Speaker 1: 0:00

It's really competitive and I think it's getting. It's trying to be more creative, to be honest, because we've all seen and I don't know about you guys, but now, with everyone doing everything through AI, everything's just this it's getting quite bland Vanilla A lot of the content, isn't it Do?

Speaker 2: 0:17

you know what I?

Speaker 1: 0:17

actually think that strategy is better than the other one? I do, but I think, if I'm honest, I was a bit before my time.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Right, okay, so essentially, you're the Google. You're a pioneer, aren't you? I was a pioneer, yeah you're the open AI to.

Speaker 3: 0:30

Google. By the way, I know some of the answers to this Having worked for these years Just trying to find out now. But yeah, I'm curious.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Hi and welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes. I'm your host, chris Norton, and I'm joined today by Rachel Massey, director of Marketing at Huthway International and one of our very lovely clients here at Prohibition. As we know, on this show, mistakes are inevitable, but Rachel's episode shows how a good brief can prevent most of them. She sits down with us for a candid conversation about career slip-ups, the projects we've worked on together and how 72 hours of anxiety was induced by one single typo. As always, sit back, relax and let's hear about what to do when you find out the senior team hates the corporate brochures that took six months of work to create. Enjoy, okay, Rachel Massey, welcome to the show. Thank you very much.

Speaker 3: 1:28

So you're a podcasting pro now, right.

Speaker 1: 1:30

Well, I've already been doing one this morning, so Total, total.

Speaker 3: 1:33

What's the show called?

Speaker 1: 1:35

Mastering, sales and Negotiations by Huthway International.

Speaker 2: 1:38

Well, very good, very good. So I think you're our second client that we've had on the show, so welcome to the show, thank, you. Feel free to vent all anger about working with Will and the team while you're here.

Speaker 1: 1:51

How is it working with us? It's always delightful, to be honest. Is that the right answer? Truly honestly, it's always delightful.

Speaker 2: 1:59

Oh, good, right. So for the benefit of our listeners, your current role is Director of Marketing at Huthway International, and I say you're a client of ours. Can you tell our listeners a bit about what Huthway International do, if they don't know who you are?

Speaker 1: 2:13

Huthway International are the custodians of spin selling most importantly. And that's not selling PR, right? That's not selling PR, no. Spin selling is all about selling skills, really great sales skills. That's not selling PR, no. Spin selling is all about selling skills, really great sales skills. And it's driven from the book Spin Selling by Neil Rackham, which is probably still the number one sales selling sales book sales skills book that there is out there. So that's what Huthwaite do and we have trainers that deliver sales and negotiation skills to organizations all over the world. Truly, international organization.

Speaker 3: 2:50

Pre-Hathwaite, then you've always been a B2B marketer, haven't you? Is that right?

Speaker 1: 2:54

Well, no. So I started out actually as a seller. So I started out as a salesperson in international sales, and then I thought I was getting my second job. I thought I was getting in marketing because that's really where I wanted to be, because all the things I was doing in the sales role, in my sales role, I thought I could be better at this if I had the right information stuff, whatever it was at that time around me, I just didn't think it was good enough. So I went and had another role and I thought that was going to be more marketing role and it wasn't. So I had to really then start from the real bottom of sales and work my way up skills-wise. So I didn't do that at university, didn't have a degree in marketing, did politics and economics, as most people do. I think there's a lot of people that don't have a marketing degree. No, 90% of people that do marketing degrees.

Speaker 1: 3:45

And I do love it and I've done a lot of things since focused on mostly a lot of brand, a lot of exhibitions, a lot of events and a lot of website and digital marketing, but always for.

Speaker 2: 3:58

B2B. So how come you've ended up at Hathaway International and in negotiation skills marketing.

Speaker 1: 4:04

Well, a very lucky coincidence. So a very good friend of mine had the job, wanted to go a different way and I got a recommendation, which is always the best way, I feel, to get a job.

