you know, and and sales related. And I just wanted to get involved in retail.

Howard Moss: 30:34

At the time I liked all the aspects of of what retail stood for and I thought, well, well, you know, where can I go to get the best training in retail? So I thought, pick the best retailer. So there was M&S John Lewis. There was a couple, obviously based in the North, here in Eurastas and Morrisons. So I sent off for a training management you know opportunity at these retailers. And with this girlfriend I was sitting in London. I thought, you know, to get something in London, you know, at a John Lewis or an M&S, would be a great opportunity. So I went for interviews with them all and I got offered, offered the opportunities at john lewis and m&s? Um, so I decided to take the one on baker street, m&s? Um, and I lasted two minutes. I was a fish out of water, um.

Howard Moss: 31:33

So again I came back to leeds um, and before I knew exactly what I wanted to do, um and and get involved in in somewhere where I could see myself having a, you know, a good opportunity, I said to my dad. I said, look, you know, is there anything you've got? You know you work there and that I can help out with? And it can just, you know, tie me over until I really, you know, plot out exactly what I want to do and where I want to go. And so I did do I started helping out on Meanwood Road, there, and it was really, it was just something where I can honestly say, from that moment onwards, In a shed by the way you started out working yeah he's got by this stage he's got.

Howard Moss: 32:18

There's a little warehouse as part of it.

Chris Norton: 32:21

How many people work in there?

Howard Moss: 32:22

there's probably around about all in all. Um, probably about eight people.

Will Ockenden: 32:27

Okay, maybe ten at a push okay at what point did you sort of think I see some potential in this, or did you just kind of naturally go into it and see what happens?

Howard Moss: 32:35

well, this is what I mean. Well, I you from, from the first day of going there. It was just, I can honestly say I never, ever, had a period of of coming away and thinking you know what? You know, what am I doing here? This isn't for me, this is, you know, I just don't, I don't really get it, I don't really see any of it. It was, it was ironic in the way that my father, like I said, was a demonstrator. Things had evolved by the time I'd got there, obviously was he was manufacturing um, you know, a very, very um, labor intensive, you know operation. It was of manufacturing, but he was manufacturing um, and by this stage he'd also got involved in um, I guess a natural progression of demonstration, which was qvc. Oh yeah, so by this stage you've got the live demonstrations on sky um, with what was the qvc channel, um and that's absolutely transferable skills from those kind of um agricultural shows, isn't it?

Howard Moss: 33:40

100, very much so, and and to a certain degree, you're getting free tv exposure, um, for the audience that's watching, because obviously you don't pay for that tv exposure.

Howard Moss: 33:50

It's you're selling your product there and you're advertising it on air, um, however, one of the things that I always found sort of in my, you know, pretty much right from the offset of starting because I did, I started off in the warehouse, I started off making the product, you know, and it was really grassroots and I loved it.

Howard Moss: 34:11

It was, you know, I could see things and I guess you know I would always go up at the end of each day and I'd have a chat to my dad when he was there, if he wasn't out demonstrating or working, you know, and we'd sort of shoot the breeze on various things and I would say things like God, you know, the way we make this product or the way we do this, it's so like time consuming or it's so like you know, I wonder if we can, you know, sort of improve things.

Howard Moss: 34:40

I'm looking at ways of like with double and treble handling, and you know there must be ways of improving it. And then, more importantly, I was looking at sort of we have like a mail order area where, when you bought the product in a, an exhibition, you got like a little form so that if you'd finish using the product before going back to the same agricultural show again you could write, because again in them days there still wasn't the internet, right you could write and you could order the product to be posted out to you. You could get like a Subscription.

Chris Norton: 35:14

Yeah, which is? Now a massively which is now the Amazon click the subscription button.

Will Ockenden: 35:20

Yeah, and you look at things like bamboo toilet paper. I mean, everyone's got the subscription model now, haven't they? Yeah?

