Chris Norton: 0:00

Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the podcast that helps you grow your brand and develop quicker, all by learning from the unfortunate mistakes from the world's top marketers. I'm Chris Norton and my mission is to help you, the senior marketer, learn their lessons so you can build a thriving brand. Today, Violent joins us to talk about the biggest mistakes brands make on YouTube, why most marketers completely misjudge how YouTube actually works works and how even successful creators struggle to monetize their content effectively. If you've ever wondered why your YouTube videos aren't getting views or why your content isn't converting into sales, this episode is packed with insights that you'll need. Bellot will break down how to create engaging videos, why most brands fail at YouTube marketing and the hidden traps of short form versus long form content. So, as always, sit back, relax and let's hear how you can stop wasting time on YouTube and start making it work for your brand.

Will Ockenden: 0:58

Enjoy.

Chris Norton: 1:00

Balan Kishtot. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so before we get into this now, we need to explain to listeners you openly say you're not a marketer, right?

Balint: 1:14

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is a little bit like walking into sort of the lion's den in this situation, admitting all my faults.

Chris Norton: 1:21

You don't need to worry about your faults because you've got deep knowledge in a particular area. So you run a company called voxter. Is that correct? Pronounced that right? Yes, so do you want to tell the listeners what you do? Yeah, because I think that puts of interest to them yeah, definitely so.

Balint: 1:37

We are, uh what I say sort of as a content creator agency, um, although we sort of expanded, expanded beyond that, uh, sort of recently.

Balint: 1:45

So we work with digital content creators, um, youtubers, live streamers, that kind of thing, but also a lot of athletes who want to get into the digital media space, and we help them with sort of content creation, uh, whether that is long form video, short form video, podcasts, all all the good stuff really, um, I guess, sort of traditionally we've come from sort of the video game space, so we work a lot with professional video game players which might be a unique concept to some people as well as sort of more traditional long-form video gaming content, and a lot of our client base are people who have seen some level of success and then basically hit a glass ceiling because it's it's quite a self-made industry in a lot of ways and you sort of reach a pinnacle on your own and you're not necessarily sure how to sort of get beyond that.

Balint: 2:35

And that's kind of where we've tried to sort of come in and help people sort of build teams around them, build more sustainable practices than maybe they've necessarily been doing up until that point so we're talking about um, I mean just to get the terminal terminology right here are we talking about influencers youtube influencers, so people that are influential on youtube, and you will help them.

Will Ockenden: 2:54

Help them create engaging, interesting content yeah, absolutely.

Balint: 2:58

Yeah, I think the term influence as well as one that they tend to detest internally, so a lot of them think of them. They have a dirty word. Yeah, exactly, exactly, I mean influencers. They tend to thinkest internally, so a lot of them, think of them.

Will Ockenden: 3:05

They have a dirty word.

Balint: 3:05

Yeah, exactly, exactly they tend to think of themselves. As you know, I think the yeah content creators is probably the colloquial term they would use. That's what youtube calls them, isn't it?

Chris Norton: 3:14

content creators and what's the um?

Will Ockenden: 3:17

what's the state of youtube as a channel, um, in terms of content creation? I mean, I think, anecdotally, last few few years everybody's been looking at TikTok and Instagram. You know, is YouTube kind of having a bit of a resurgence in terms of content creators focusing on that channel.

Balint: 3:33

I don't think it's ever really gone away. I think the other things were just the new hot, sexy thing you know in the moment they were never. But sort of YouTube's sort's year-on-year growth has never really slowed down. It takes the best features from TikTok and things like that and builds them into short form. But if you look from a creative perspective, youtube has always been the best platform in terms of monetization, in terms of reach, in terms of those kind of things. So it was always seen as a very A-list level program and product, a-list level sort of program and product.

Balint: 4:03

The most interesting thing actually, the report came out, I think, late last year, so only a couple of months ago where TV in America now has outstripped as the main platform that people watch on. So YouTube got all this data about what are you watching on your computer, what are you watching on your phone, and the main platform now in America is TV. You've seen this trend globally as well, but the amount of viewership that's happening on TV is just sort of a massive upward trend. So I think that's going to be the biggest shift in YouTube.

Will Ockenden: 4:35

Just to clarify people watching YouTube on their smart TVs yes exactly so full screening it, watching it like not you would.

Balint: 4:41

you know, traditional linear program and watching YouTube. And that is now the majority viewership in America of YouTube and is sort of seeing an increase everywhere globally.

Will Ockenden: 4:52

And how does YouTube compare with traditional TV broadcast channels then?

Balint: 4:59

Have you got any kind of numbers on that?

Will Ockenden: 5:00

No, I don't? Just to put you on the spot. Yeah, no, I don't. No, I don't Just to put you on the spot.

Balint: 5:03

Yeah, no, I don't. I think what's interesting is a lot of linear TV channels are going in the direction of YouTube, or maybe not even necessarily whole channels with specific shows. So one that sort of pops to my mind is Taskmaster, which is obviously Channel 4 program, but if you're outside the UK, the entire back catalogue is available on YouTube. So if you're in the UK, the entire back catalogue is available on YouTube. So if you're in the UK, you're obviously watching it on the Channel 4 app. But anywhere else, globally the whole of the UK but they've got multiple other New Zealand, australia, all these other shows the full programme is available on YouTube because they're like well, you're not going to get this natively, so we might as well serve it to you where you are.

Will Ockenden: 5:43

Interesting. And what's the kind of trajectory of YouTube users like? I mean? Surely it must be reaching saturation points at some stage fairly soon.

Balint: 5:55

Well, I think this is the thing where, because the use case is changing and the platform viewership is changing so heavily, the viewership base is sort of shifting and you're getting all of these uh interesting growths, uh, which people may not necessarily predicted. Um, one, one big area of growth, I'd say, especially during lockdown, which sort of you know uh, especially during lockdown, which sort of put it into hyperspeed, uh was uh programming. So there's a YouTuber who I always sort of like to talk about. She's called Miss Rachel and I think she was a speech and language therapist. I don't want to misquote her job before, but she started to make language learning content for toddlers during the pandemic because obviously most nurseries were closed and everyone was stuck at home. And you know she's and again, this is, I'd say, very traditional TV viewership content you know her parents would put it on their big TV, they'd watch it with their toddler and she's getting 70 plus million views a video to this day.