Speaker 3: 4:20

So this is quite a big question In your view what's the state of B2B marketing in 2025? You know what's, uh, you know what's what's cutting through? Because it's it's more competitive than ever, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 4:30

it is. It's really, it's really competitive and I think it's getting. It's trying to be more creative, to be honest, because we've all seen and I don't know about you guys, but but now, with everyone doing everything through AI, everything's just this. It's getting quite bland Vanilla A lot of the content, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 4:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:49

So it's trying to have a voice and trying to have some creativity and some, just to look a little bit different than anybody else in that B2B space, which has always been a scarier place from a creative perspective because people don't want to go there, do they? B2c has always been the zany place for the, for the creative stuff, but I don't feel that b2b has really had, it's not really gripped anybody and I think that's where you, that's where you can make a real difference these days yes, an interesting one, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 5:17

I think you're right. Um, just because it's b2b. For a long time there's been this kind of misconception that we can't be particularly creative, we can't be a challenger brand, and it's always been consumer brands that have kind of been doing these big creative activations. But B2B you're still selling to people, aren't you?

Speaker 2: 5:34

There's no reason why you shouldn't be or couldn't be creative. So what do you do in terms of marketing for them then? What sort of stuff do you do tactically?

Speaker 1: 5:45

Tactically, we for them. Then what do you? What sort of stuff do you do tactically? Tactically with lots, it's really trying to do a long tail sort of branding piece, right, so we're doing the podcasts, obviously we're. We're finding them that they're getting really great interaction. Um, we, because we're a research based company, we try and do, um, a lot of research based stuff. So we've got a lot of white papers. We've got a lot of clever people that work at huthway, they've. So we've got a lot of white papers. We've got a lot of clever people that work at huthway. They've got, we've got some really great intel. So we're really trying to focus on that just actually giving people some practical advice of the things that they can do better, the things that they can improve within their organizations, hoping that they'll think right, these people know what they're talking about.

Speaker 3: 6:20

Let's have a look at them so white papers, I find an interesting one. Um, is there still a place for kind of, because they're almost that to some degree that becomes the kind of de facto tactic, doesn't it? You know we're a b2b brand, we need to produce some white papers, this. Is there still a role for them?

Speaker 1: 6:36

it sounds like there is, um I think I think there is, but I think you've got to do it on on two sort of fronts. There's got to be like a this. There's people that will always want that short summary. I just want to know this in like a page or less, they're like video content. Now you know we've got to. You've got to stick to that. How many seconds?

Speaker 2: 6:52

is it 30 60 seconds?

Speaker 1: 6:55

it's not long, is it? No, so you've got to still do that piece and people have got to get value for that. But I think, with with what we do, with the skills and practice you've got to, people have got to be able to sort of get a little bit deeper than that, because this, this stuff, doesn't just happen automatically. You've got to be prepared to, to go through some training, to actually do things differently yourself, and that that is that's not just a five minute job, you know so it's about there is still a space for it, but it's about real depth and expertise absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:27

So what sort of customers does hathaway international have then? What who you like that target demographic in the b2b space?

Speaker 1: 7:35

it can be. This is why hathaway is a is a. It's a blessing and a curse. So literally anybody. So from one person who wants to change the way that they sell or become a salesperson to a multinational organization who's got salespeople all over the world maybe I don't know five, 600 people. So at either end of the scale, at that scale, we know we will help them and I think for someone like Huthway, there aren't many people that can do the top end of that scale we know we will help them and I think for someone like huthway, there aren't many people that can do the top end of that scale. So you know, in language, six, seven hundred people quickly, um, all over the world and to the same level, yeah, is is somewhere that that you know where we really score highly where do you focus your time and efforts then?

Speaker 3: 8:17

I mean I, by the way, I know some of the answers to this, having worked for these years, um, but, um, yeah, I'm curious, um, you know, because you could target the one man band or the one woman band or a huge international company. You know, you've you've got a limited team and limited time. Where do you focus your efforts?

Speaker 1: 8:37

well, we have to focus our efforts on that, what which which we call sort of this box four area where we tick all these boxes. So you've got international um, you've got quite a lot of people that need training and they're multinational. So that that is really where we try and focus. But, to be honest, a lot of our content because it's really skills focused it will meet people's need wherever they are. To be honest, will just.

Speaker 2: 9:02

His interview is applying the pressure. I don't want to do that. This is more fun. I'm going to take it easier. Um, tell us about you at the time that you did an exhibition stand and what happened, because you gave us a few well, yeah, you see, you want marketing mistakes and I mean there's been a lot.