Howard Moss: 35:25

So and the amount of people who would attach a little note to the mail order and say bought your product at such and such. It's the most incredible product Absolutely. However, can't get it in my local store, can't get it in this place. I'm absolutely lost without it. Here's my mail order for, and they'll be ordering two, three, four and five units more to be sent out to them with postage and packing, etc.

Howard Moss: 35:52

Good product, that just tells you, and I did. I used to look there and think, god, you know, why isn't it in retail? Why aren't we out there with it? And then, more importantly, I used to look at things like a lot of the time we'd be low on stock or we wouldn't have the availability. So there were so many things that I looked at very, very early on that I thought you know, this has got absolute huge potential but it's not really being tapped into. And I guess I think the main difference between myself and my father is that my father was always at the front end of it. He was out there demonstrating. He was an absolute genius at his profession as a demonstrator and as an entrepreneur, as somebody who could see an opportunity and give a customer a genuine, you know product that they're going to benefit from. You know, he was unique. However, I would say that the great difference between my father and myself is that I was more processed.

Chris Norton: 37:04

Okay.

Howard Moss: 37:05

And I definitely would look at things. I guess you know it wasn't my initial baby and it wasn't my profession to be a demonstrator, let's say so. I was just looking at it more from the scale of you know, why are we out of stock? Why are we um? Why? Why have we got such sort of labor intensive ways of manufacturing um? Why aren't we in retail if people want to have this product? So all of these things are taking shape in my mind and and and that, I guess, was my um, my anchor, really it feels like an apprenticeship yeah, I'm now starting to, you know, push and probe and and say to my you know, we need to get this into manufacturing.

Howard Moss: 37:50

There must be a way of sealing that box quicker, or filling that tub quicker, or or getting the lids put on, rather than you know people just there with a mallet and you know whacking a lid onto a tub and you know how can we improve on that. So I got you know again. I think the best way of me also developing myself and enjoying the opportunity that I had early on in my career is that my father never, ever suffocated or put me off or sort of you know, just dampened my spirits with sort of you know, coming at things. If he felt that what I was pushing at you know had legs, it'd say to him well, you know, go on and do it. You know, come to me with what you believe in and I'll happily back you if we feel that you know it's not something that's going to be, you know, damaging to the business. So things moved on from there and then I guess the next big step is we've developed two or three more products by this stage and we've got our first chemist, which was interesting.

Howard Moss: 39:03

Um and um. Again, I go on about the us um. Where the us was very relevant for us is um. We'd started to place in our packaging um things like um vegan and things like vegan and things like cruelty-free not tested on animals, and we'd seen two or three of the products in the US whilst my father was demonstrating over there that he just brought back because he knew there was nothing similar to it in the UK, and we'd got a chemist at our place place on meanwood to try and develop the same product.

Howard Moss: 39:44

Um, and one of them was this special glass cleaner, and over there they used to have a product called windex, um. That was like this spray and wipe. Um, and we the only product we had in the uk market. It was very much sort of like a mr muscle uhcle. It was Winderlean as well. Yeah, and there was Winderlean as well, but they weren't the same as this product, chris, over in the US. So we cloned a formula and we tried to match it as close as we could to what this US product was and we fast forward. Today, our window and glass cleaner is very much. You know the basis of that product. That was in the US at the time and it's one of our hero trigger sprays and that was our first foray into spray cleaners, chris.

Will Ockenden: 40:38

NPD. Sorry, is there enormous pressure when it comes to NPD? Having started with, you know, with Clin, an amazing product that everyone loves, there's the risk that you're going to dilute the brand. I mean, how do you ensure your NPD is just high quality, you know? Is it just a ton of research or is it intuition?