Balint: 6:58

So this is a huge audience which you wouldn't traditionally think about. I mean'm sure you know some of your listeners, or you know viewers have children. They'll probably come across her. But, like you, there's these massive niches that if you're not looking for it, you're never going to find and that's just insane numbers.

Will Ockenden: 7:12

I mean, you look, you look at um linear tv and yeah, something like eastenders, yeah, or whatever. I mean that, what's that? Three, four million exactly? You know viewers, but you know it's multiple, multiple times. Yeah, isn't it?

Balint: 7:26

no, absolutely um, and I think that's where you, you know, where people get sort of slightly obsessed with the sort of buzzwords. You know, maybe the sidemans, mr beast of the world, because they're the flashiest, um, but they are what I would sort of think of as very traditional entertainment products, uh, or entertainment content creators. There's a lot of people there who are creating some kind of factual based entertainment, whether it's for children, whether it's for adults, which have huge viewing audience, ships but aren't, maybe aren't quite as sexy, um, and you know, therefore, they don't get covered as much in sort of traditional news but balance.

Chris Norton: 8:00

So I I've got a question. There's people out here that have all got youtube channels right. There'll be, there'll be the hundreds of listeners listening to this, thinking, well, I've got a YouTube channel, I look at my video, right. So we're from PR and content marketing backgrounds and when we're doing a video, we'll look at the video, come up with an idea for a video, write the description, hopefully, make it something that's catchy with a hook of some description, right, and you know, these days you could use even ai to double check and make it seo friendly. That all means that it will be search friendly and somebody will find it.

Chris Norton: 8:35

Then, um, you put your little um video together, post it on your youtube channel and, wham bam, in 30 days you've got 47 views, yeah, three of which are you. Yeah, so what, how, how can what, what can you bring to the party for p? What, what do? What do you advise your clients to do to stop it just becoming like one video and it, just it dies a death. And then I think, after four or five, people get a bit, a bit like what's the word? Like you know, disenthused. I can't think of the word.

Chris Norton: 9:06

They're like oh, I've tried that it doesn't work, I'll just put it on YouTube so they don't put the effort in Does that make sense?

Balint: 9:11

No, absolutely. I think there's a lot. I think there's two groups of people that are potentially worth considering the largest group of people, I think, who make a couple of videos and then stop. I think for most people, almost all big YouTubers didn't get into it consciously thinking they were going to become YouTubers. They were trying to tell a story, tell some content.

Balint: 9:31

They were slightly obsessed with the medium and they would do it even if no one was watching, and they kind of had to do that for 100, 150 plus videos, sort of build that catalog, to build that knowledge, to build that gut instinct about what they think was going to work to a degree. Now you can approach it, obviously, from a much more sort of scientific sort of you know, completely fair focus on SEO, completely focus on what you know, what the algorithm is liking at the moment. But I would say that's not the traditional pathway of most YouTubers. So I think there is some statistic I'm going to I'm'm not gonna get this accurately off the top of my head, but there's something like most youtube channels have less than like something like 99 of channels that I've ever uploaded have less than five videos uploaded people just give up um, so to you know the.

Will Ockenden: 10:20

That's interesting, isn't it? So it's like podcasting to actually be in the upper percentile doesn't actually require that much effort. No.

Balint: 10:29

And then I guess you've got to look at why are you doing it as well? I think a lot of people look at YouTube and content creation as the end game, whereas I think for a lot of people it can be a very meaningful addition to what else they're doing. So you know a lot of people. There's been a very big growth in sort of doctors, psychologists, architects, all sort of making videos and, yes, part of that might be like, you know, marketing funnel for their businesses. But a lot of times it's because they are, you know, they got into those businesses because they had a very strong passion for them and this is another outlet for that passion and if it monetizes and grows, great, amazing, and it can be just another sort of arrow in their quiver.

Balint: 11:15

But it isn't the be-all end-all. I think once I mean, probably from a marketing perspective you don't want to have all your eggs in one basket and I think that's from a YouTuber's perspective, that you know. Probably from a marketing perspective, you don't want to have all your eggs in one basket and I think that's from a YouTuber's perspective. That can be what is the most daunting aspect of the work is you are completely beholden to one income source on a platform which you don't really control. You know, there's this massive uproar at the moment about YouTubers' slightly tweaked monetization and all creators are up in arms. You panicking about it.

Balint: 11:48

Essentially, um, because it's not something that they control. They don't. They don't get to determine how google places their ads. They don't get to determine the value of those ads, um, you know they have. You are building on someone else's, you know, on rented ground. Essentially, um, and I think that can be the hidden. You know, maybe, what people don't necessarily consider when they look at, like you know, look at the business from the outside and think it's all sort of roses.

Chris Norton: 12:13

A good example of that, though, is TikTok, isn't it? Look at what you know. The previous American presidency were about to get rid of TikTok entirely. I saw a lot of content creators in our space talking about oh my God, I've built my career off the back of TikTok and it's going to be banned from the US. What the hell am I going to do? But then, luckily, donald Trump removed the ban on it and it came back in again. I couldn't see how they could just get rid of it. A whole, entire platform.

Balint: 12:43

And TikTok is the worst offender as well, where all of these platforms you have subscribers. That is essentially, in this day and age, a vanity metric, the number of subscribers you have, because all these platforms they don't serve all your content to your subscribers. They'll serve the content to who they think is going to be the best match and to different levels. So, but TikTok was the worst for this. So that basically means you actually have no like. If you're purely relying on that platform, you have no relationship with your community or your viewers because you do not control that relationship in the slightest. Tiktok controls whether people see your content or not, controls whether people see your content or not, and I think that's a big thing which people on TikTok were panicking about, because they're like the platform's coming down. They don't actually have any way to talk to their viewers apart from what TikTok lets them. So they were going to lose their livelihood overnight because it hadn't built any actual community. Essentially, that was within their control.

Will Ockenden: 13:45

So I'm taking a bit of a step back. Then There'll be lots of brands listening to this and lots of individuals listening to this, thinking I can't possibly do 150 videos before I figure out what I'm doing. You're really close to this, you'll have seen, and I don't want to make it too scientific. But where should brands start, really, if they want to be better content creators on YouTube? Talk us through the stages. What niches should they be in? How should they present themselves? What kind of lengths are we looking at for the content?