Speaker 1: 9:19

We've all had a lot, haven't we? Oh yeah, but this one particularly sticks out because when I think about it now, I can still feel the anxiety and I can still feel the dread of watching what happened, what unfolded. So we I was at, we were at excel in london where I'd spent a lot of time over the years, and we it was quite early in my career at one particular organization and this was a big stand at Excel in London where I'd spent a lot of time over the years, and we it was quite early in my career at one particular organization and this was a big stand build. This is, I don't know, probably a hundred square meters stand Big.

Speaker 3: 9:46

And the investment is huge for those, isn't it Huge for?

Speaker 1: 9:48

those Six, six figure stuff, wow. And it's in the middle of Excel, four sides, four sides. What color is it? It's multi-colored, multi-colored. And, um, we'd done all the messaging inside the stand so we'd got, uh, we'd signed all that off, we've got that down to down part, great. But I hadn't really thought about the signage. I'm not, I had really thought about it was standard signage around the edge of the stance, it was just our strap line brand. Maybe overlook that slightly. So this is day one opening the stand. It's all all going gray and the the guy. Um, someone came up to me and said the guy at the stand opposite wants to chat. So I said okay. So I went over to this stand and he's got another big stand. He went, he said I don't know how to tell you this. He said but you've missed t out of software all over your stand, so not just once, no, it's all over what so?

Speaker 1: 10:46

someone couldn't spell software when they wrote the someone I don't know who it was, but it was something that was overlooked, because it wasn't. This was just. This is standard message, this is standard stuff so I never even thought so. It said software. So this was all over this stand and software the.

Speaker 1: 11:06

The second day usually if this happens and you get some sort of spelling mistake, you can send it to the printers. You have to throw money at it and you can get it sorted. But this is day one and this is in London. So chief execs coming to see the stand, there's a lot of important guests coming to this stand. This is a big showpiece, so I had to make the decision. So I thought, right, this has been around now sort of all morning. No one said anything about a guy that's looking at this stand his whole time. Do I fess up, tell people what I've done, or do I just think no one else has noticed it so far? I'm going to stick with it, I'm going to pretend I don't even know and we're just going to continue. And that's what I decided to do.

Speaker 2: 11:47

What time of day was it that you heard that there was a spelling mistake and it was software everywhere?

Speaker 1: 11:53

It was probably about 11 am, so the show had been open like a couple of hours and how many people do you think is in the show?

Speaker 2: 11:59

Thousands, thousands, okay.

Speaker 3: 12:01

Plus the whole leadership team of the company.

Speaker 1: 12:02

Plus the whole leadership team of the company, all the team that was. I mean, there was I don't know how many stand staff 20, 30? And how long was the show? Three days so for 72 hours I just sweated and I and I was just. The anxiety was high because every time someone said my name I just was like what? Because I thought they were going to say have you noticed that? What level were you?

Speaker 2: 12:23

here. Did you have bosses there as well? Yeah, right, okay.

Speaker 1: 12:28

But what you know, I couldn't do anything about it.

Speaker 3: 12:32

So I just thought no one has noticed it In front of the word every time it was everywhere.

Speaker 1: 12:36

I couldn't position myself, were they only?

Speaker 2: 12:38

using this stand once, and then that was it they were going to build it after that.

Speaker 1: 12:41

Unfortunately, that is what happens with stand builds. Yeah, you just build them and then they take them down, unfortunately. But at that point they might be a little more environmentally friendly these days, but that's what used to happen.

Speaker 2: 12:52

I think the moral is that nobody reads, stands, that's a very cynical very cynical view of it.

Speaker 1: 12:59

Nobody bloody reads them. What I did, what I did know was because I'd written that word a lot in my time at this Software yeah, that I had done it. It's a mistake that you do when you're typing a lot. So I thought this is, this is a mistake that people don't pick up, and I've not picked up, like before in other certain things. So I knew that it was a mistake, that was common and I just had to just, yeah, just go with it.

Speaker 3: 13:22

So when the clock struck five o'clock on the last day, were you just incredibly relieved.

Speaker 1: 13:27

I've never do. You know what this is? No one knows. I've never, ever told anyone.