Howard Moss: 40:53

Yeah, well, I think there's a mix of both, will, I think, going back to the point I made about the, the, um, the, the spray and white the window cleaner that we do today, that was our first foray into sprays. Um, we fast forward today and we manufacture 45 million sprays a year and we're probably the second biggest producer of trigger sprays in the UK. So without having that MPD, we'd have never have got into what is today our number one product, our Mold and Mildew Blaster, kitchen degreasers, bathroom cleaners. So it's a huge part of what we do. Yet it's ironic, to come to Will's point is sometimes your MPD, which is absolutely critical to what we do, because it gives our shoppers and it gives our customers a reason to be extending our presence within their stores, within their groups. We deal in different markets so, culturally, certain products have more relevance in one market than they will do in another.

Chris Norton: 42:11

But the vegan thing, you really, you were the first to do that.

Howard Moss: 42:14

Oh, we, I mean what's relevant today. You look at it like I say, in the US, all those years ago, 40, 50 years ago, that was a thing over there.

Will Ockenden: 42:26

So you, dodd? Had you seen that? That is naturally going to become a trend here.

Howard Moss: 42:33

I mean, again, we just thought you know what, but it's you know, as a market the US was. It was the boom market, it was the marketplace where they tended to, you know, have things that exploded and Europe would cotton on to it you know X amount of years or months or whatever later. So I guess we just put it on our packaging. It was a nice to have. You didn't have to be a vegetarian or a vegan to buy a cleaning product with vegan on there, or you didn't have to be a pet owner to have not tests on animals. These were things that you looked at and you just thought, well, they must care, these guys.

Howard Moss: 43:19

So we were ahead of the curve. We put biodegradable, you know, showing on our products, because all of these things you can't just put on there if your product doesn't stand for it. But we wanted to shout about it and that, I guess, is what astonishes always been you fast forward today is, you know, sustainability is a huge thing. You know, not, test of animals is is a big, big, relevant thing. You know there's probably the vegan market is probably one of the fastest grown sectors in any grocer. Um, so all of these things, uh, like you say we were massively ahead of our time. And isn't it ironic how so many different brands uh, uh, you know wanting to include these, and then get accused of tokenism because they're late to the party.

Howard Moss: 44:12

And we sort of sit there and stay true to. I mean, we are proud of the fact that, you know, we are actually accredited by the Cruelty Free Association and the Vegan Society, accredited by the um, the cruelty free association, and um, the vegan society. So there's, there's a lot of brands out there that might say we don't test on animals, um, we are vegan. Um, however, they're not actually officially endorsed by these accreditations, so we're proud of that no, and also the household goods brand of the year from the grocer.

Howard Moss: 44:47

Oh that, that was a she's an amazing by the way, that that was a, an accolade, chris, that um, you know, uh, we, we thank you guys for um partnering with us on on ensuring that we actually pushed ourselves Um, but you know, to be recognized by um, the leading trade association, um, and such a uh, an incredibly um well recognized by, by the retail platform everywhere where we sell into um.

Howard Moss: 45:33

You know, and I think what astonish has done for so many years now um is. It goes back to what I said right at the beginning, in the way that from the very first day I started at Astonish to what is now, you know, coming up to 30 years, is I've never, ever, had a period where, naturally, I have days where you know you're up against it or you know you've got. You know real challenges and real, you know things to face. However, it's an incredible business and I think the most exciting part of that is our independence and the fact that we massively punch above our weight and we disrupt what would normally be a stranglehold by your multinationals.

Chris Norton: 46:22

So, howard, you do a lot in sponsorship in sport. Do you want tell us a bit about um what you do with Wimbledon?

Howard Moss: 46:28

we do um every single year, the first up until um, about five years I think it's right at the beginning of Covid um, you were never allowed to have any branding at Wimbledon, apart from there was Rolex in the court. It's the only tournament that won't allow any boarding to go around. So if you actually look at Wimbledon, it'll only have the Rolex above the scoreboard. It'll have, like Schlesinger, across the back of the sort of like the green, you know, barriers where the ball, you know, and green, you know, barriers where the bullet, you know. And then you used to have the uh, the drinks cabinet, which was either it used to be robinson's, um, but it's now evian or whatever it is.