Balint: 14:18

Yeah, I think the initial consideration is what is the end goal of your content? So is it about? Are you using your content as a marketing funnel for your business or are you trying to create an organic community and viewership base? Because I think those are two different approaches. So just on the very initially, on the organic viewership side, there's traditionally how most top-level creators will think about videos is they will think about the hook and the thumbnail and then the video title, before they even think anything beyond that. So what is the hook of this video? What is going to engage the viewers within the first 10 seconds? How does that hook get turned into a engaging youtube title and how do I represent that visually well in a thumbnail? If they can't do all three of those well, they'll move on from that idea before you get any into form of scripting or thinking about like shooting content, anything like that. You'll have a bank of these ideas. Um, that's.

Will Ockenden: 15:23

And so how to? How to cap? I mean they say on tiktok, captivate in the first six seconds so it's the same here, just captivate your audience immediately yeah, no, definitely um, and you know that can be.

Balint: 15:35

You know there are very long form um pieces of content that I watch and a lot of people watch online. You know two, three hour sort of video essays, uh, but they will still have an overarching hook of what they're trying to explain.

Will Ockenden: 15:48

So give us an example of that.

Balint: 15:49

There was an incredibly good video about cryptocurrency, which I think was called the Line Always Goes Down, which was posted maybe three, four years ago but has, I think, over 100 million views by now. I forget the creator's name. He's very famous for making these very long-form, complex videos but it was very much about how the internal hook of that video was essentially cryptocurrency is a scam. You are being played. This is about the rich fighting the rich. Here's a beautiful thumbnail that illustrates that. Here's a beautiful title that illustrates that, and I think that spoke to a very wide, large, potential audience.

Will Ockenden: 16:25

And that's where, as brands, we should start then thinking in terms of what is our hook, what's our thumbnail?

Balint: 16:29

Well, so that's for organic content, because for organic content, what you're trying to do is you're trying to reach the biggest possible potential audience. So again, I'd say, even before that, think about what is the potential audience size of the content, of the hook that you're sort of describing and the content you're trying to make. Um, if you are thinking about it as a marketing funnel for your content, you know there's a lot of times where natural, organic video content isn't going to be the best way to achieve that. Um, you can create much more engaging content that you run through you know YouTube, adsense or TikTok.

Balint: 17:05

You know I think it's TikTok ads has the craziest level of TikTok ad service has the craziest level of customizability. You can go super, super local. You're saying I want to hit this street and I want to hit women between the age of 35 to 40 who don't have a job. Like the amount of user data that they have. That allows you to do local targeting is incredibly powerful and I think looking at those features should also then help you. Obviously, in your sort of funnel content, it's very much coming back to what is the audience you're trying to serve.

Will Ockenden: 18:10

So back to the marketing, because again there'll be people listening to this thinking, yeah, I can see the use case for organic, but really it's the marketing funnel yes absolutely. How do we determine the topics we talk about? Is it a case of looking at the top questions asked to our customer service team? How do we kind of go about that?

Balint: 18:27

Yeah, I think each company should have a gut instinct about what their users are interested in. What problem are they trying to solve for their users or for their clients, and trying to make very high-level-based content that answers those problems. You know from this is this is looking at organic content, but it's potentially a good example there's been a very good, very large growth in psychology-based content things around anxiety, adhd and things like this because a lot of people have those. So it's a lot of people with ADHD who are searching for how do I cope with my ADHD, and I'm an 18-year-old and there'll be psychologists who've made content specifically for them answering that question. So it's again taking that back from a marketing paid perspective, like what questions are your customers asking of you or of your industry that you can answer in clear, concise ways?

Chris Norton: 19:23

um, and make uh, you know clickable content okay, now yeah, and it's coming up with the ideas for the for the show, like coming up with the idea for the video because, um, yeah, we sort of reverse engineer that we'll like, we we'll have an idea for a show. For instance, like on today's podcast, we'll have an overarching theme for today's podcast, which is you know, talking about youtube and its dominance and how it's not gone away. That's sort of the overarching theme, um, but then we come up with a title later, after the chat.

Will Ockenden: 19:57

Yeah.

Chris Norton: 19:57

So it's kind of difficult. It's kind of a different way of storytelling, isn't it?

Balint: 20:00

Absolutely.

Chris Norton: 20:02

The title first and the and the graphic is quite an interesting way of working.

Balint: 20:11

Yeah, I think it probably feels quite alien if you come from a traditional content or marketing background, because you are almost trying to reverse engineer the story, but you are still trying to find that nugget of interest within that story and that's where you start and this is partially why I think you make the 100 videos.

Balint: 20:32

But you are still trying to find that nugget of interest within that story and that's where you start. This is partially why I think you make the 100 videos, 150 videos. You develop that gut instinct of what you know will work for your audience. So if you look at some of the biggest YouTubers, they'll have this database content and they'll just give it based off their own gut instinct. They'll go okay, I think this is a five-star video or a three-star video, and a lot of times they'll be correct, so they'll have quite a good natural feeling for it. Because a lot of people talk about the YouTube algorithm as maybe a bit, and all these platforms have algorithms, right as like some black box mystery man behind the curtain. But I think a lot on a fundamental level it's about who what is. Who is your audience? What is the piece of content that's going to most engage that audience?

Will Ockenden: 21:16

And is there a danger of? I mean, I think I think some people would naturally approach this overly scientifically. Yeah, and they'll kind of, you know, they'll do all the search, search um, the seo research and all this stuff.

Balint: 21:28

it sounds like intuition plays a big role as well, just understanding what motivates your audience and creating content for them yeah, I guess there's some people who, like you, know there are scientific ways to find out what motivates your customer base. You know there's a lot of research that people do a lot of. You know different questionnaires or you know other research tools that people do to. You know find answers to those. Um, I think it's when you are thinking that's for your customers. I think then you have to sort of there is a good instinct element, okay, like, how do I make that as wide a group as possible and what is the widest interest view of that uh question as possible? Um, and then sort of looking at it from that perspective, but, like you can definitely approach it from a scientific point, I I think the science for me comes in a lot of times.

Balint: 22:11

Once you've made the piece of content so you want to, once you've got that backlog of content, you can go look at that. And you can go look at, like, okay, what is my click-through rate on these videos? What is my average view duration? Where are the viewers dropping off, where are they losing interest? And that's where you can make a lot of, I would say, sort of editorial choices moving forward which are based on hard data. I think trying to do that before you know from scratch, if you've never done it before, if you've never made video content before, is incredibly difficult.