Howard Moss: 47:16

Yeah, and then um, in terms of the players, um, there were, they had to wear all white. They couldn't have the crazy colours like you can at the US and French wear, and they could only have the branding of the clothing. So Nike, adidas or whatever. But then five years ago they allowed patching to come in on the players. So Nike are the only brand that won't allow a player. So if a player's signed up to nike, they won't allow any patching to be on that as part of their contract, but any other brand will. So, whether it's castor, whether it's, you know, adidas, whether it's puma, whatever, um, so we got involved in uh, we do 10 matches every year and we'll only pick centre court. That's part of the deal, and we do it with a sports agency. We only pick centre court. Obviously, you don't know what your matches are going to be because obviously there's the. We'll do it up to the quarterfinal and will always pick the opponent of in the first week, the top British players.

Howard Moss: 48:34

Oh right okay, so going back five and four years ago, it was Murray, Everything Murray related, right, and this is what people couldn't work out. They were like I don't get it. Why is Astonish like partnering that? You know that Chilean player from wherever I? Thought I thought it was when I saw you and the female right. So anyway, so last year, obviously, Raducanu.

Chris Norton: 49:00

Yeah.

Howard Moss: 49:00

She's massive news. She's like you know she's Nike Right, you know she's Nike, you're never going to get her Right. And every map Raducanu had, we'd sponsor right, the opponent Right, because in tennis, right, you've just got cameras Right. So, first of all, it's BBC, so there's no adverts. They're honing in on each player 50-50. So it's not like they'll do more of Raducanu. They're honing in on each player 50-50. So it's not like they'll do more of Radicando. They're honing in. And then, obviously, when it goes to the break, you've got two players just sat down there and the camera's just on both of them, and it's hours and hours. Sometimes it's hours and hours, isn't it? And so five years ago we did Murray and three matches went to five sets all night and we had the opponent on there.

Chris Norton: 49:45

Now did you go to every game?

Howard Moss: 49:47

No, we get the opposite I did do this year. I went to two, but we've just been fortunate, we've cherry picked right. So we had a New Zealand girl this year who was beating Raducanu. She then went on to and she had it slapped right in front of her there, astonished, so all eyeballs were on it and the amount of media cover, and I wouldn't mind if I said to you what it costs, how much ink it costs to be per match.

Will Ockenden: 50:15

A hundred grand, 200 grand.

Howard Moss: 50:17

So, if I told you, it works out to be roughly around about 6,000 per match. So it's unbelievable media coverage Per match. So it's unbelievable media coverage, mind-blowing.

Will Ockenden: 50:31

This feels like you doing things not. You know, you're looking at what everyone else would do. No, we're not going to do that. We're going to do something a bit cleverer, a bit different. Does that underpin everything you do, that kind of disruptive?

Howard Moss: 50:42

It does and also what we and again we can chat it on. You know, in the on the podcast it's we're just unconventional and I think, without you know saying it, we're just. You know we don't actually waste our time analysing the shit out of something, because before you know it I can't tell you the amount. Chris obviously knows we use and I always have done, we use two agencies for all our design work. We I used to use a company in London called spring it and who now, sadly, and the the original owner. They got very poorly and it was just never the same again after he'd left.

Howard Moss: 51:32

And then over the last sort of eight and a half, nine years, I used Born Ugly and whilst they try and get involved in other things, born Ugly and I always say to them stick to what you know as designers, which was formerly previously Elmwood. They stick to what you know as designers, which was formerly previously Elmwood. They're brilliant at what they do. Yeah, they're a great outfit, aren't they? You know, in design work they're phenomenal and they charge for it, but they are phenomenal. And the amount of times Elmwood and now Born Ugly will tell me and now born ugly will tell me that they'll have corporate X or huge equity company Y who they can spend four 500 grand on covering a huge 12 month brief with them on this thing, that, and then, lo and behold, it will go to some office in europe or there we're canning that. Now forget it and it's. This is what you're up against, whereas with astonish, what we'll do is we won't analyze it whether, if we say we're going to have a go at something, we'll do it.

Will Ockenden: 52:40

We'd never be reckless, I love this idea that you, you don't over complicate things and you're quite intuitive in terms of how you approach stuff. You, you don't over complicate things and you're quite intuitive in terms of how you approach stuff and you don't over analyze the data and things like that. Is that fair to say?

Howard Moss: 52:52

we absolutely don't. If we're going to have you know we've got a tv campaign going at the moment and you know your blue chips, your corporates, would be they'd probably be so forensic over what it's delivering in and we need to understand this. You know, with Astonish, don't get me wrong. We're a results business like anybody. But thank God we must be doing something right because the results year on year are absolutely outstanding and I think part of it is we absolutely don't get it right every time, but I've got a very simple rule that if I get 8 out of 10 right, then we'll be doing okay. So if I get 2 out of 10 wrong, I'll never be reckless. I'll never be, you know, to the point of putting the business in jeopardy or anything like that. We'll dust ourselves down and we'll move on.

Howard Moss: 53:47

You know we've recently had to write off, I think, €30,000 of packaging on a specific project that won't have. We might have washed our hands and broken even on it. However, we spent time on it and there was investment on it. It was one particular bulk pack that we did for a specific customer and I don't mind saying who it was Costco, um and it just didn't work out. It didn't hit the threshold that was needed to remain um in their business ongoing. But I put my hand up and and had to forward purchase um about a year's worth based on a forecast um a year's worth of packaging and that sadly, after three months it was pulled out um.

Howard Moss: 54:39

But that's that's business, that's having a go, that's backing your um. You know your gut, your instincts on and I think that that's that's key. I think you have to go your instinct on and I think that's key. I think you have to go with your instinct and you have to go with your gut. And I'm not being arrogant here, but it doesn't happen by accident these things. You must have a skill and an art at being able to deliver what customers want and you've got to have a good product as well, which is what you've got.

Chris Norton: 55:09

You know, if you've got a really great product, then it's going to do. Your product will sell, which is what your dad saw. It's what you keep seeing. You keep spotting products and and and diversifying, which is, like you said, 45 million sprays yeah, and give us an idea of the size and scale then.

Will Ockenden: 55:25

I mean, you mentioned the 45 million sprays, and I'm picturing this. You know, eight people in a shed in meanwood. Fast forward 50 years later. Give us, give our listeners, an idea of the size and scale of the business now then well, it's interesting because it probably isn't in terms of the, the, the scale of personnel.

Howard Moss: 55:43

It probably isn't um what most people people would believe it to be, and I think the key to that is Will is that if you're manufacturing at FMCG, you have to massively invest in the absolute Rolls Royce of the kit, and that's something that has been a key. I went back to the beginning when I first started working. It was something that was key to me to to understand how do we make this right better? How are we going to improve on packing this, get it out quicker? Understanding man and I guess the great thing for me is what I've afforded myself now is is um, the opportunity through um, the performance of the business is to invest in the absolute, the best of the best kit. So, um, you know we have a, a fully automated, state-of-the-art site that we moved to um. We put our hand up and started investing in right at the beginning of COVID and we moved into three years ago. That has probably been invested into the tune of in excess of 30 million, which we invested and is fully paid for. There's zero debt on that.

Howard Moss: 57:03

We're so proud of the fact that we've got a site that manufactures, I believe, on average I think the numbers are somewhere in between across the whole production lines, somewhere in the region of about 600,000 units a day from this single site. And in terms of personnel, from top to bottom, including May, the lovely lady who comes in and cleans our offices every evening, we have, I think, 102 people. So we are a lean business, but we're very proud of those people because they're longstanding. We're developing some brilliant young people as well, who we've sponsored along the way to do um certain degree courses, um, alongside their work, um, you know, and the business will always, you know, bring in key people as we develop and grow, but, um, as a manufacturer, you have to be lean so you mentioned risk taking, which I love, and I love the fact that you know you are now a business of a certain size and scale, yet you continue to have this kind of entrepreneurial risk-taking attitude.