Chris Norton: 22:50

But, balan, there's a number of tools out there, um, from youtube buddy, good, iq, there's like three or four different tools out there. So for small businesses you're listening to this or small, you know, head of marketing in a small business, yeah, he might be using youtube buddy or one of the one of the smaller things to optimize their content because they've got an algorithm that. What do you think of them?

Balint: 23:11

no, I mean, I think you used the right word there. They optimize so they make your existing bit of content the best it can possibly be. Now, if your content isn't very good to begin with you're not, you know you're polishing something unsavory.

Balint: 23:25

Um, polishing a turd, yeah exactly, you can't roll it in glitter, yeah but I think a lot of those times those tools will sell you the vision that they are the answer on how to make good content. And they are definitely good prompts and things like that and, like I said, they can optimise your videos. Make sure you've got all the tagging done correctly and all the metadata. And they are definitely good prompts and things like that and, like I said, they can optimize your videos. Make sure you've got all the tagging done correctly and all the metadata fun stuff that most people want to not think about but it isn't going to help solve you the initial concept of what kind of content is my audience looking for. What kind of content will resonate with them?

Balint: 24:09

No, that was actually. I have a friend who an unnamed source, shall we say who was a developer for one of those platforms, and they said that they developed tools that the customers asked for but they themselves knew wouldn't help them improve their content. But the customers believed that they would. And actually, when they developed tools that't help them improve their content, but the customers believed that they would and actually, when they developed tools that would help them improve their content, they weren't used. So again, I think there's a misconception from a lot of people who use these kind of tools about how they'll actually help you.

Will Ockenden: 24:46

You're talking about. A couple of times. You've kind of talked about sectors of content creators and there seems to be a thread that a lot of the people you're talking about are kind of education focused content creators and I think anecdotally chris and I have discussed this that there seems to be an awful lot of kind of education focused content on youtube. Is that, is that fair to say? Is that trend you're seeing?

Balint: 25:09

yeah, absolutely so, I so yeah, there's a few sort of potential niches where there's sort of the pure entertainment content creators, where they are very much sort of like traditional sort of linear TV. They are creating something purely for the viewing. You know the viewing pleasure, you know the Sidemans of the world, the Mr Beast, that kind of thing, and I think a lot of people understand that instinctively, whereas I think there is definitely this more interesting also niche underneath it of factual content creators. So whether that can be education, but factual, can go quite wide. So there's a you know hundreds of people have cooking shows now. Um, on youtube, you know there's, but like architects, nurses, whatever the niche might be, uh, from from life sciences to health to.

Balint: 26:08

There's a really good content creator. She's called Cleo Abrams and she will just pick a random topic and the entire channel is called Huge, if True. So she just takes some random, almost sensational bit of news and just really deep dives into it. So I think there's a lot of people who don't necessarily expect that level of factual exploration to be available on YouTube, whereas in fact that's the kind of content that most people want to consume.

Balint: 26:42

Factual content as well, from a content creator's perspective I think is more interesting, because if you are purely an entertainment-based content creator, you are tied to the size of your potential audience as being the biggest factor, whereas if you are a factual content creator, you have some underlying skill set that has value and is much easier to create something else out of as well. So, for example, if you know one of the sidemen or a big, big youtuber like that, you can write a memoir about your life. But if you are a psychologist youtuber, you can write a book about cbt, because you have that underlying skill set and underlying knowledge that might interest people, and now you are now attaching an existing audience to that I mean.

Will Ockenden: 27:32

An example of that is um we we work with a bed client and we're looking for um chiropractic influencers and I went down a youtube rabbit hole, as you do, and there's a huge online community of chiropractors cracking people's backs, yeah, yeah, and some of them have got million. You know, there's some american ones with very big, 10 million views per video for chiropractory, because it's it's kind of asmr, quite satisfying cracking yeah, hearing someone's yeah back.

Will Ockenden: 28:00

Yeah, absolutely make unnatural noises so how niche should is is the more niche the better, because even very, very niche there's potentially huge audiences, isn't there?

Balint: 28:09

Yeah, I think so, and also, if you look at it so, I think there's a few ways to look at it. So the more niche the audience, I'd say, the more stronger cohesive community you can build and the more value you can give to your viewers as well. So I think there's a large element there from a content creator perspective, from a monetary perspective as well, if you want to just look at it like that. The highest value so when you are paid as a content creator, you get paid CPM. It's cost per mille, so cost per thousand views is what you get from YouTube, and that is determined by who your audience are. And who your audience is is very much determined by what type of content you're making.

Balint: 28:51

So, for example, the highest paying niche are financial advice YouTubers and they're getting something like $60 to $80 CPMs, whereas you know, if you're in the gaming space, that can be lower, sort of $3 to $5. So there's this huge range Because they're all the well. You know, if you're in the gaming space, that can be lower, sort of $3 to $5. So there's a huge range Because they're all the well. For one, their audience tends to be older, more you know, more wealthy or more engaged in the actual content as well, fascinating.

Will Ockenden: 29:20

So financial services, the top paying niche, yes.

Chris Norton: 29:22

What are?

Will Ockenden: 29:23

the niches. If people are listening to this, thinking right, I want to make a few quid on YouTube.

Chris Norton: 29:27

We right, I want to make a few quid on youtube, thinking about yeah I know a financial.

Will Ockenden: 29:31

Yeah, let's have a top five so top five.

Balint: 29:34

Um, I think any uh health sciences based one, so medical, as long as you're not demonetized, you have to be a bit careful about how you're creating your content, because uh, that can sort of be pulled down. News does quite uh well these days. Um, I think uh food as well. So uh, food and nutrition um architecture.

Will Ockenden: 29:56

So that's another big one how does the youtube attribute um value to these? Why is architecture more valuable than you know?

Balint: 30:05

uh, chiropractory, it's just, it's who your viewers are. So if you are, let's say. If you are sorry when it'll be done.

Chris Norton: 30:13

It'll be done on google adwords, so it'll be done on, because obviously google on youtube, and so it'll be done on a. It'll be done on a bidding, bidding thing, right, people will bid to be part in that community and if, obviously, if it's gaming it's there'll be, it'll be the. It depends on how competitive a certain area is and you're bidding on a certain viewer base.

Balint: 30:31

So if you are bidding on who's watching architecture YouTube videos, they tend to be western, from developed economies. They'll be interested potentially probably in some either house remodeling or large scale DIY there's potential spending power, exactly the potential spending power of your viewers. Um, and yeah, they're. You know the demographics associated with that, which pretty much determines it. Um, because, again, these viewers are actively seeking out that content, so it means that they are, they're, interested in that. What else does that mean? How does that reflect on them as a human?

Chris Norton: 31:08

yeah, because if you say you, if you do do some sort of YouTube ads which we've done on our podcast channel before I remember when we first ever started doing them you'd set all the parameters and it'd still end up somebody watching Peppa Pig would still end up watching one of your little 30-second clips, which is a little bit annoying. That you know you've wasted that money, really, don't you?

Balint: 31:27

Yeah, and I think there's probably a slightly different. I'm not too familiar with the actual back end on the Google Ad Service side, but I'm sure there's a difference between when you are boosting an existing video and you are placing video content as ads on other people's. So when you are placing video content as ads, I think that goes through the Google AdWords sort of setting services, so the same way that they place that on Google Search or anywhere like that. It's that level of niche sort of clarity you're getting.

Will Ockenden: 32:00

And I want to talk about kind of video length. So obviously, how does YouTube I mean anecdotally again, people talk about YouTube as being a much longer form platform than other channels how does kind of optimum, how long can we go with the YouTube video, particularly in comparison to some of those other video platforms like TikTok?

Balint: 32:22

Again. So I guess to just separate again sort of organic versus maybe funnel content. So if you're looking at maximizing revenue from the video itself, you want it to be minimum eight minutes length, because anything shorter than eight minutes they're called mid-rolls. So there are basically a few types of ways that YouTube or Google will monetize your video. So one is that pre-roll so everyone loves these when you're getting the five, 10 second unskippable ads before the video even starts, anything that comes during the video again that style that's called a mid-roll. And then there are end rolls and little pop-ups and things like that. If your video is less than eight minutes long you are physically unable to place mid-rolls. So obviously that has a massive impact on your earnings potential. But outside of that it's mainly about it's not the length of the content. So when we look at YouTube video, you have, let's say, 10,000 views on that YouTube video. You don't actually have 10,000 views for the whole length of the video you will have. All those viewers will have an average view duration. So if you make an hour-long video but all your viewers are, you know, turning off by 10 minutes, they're not going to see the ads in the rest of the time. So you're not going to make money from the ads in the rest of the time, all you're doing is making money off the first 10 minutes. So it's realistically about what style of content are you making and what length can you hold the viewer's interest with that piece of content? And you know, like I'm saying, some people are making these huge documentary videos which are three, four hours long, these huge documentary videos which are three, four hours long. One sort of popular theme at the moment is you'll take, you'll do a normal video, which I'd say most videos on average are sort of between maybe 10 to 15 minutes, and you'll have an ongoing series of these 10 to 15 minute videos and at the end of the year you'll upload a marathon episode which is like they're just stitched together. So you've got a two and a half hour long thing that people again going back to sort of TV viewership people will stick on their TV and sort of like passively have on while they're sort of doing other activities. So I think, yeah, it's very much about minimum eight minutes if you're trying to monetize organically. And then how long can you realistically hold your viewers' interest?

Balint: 34:40

If we're talking about in terms of funnel content, again it somewhat depends on how you are trying to, what you're trying to get. You know, what are you trying to get your customers to, you know, interact with. But historically speaking, I would say short-form content has been incredibly powerful for brands and because the viewership potential of that is sort of very large and using short-form as funnel in my experience has been very effective and it's also easier to do as a brand. You're not having to think about what is this eight-minute video? What is every single second of this going to be? You're looking at a 30-second, a minute minute and a. What is every single second of this going to be? You know you're looking at a 30 second, a minute minute and a half, kind of little, little bites of information with a specific objective in mind, as opposed to captivating for 10 minutes 15 minutes Exactly.

Chris Norton: 35:30

But I've been. I've been told that the cause obviously you've got YouTube, you're talking about YouTube shorts, right, so you've got youtube full-length videos and you've got youtube shorts, yeah, but I've been told that the two audiences are very different yes, they are just because, just because someone subscribes to it.

Chris Norton: 35:44

This is, this is a weird one for me. So, yeah, someone's subscribed to a youtube channel. Yeah, they don't necessarily see every video. Yeah, now you say that. But then when I'm subscribed because I use youtube a lot, obviously these days I've been been doing this podcast for two years or whatever and I I get, if I'm subscribed to something like um, gary brekker's uh is a health guy that I follow, if he does a short, it pops up in my, it does pop up on my phone, tells me that. So so does that mean that? Because they're supposed to be two distinct audiences, short and long and I just wondered, I don't, I don't know exactly what question I'm asking, but are they two? Are they two different audiences or are they the same? Or are they the same audience? I suppose?

Balint: 36:28

yeah, I think you might fall into that weird category that youtube wishes everyone was, which is you watch a creator's both their long form and their short form content.

Will Ockenden: 36:37

So there are. I'm weird. Basically You're a straddler. Yeah, yeah, great.

Balint: 36:43

You enjoy all content in all its forms. Oh lovely, so there are. I guess it depends on people's viewing habits. So there are sometimes people who almost exclusively watch short form content. There are probably less these days, but there used to be a lot of people who would exclusively only watch long-form content, so, and there was a lot of creative, I think, as well.

Balint: 37:13

What's been happening recently, what's been kind of interesting, is a lot of long-form content creators. Your natural instinct, the moment that short-form content exists, would be I'm a long-form content creator, I can cut up my long-form videos into short-form content and these themselves will become a funnel for my content. That was a natural instinct, I'd say, of most creators and I would say, from almost every single example that I've spoken to, that hasn't turned out to be true. Interesting, they are not seeing that conversion from short form to long form. Uh, they, what they've done is they've built up a massive audience of people who love their short form content, uh, but they're not clicking through into the long form video because youtube talks about um, that being a kind of legitimate strategy.

Will Ockenden: 38:02

Yeah, yeah exactly You're saying. That's not really the way it works.

Balint: 38:05

Maybe there are people who've managed it who I haven't come across In my experience. That's not a strategy that I've seen work and I'd say, going the other way it's been even worse. So there are short form content creators who have become very, very are short form content creators who have become very, very successful short form content creators and then try to get into the long form space. You know they're getting multi-million views and short on the same platform as well.

Will Ockenden: 38:28

So youtube videos are getting multi-million views per video or per week, and the long form video is barely breaking three or four thousand views so as a brand, you know, let's say we're investing in content creation, got some great insight led um education focused content about eight minutes long, yep. Do we segment our longer form videos into shorts or do we need to kind of view shorts as their own platform in and then create, you know, unique content for that?