Will Ockenden: 58:16

Yeah, um, you mentioned the packaging kind of mistake you made. This show is about mistakes and marketing fuck-ups and and business mistakes. Yeah, can you think of any other mistakes along the way? Shall we say that have kind of defined what the business is now, or indeed that you've learned from?

Howard Moss: 58:35

Yeah, I think you make a number of mistakes, that I think that word hindsight is a great word. Will that if you knew then what you know now is a great word. Will that if you knew then what you know now? It can be a culmination of how you position your product. So sometimes we've positioned our product in a certain way that could be.

Howard Moss: 59:01

The price point could be effectively too low and I think in retail it's a lot easier to come down in price than it is to go up in price. So once you've set a precedence on um, where your price is on a certain product, um, if we need to um increase or or put that price up for reasons that either we've got challenges of our own in terms of raw materials, packaging, um, the retailer needs to earn a better margin on the products, etc. Um. That becomes a challenge when we've set the price point um too low from the get-go um. So we've had a couple of instances over the years where I look back and think do you know what would have had a huge opportunity there if we'd have put the price point um more realistic towards um? But we, we, we got a little bit too, and I think this is again, um, something that I have to accept and we have to accept as a business that, um, sometimes we can be a little bit, you know, too gung-ho and too impetuous maybe, and then reflect on it after and think do you know what actually, if we'd have? Just. But that's just the nature of how we are as a business. So we've got to accept that we're going to hit a few sticky wickets along the way.

Howard Moss: 1:00:24

I think, again, we've launched, as I said before, certain products that just haven't worked out. Um, but I think the biggest thing from my perspective is is that, um, if we were too proud, or I was too, um, you know, pig-headed to think to myself that, um, I'm not going to accept that that was the wrong thing, um, I'm not going to accept that that was the wrong thing to do, or I'm not going to accept that that product isn't right for us and I'm just going to keep pushing and pushing and pushing something that is costing the business even more um to try and, you know, improve on its situation, then that's going to actually um have an even bigger impact. So I think the best thing for me and what I've, you know, certainly allowed myself to learn along the way. And accept along the way is that if something's not working, just you know, accept it for what it is and move on quickly.

Will Ockenden: 1:01:25

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for knowing when to quit isn't there, and actually that's no bad thing at all not at all.

Chris Norton: 1:01:31

well, thanks for coming on the show, howard. If people want to get hold of you, how's the best way to to find you other than just googling astonishcouk?

Will Ockenden: 1:01:39

and do you want people to get in touch with you?

Howard Moss: 1:01:41

I was about to say. You don't mean me personally, do you, chris? Chris, no, astonished.

Chris Norton: 1:01:47

Often people wanting people to connect to them on LinkedIn.

Howard Moss: 1:01:51

Yeah, I mean, I'm a bit of a technophobe, to be honest, chris. So it's ironic that one of the first topics that you touched on at the beginning of this was the fact that the digital platforms and how influencing clean influencers are such a big part of our business today, engaging and it's ironic that I don't have a Facebook page, I don't have an Instagram page and I'm not on LinkedIn. But but right, you know, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that I'm not a people's person or I'm not a person that's willing to, you know, engage, send your telegram to. I work every day, chris. I'm in the office every day, bar the few holidays that I take, so I'm always there. People will you know, they can happily reach out to the office and, yeah, you know, I'm constantly involved with everything that we do, so I'm more than happy to support, you know, other industries or businesses that want to connect with, astonish and understand, you know, whether there's an opportunity or something we can do together.

Chris Norton: 1:03:00

Well, thanks for sharing your story, because it's been fascinating. I think the listeners are going to enjoy it as well. So, yeah, thanks for coming in.

Howard Moss: 1:03:06

Thank you very much, cheers, mate, cheers.