Balint: 38:53

I think if you take a step back, so you're, when you're thinking about an eight minute video, you're not thinking about one eight-minute video because, again, most viewers aren't going to sit through that whole video. What you're trying to do is create smaller videos inside the eight-minute video for each of your viewer bases. So let's say, you're trying to create a video for the 25% average view duration and the 50% and the 75% and then the 100%. So in reality, what you should have is multiple almost mini story arcs or mini narrative points throughout the video, which then themselves will inherently be quite easy to cut into short form, because they shouldn't be more than two, two and a half, three minutes long each. And then at that point, why not put it into short form? It's not a huge additional piece of labor, so that's a legitimate strategy.

Will Ockenden: 39:44

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Balint: 39:45

Just from a. Again. This is, I guess, from an organic viewpoint, not necessarily from a brand viewpoint. Don't expect your short form content to necessarily lead to massive increases in your long term viewership, but your short form viewers are still just as valuable and, especially as a brand, you're trying to get them onto your website, trying to get them onto your services.

Chris Norton: 40:08

That's a different audience segment. Yeah, because, just anecdotally, I've noticed that we get a lot more short views than we do long views, because obviously the podcast is about between 45 and an hour long each time. People just watch the short stuff. Um, well, uh, you've told us obviously the name of the show is embracing marketing mistakes and you've told us about a mistake that you, um, that happened to you to do with a spanish partner. Do you want to explain a little bit about that?

Balint: 40:36

Yeah, so this was at my previous job. So we ran a. It was a startup, it was called the Newell. What we did were a bunch of students and we were basically organizing video gaming competitions for students, tournaments, events, this kind of thing up and down the country. I think at peak we had, I think, maybe 12,000 or 15,000 students participating on multiple different levels. It was a really weird little niche that we all loved, and we spent a very long time essentially carving the space out for ourselves, so trying to convince the game developers themselves to support the space, but also trying to convince them that it wasn't necessarily as valuable as they thought it was and they shouldn't take it away from us. So you know, we'd been running this I mean, I think we'd been running by this point for four years, so 2016, where we had books come along. So British University and College Sports sort of said hey, we're really interested in this space. You guys have done amazing work. Thank you very much for setting this up. We are now going to set up your competition. So that was fun.

Balint: 41:56

So obviously, we were still sort of relatively young, most of us were still students. Slight panic, but we we were still sort of relatively young Most of us were still students Slight panic. But we had some bigger sort of Spanish partners who did very similar things to us in Spain but were operating on a much larger scale. So they were developing video games and all sorts themselves. So they actually organized a big meetup out there that we went to and we presented who we were to a lot of their partners and a lot of partners that they brought in, told them about our history, told them about everything that we'd been doing for the past four years at that point, how we'd set up the whole market ourselves.

Balint: 42:33

And one of the people in attendance there was the regional heads of Intel, so Intel UK who were massively influential I mean still are sort of in the video gaming space from an events perspective and from a tournament perspective and they were like oh, if you're so big, why have we never heard of you? And you know, yeah, hearing that. It's slightly weird because I've told this story a few times but I have somehow also blocked it completely from my memory Like I think, the trauma of the moment, like it definitely happened, and other people in the room there to confirm that it happened, but I have no actual full recollection of it.

Will Ockenden: 43:13

That's quite a burn, isn't it? Yeah, exactly.

Balint: 43:15

The biggest sort of regional partner, and you've just spent the last you know hour, hour and a half, explaining why you're the hot stuff and they're like, yeah, we've never heard of you.

Will Ockenden: 43:22

Bring you back to the bump.

Balint: 43:24

Yeah, exactly, and I think that's when the sort of realization here I mean, I might jump in the gun from a marketing mistake perspective, but that's kind of realization here of like we've just been speaking to the wrong people so we'd completely misidentified who we should be marketing at and what our audience was. So, you know, we were there to obviously, you know, from a passion perspective and from a user-based perspective, we were there to create amazing events for students. But what that actually meant, you know, the students themselves weren't funding it, it was free. It was always free to enter, free at the point of entry. So we need to basically leverage that student base as a marketing tool. We were essentially a student marketing agency and we just never realized that and we were like, okay, we're a uh, you know, we're a tech video game based student marketing agency. Intel is the biggest brand in this space and they've never heard of us. That does not bode well.

Will Ockenden: 44:20

Um, well, and what happened to the company?

Balint: 44:23

oh, it's still going good it's still going strong, yeah, um, funnily enough, about five or six years later, we sold to that spanish company that had so graciously brought us, uh, out to spain. Um, so we are net the new all still exists, but is now a subsidiary of GG Tech, which is a Spanish company, and did Intel start to get on board and work with you?

Chris Norton: 44:45

Yes, yeah, yeah absolutely so.

Balint: 44:52

I think that's when we started to pull a few sort of big tech sponsorships. So we had Asus Republic of Gamers sort of come on board. We had Amazon actually on board for I think three or four years directly and they basically blanket sponsored everything. Because it was essentially like here is a group of very engaged, usually STEM subject students who are spending money on expensive computer equipment. This is a very, again, very profitable audience to be wanting to market, to Okay, yeah, it just shows you that you've got more than one audience.

Chris Norton: 45:19

Yeah, and you haven't picked your audience to be wanting to market to. Okay, yeah, it just shows you that you've got more than one audience. Yeah, and you haven't.

Will Ockenden: 45:22

You haven't picked your audience to market to and I suppose you can live in a bit of a bubble when you're, exactly when you're hyped amongst a very niche.

Balint: 45:29

No, yeah we spent all our time speaking directly to students and having meetings and setting up councils and groups and you know all this stuff and it's like the, the, but you know which was right. You know all this stuff and it's like but you know which was right, because you know the service was for them, so it needed to make sense and it needed to be on board, but they weren't paying for it. You know they weren't. We needed commercial partners on board who we weren't marketing towards, who didn't know who we were.

Will Ockenden: 45:54

The people anyone with money, basically.

Balint: 45:56

Yeah, yeah, you's willing to shell? You know, shell out for us and you know, and that's when you know, and also, I think, when we, when we were thinking very much in terms of like we are a, when we're thinking in terms of like we're trying to create tournaments and events and this kind of thing, we were very much operating in the traditional space of that gaming world and we were, but we weren obviously we weren't sort of professional, these weren't professional teams, these weren't professional players, so the market value of that was going to be way lower. So we had to approach it completely differently. And once we actually thought about that, I said, okay, what's really difficult from a tech brand perspective, if you ignore the gaming side, it's getting people hands-on access to your tech, getting them to experience it.

Balint: 46:39

So the moment was like we started to build packages, like student support packages, where they could basically get a fleet of equipment sent out to them. They could run their own events. You know, the students could run an event they could never do before because they got, you know, 50 pcs and all this amazing equipment. And the tech brands were like 50 people have just essentially base tested all our products for us and give us insane level of in-depth feedback. You know, multiply that by 100 universities plus freshers fairs, that's an now an insanely powerful proposition to a brand. Um, whereas you know, before we were like, oh well, we're running this tournament and there's 300 teams involved and they're all online and they're not actually interacting with anything. Um, you know that that was much less of a powerful sell what?

Chris Norton: 47:20

what do you do now then? So what, what does voxter do now? What you youtube consultancy. What I did like about you is, which we haven't touched on, is your formula. You've got you. You explained to me the formula for a successful youtube video, which we've kind of touched on, but you haven't. Actually, there is this. There's like a distinct formula that you talked about in there. So, is that, is that what you do? You look at, you, look at a client and then you'll say, right, I think you need to use this formula, and then you'll re-optimize their car, help them re-optimize their car, because anyone that comes to you is going to be a well-trained yeah, uh, content creator, aren't they? They're going to be pretty damn good to be coming to you in the first place. Is that fair?

Balint: 47:58

yeah, that that's pretty fair. I mean, yeah, we try and work. People have had some level of success because a large part of what we do, what we do is find, uh, these content creators, partners and sponsors. So and obviously for you to get a partner or sponsor, you need to be getting a certain amount of views for your content to have that sort of worthwhile audience. That's a sort of monetization, is sort of the base I'd say sort of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a content creator. So monetization is sort of step one and having stable revenue, so that's one of the large things we focus on. And then you know so how do you monetize? You monetize by bringing on external partners. You know doing external things like that. Do you monetize by building out paid-for communities on Patreon or Discord or wherever they may be. That's another angle. But, like you were saying, chris, another way too is how do you better monetize your existing content?

Balint: 48:50

So a lot of content creators are really good at creating engaging videos but don't necessarily understand how actual their content is being monetized by YouTube, because a lot of people who've come from this space are artists, like they view themselves as artists. They view themselves, as you know, like they're in a creative. You know they're creatives, they're in a creative medium. They're not necessarily looking at this as a business. You know there have been so many creatives where, like what you do and I'm sure all marketing people would be like that are in a creative medium. They're not necessarily looking at this as a business. There's been so many creators where what you do and I'm sure all marketing people would be like, the moment you get access to monetization on YouTube, you look and you manually place your ads on your video. Over half the creators we've ever worked with are like oh, we just let YouTube manually place them for us, and most videos have maybe two or three ads. You can stick in 15 or or 20 and also, as it's now come out, this is the big harbloo like a bunch of those ads weren't being served anyway.

Balint: 49:43

So it's like most creators are not optimizing their content for their existing content to be best monetized, and that's one of the approaches. But then a lot of times it will be so what we do as well is we'll work with creators who have, like you know, content creation. For most people, once they're into it, they'd want it to be their sort of long-term, full-time profession. But we've worked especially from a gaming space is we'll work with content creators and they'll have been really into Fortnite because they were like a 15, 16-year-old coming up right and they've suddenly hit like 21, 22, 23 years old. I'm like I've been making Fortnite content for five years. This game, I have zero love for it. I feel like I'm stuck. What do I do? So we helped them transition.

Balint: 50:29

So one of the big YouTubes that we worked with he was a Fortnite content creator, but one of the things is he really liked was actually a lot of the hardware around it. So what different controllers are good things is he really liked was actually a lot of the hardware around it. So what different controllers are good? Um, and he became. He transitioned into being a tech reviewer, um, and sort of initially started off with like expanding from his fortnight audience doing a lot of controllers, then expanded on to doing monitors, uh, different keyboards, apple vision, pros, you know ar vr, all that fun stuff in a way that's authentic as well.

Will Ockenden: 50:59

Yeah, exactly, he's growing with his audience as well, because his audience has grown up as well.

Balint: 51:04

So the people who are watching him there'll be a segment of audience that have stayed with him, but also there'll be a massive churn in his audience because he'll only be capturing the people who want to watch Fortnite content, who aren't there necessarily for him.

Chris Norton: 51:16

Based on what you've told us today, I think this podcast is going to end up being a financial services podcast. The next episode we'll be transitioning into that.

Balint: 51:24

That's where the money is. Hey, if you want to, if you want to be one of those crypto podcasts.

Will Ockenden: 51:30

I'm sure there's a lot of money there. I think we can do that Pump and dump?

Balint: 51:33

Yeah, exactly.

Will Ockenden: 51:34

I've got a final question Now. I'm quite a big fan of kind of future gazing. Now, if we're going to, you know, let's say, next 10 or 20 years, if the world is still here, given global politics, that's a very bit of a doom-monger prediction.

Chris Norton: 51:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Will Ockenden: 51:49

In the next 10 or 20 years. You know what's YouTube going to look like. You know is it going to overtake linear TV, for example? How will?

Balint: 51:58

we be using it? I think so. So I think you know, if we look at places like Channel 4, bbc, itv, they all have fairly decent streaming offerings at this point, so their streaming platforms are actually quite good. I think iPlayer is sort of. Actually, a lot of people like to complain about the BBC, but the iPlayer is an amazing sort of you know service. So they're not necessarily going to be destroyed by the likes of Netflix or the likes of Amazon Prime, because they already have good competing services.

Balint: 52:30

But as more and more people switch to watching YouTube on their TV, it's how will these services adapt to that? I think that's what's going to be really interesting. Like, how do you, as a public service broadcaster, or even Sky they're not public service but how do you adapt to that world where less and less people are watching, and they're watching through this free-to-access platform because there's so much content there available for you? I've not worked in linear TV. I don't know how you make that transition. I don't know if you try and build some weird YouTube competitor. People have tried and failed, but it's definitely different to the experience that you have as a streaming service and I don't think they're quite ready for that transition.

Will Ockenden: 53:20

I suppose it's like the Amazon conundrum isn't it. As an e-commerce retailer, how can you possibly compete with Amazon? Do you build a competitor? Do you just accept that you've got to use their platform to get your products or content out there?

Balint: 53:34

Yeah, no, definitely. I think you know there's, if you compare.

Balint: 53:41

What the worry is that linear TV will go the same way as news, as I can't think of the word written news in the sense that all journalism so all of these websites back in the early 2000s essentially gave all their data and their content to Google and Facebook, which massively destroyed their ability to monetize because they became free to a point of access and they lost all of these monetary partners. Now, if Linear TV does the same thing, you're in for a world of hurt. So it's like if you just put all your content onto youtube, you're just gonna have the exact same thing happen that happened with journalism I've got a final question, because a lot of creatives will be listening to this what, what's the what?

Chris Norton: 54:38

what's the state of vimeo in 2025? I?

Will Ockenden: 54:42

honestly don't know um yeah, when was the last time anyone ever used it?

Chris Norton: 54:46

no yeah uh, because every agency used to use these. Oh no, we don't use uh youtube, we use vimeo didn't they?

Chris Norton: 54:55

like if you're a cooler creative, you'd use vimeo. But and all the video production and the fact that you're a massive youtube advocate vimeo seems to have just gone quiet compared to youtube. Just a bm off of it's just flying, isn't it? And will said is it the future of? I think it's just never. It's never gone down. It seems to keep just growing and growing. And because the younger generation grew up on it, on peppa pig and now on fortnite and now, and it keeps on bringing in the younger opening toy boxes and, yeah, this the demographics getting bigger and bigger, and it keeps on bringing in the younger opening toy boxes and yeah, this the demographics getting bigger and bigger and bigger for youtube, isn't it?

Balint: 55:31

yeah, yeah, and I'm definitely not like uh, I don't love everything you like. I don't want to be a youtube shill sat here. I don't love everything they do, but I think they're the more most forward-thinking platform. Like you, don't see people. What was really interesting? So australia they've just done a social media ban, um, where they've banned under 16s from accessing uh tiktok snapchat, uh instagram. They haven't banned them accessing youtube yeah, I noticed that how.

Will Ockenden: 55:57

Yeah, I mean it's, it's a social network and it's got. It's got community features, yeah, yet it's immune from the ban exactly so it's like they are.

Balint: 56:05

I would say they're the most forward thinking and they're the most who are trying to position themselves from an outward perspective into like trying to Amazing lobbying Exactly.

Will Ockenden: 56:13

Yeah, yeah, From YouTube Australia. There Amazing lobbying.

Balint: 56:17

And you know, and that's why I think, like you don't see, you know you see this rise in YouTube viewership on TV. You don't see the same with TikTok you tv. You don't see the same with tiktok. You don't see the same on instagram. I don't even know if you can get instagram running on your smart tv, um, but like that's. That's where I think that what they're doing is most interesting right now.

Chris Norton: 56:34

Let's see if someone else is something different. One thing I did think would have happened more of now is youtube. I mean, I know you've had people like ksi and other people like that, but actual transitioning into, you know, youtube celebrities transitioning into mainstream tv presenters, I thought that would have happened yeah it hasn't really happened, does it?

Balint: 56:55

no bbc tried it a bit, I think no, there was, yeah, there was a few tries of in the early 2010s. I'd say um and uh, a big one was. Well, I think she made a lot of her success, obviously off YouTube, but she was very, very big on YouTube as well, was Zoella, and she's had very much more sort of traditional media success as well. But what you see now is they almost they create their own little media agencies. So there's two.

Balint: 57:24

The biggest problem with YouTube, which I sort of spoke about earlier and all of these platforms, is you do not have a direct relationship with your audience and a relationship with your viewers. Just because you post a piece of video does not mean they're going to see that video. It won't necessarily appear on their feed. So when companies reach a certain size and they want all their viewers to see their content, they start actually taking them off the platform. So there's been three quite big examples of this recently Linus Tech Tips, who runs a big sort of tech review empire. He invented a platform called Floatplane specifically for this problem. Tryguys, who are very, very big. They're sort of ex-BuzzFeed employees. They've just launched their own essentially service and these are essentially like mini Netflixes, but you've got essentially a core cast of people creating content on that platform and you are subscribing just for their content, and I think that's the direction where all of these people are sort of going, Although I do think the Sidemen have recently done a Netflix deal which I'm going to be intrigued about.

Will Ockenden: 58:28

But it's, yeah, fascinating, fascinating insight, I think you know, absolutely fascinating chat and a ton of value as well for listeners and I think you know listeners to this podcast like the practical tips um don't know, chris, so that that's been fantastic hopefully it's not been all awful yeah, so how can people get hold of you ballon if they want to, if they want to speak to you about re-optimizing their YouTube channels?

Balint: 58:47

Yeah, so our company is called Voxter, so V-O-X-T-R. You can find it online. So hello at Voxter as well will reach us on most email addresses If you've got any complaints about the tips I've given.

Will Ockenden: 59:02

Chris at Prohibition PR is a good contact point, nice, smooth, yeah, yeah, and trust me, they probably work them to me as well and a question we ask all of our guests, belin um, if you could um suggest a guest for the next episode. Is there anyone you've worked with or anyone you've seen that you think would be fantastic on this show? Ideally someone with a bit of a fuck-up as well.

Balint: 59:34

Oh, that's a good question From. I think he's built multiple very successful brands and, from a marketing perspective, I mean, if you could get him, I think it would be a big score. Ali Abdaal, a YouTuber. So he was a doctor, so a qualified doctor, who made content throughout his medical training and then eventually quit to become a full-time YouTuber and has run multiple businesses that's a, that's a going from um qualified doctor to a full-time YouTuber.

Will Ockenden: 1:00:00

That's a bold move, isn't it?

Balint: 1:00:01

exactly, yeah, and he's run multiple training, uh academies, and has become a YouTuber. He ran in his own admission he made about it he launched a physical keyboard which flopped. So I think that he probably could talk about that in depth, about the marketing mistakes, about trying to launch a product as a personality.

Chris Norton: 1:00:18

What was his name?

Balint: 1:00:19

Ali Abdaal.

Chris Norton: 1:00:21

Ali Abdaal. You'd have to give me his details. He sounds like he's got some great stories.

Balint: 1:00:26

Oh yeah, no, I mean, he's been creating in this space I'd say ahead of the curve for a very long time.

Chris Norton: 1:00:32

Well, yeah, thanks for coming on the show. Balan, that was great, thank you very much.

Balint: 1:00:35

Thank you for that. Thank you.