Speaker 3: 13:30

An exclusive I love this.

Speaker 2: 13:32

I absolutely love it. We're clipping that bit. I mean, it's the fact that you've spent the whole time. Basically, you did the the ostrich approach, which is you buried your head in the sand.

Speaker 1: 13:43

I buried my head in the sand and just thought I'm just gonna grin and bear it. But this wasn't. This was quite early on in this. This was a big. I just didn't. I couldn't do it. I just couldn't. No, if anybody else had noticed, else would have noticed, I would have been. I can't believe it. But no one did and I got away with it it would have been so insincere me and the guy in the stand across. That's all that knew.

Speaker 2: 14:03

Your fake surprise really how did nobody notice, how did nobody?

Speaker 1: 14:08

notice, I mean I've. You'll be surprised that that word, particularly it. When you just glance at it you don't. You just think it says software, because that's what you expected to say. There's certain words, isn't it? When you?

Speaker 2: 14:18

just glance at it, you don't. You just think, oh, it says software, because that's what you're expected to say. There's certain words isn't there, when you see, like grammar books and things where they do it and they take a letter out and you can't notice it.

Speaker 1: 14:24

No, they do it because a lot happens. Well, maybe that is. We need to do the research into that is there some retired chief? Exec listening to this. Now, let We've all done that and I say you must have in PR. You must have done spelling mistakes the whole time I've told this story before.

Speaker 2: 14:41

So my second job actually in PR, I worked in London and as an exec starting out we worked in tech PR and as an exec. Part of the admin of the job was basically printing all the press releases out, stapling them and folding. We actually got trained on how to fold them into three so they fit perfectly in an envelope. Then we'd go down to the mail room and you'd get all like it was 250 of us Mail room.

Speaker 1: 15:07

that's old school, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 15:08

Exactly. You'd get like 15, 20 of us at all the same level, and we'd be like a chain and you'd be folding up press releases and putting them into envelopes. Then you'd run them through, get it the Franken-machine. Do you remember that?

Speaker 2: 15:19

Yeah, I remember the Franken-machine, they were quite fun because they'd fly through the Franken-machine Anyway. So I remember being specifically like 83 press releases in of a press release that we'd written and the team had written. And on the second sorry to all clients listening right now second paragraph in I saw typ typo like a small typo and I was like did exactly what you did. I was like pretend it's not that I'm gonna have to go upstairs because this wasn't. This wasn't the days of being able to like it's not digital is it?

Speaker 2: 15:47

you've got to go upstairs change everything, reprint it all out, come all the way back down, and we missed the post, so we just I just went with it with a typo. What?

Speaker 3: 15:54

was was the typo.

Speaker 2: 15:56

I can't remember, it was probably software.

Speaker 3: 15:58

Because, we weren't in tech Probably.

Speaker 3: 16:01

My first ever job in PR. This isn't the other story I told you earlier. I'm not going to tell that story. I had to mail out 5,000 companies Again traditional mail out, asking for sponsorship. And it said dear colleague, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, um. And on the last batch that I was sorting out, um, I realized it didn't say dear colleague, it said dear college, oh no, but again, head in the sand carried on I think that might be a software one, though I think people might just see that and not actually realize that one yeah, and they get the gist, don't they?

Speaker 3: 16:35

you get the gist, don't they.

Speaker 2: 16:36

You get the gist. It's not as bad as Maybe. That's what I should have told my chief exec, you get the gist.

Speaker 3: 16:41

Well, everyone knows what you're trying to say, don't they?

Speaker 2: 16:43

You get the gist it's not going to work in a branding meeting, is it?

Speaker 3: 16:47

Any other wild mistakes that spring to mind, professional or otherwise?

Speaker 1: 16:53

Yeah, well, one which was more, which is what we've been quite standard, and I thought I don't want to do it in that standard way. I want to let's, let's go and do a load of case studies with clients and let's tell the brand through them, show them who we are through their stories, authentic, authentic, um, and so I, we had a photographer that we went around, we went to loads lots of different places I don't want to name, went to lots of different places, took lots of different photos of these people, who some, you know, not as photogenic, let's say, as they could be. So we, you know, we, we did our best and they then they were very pleased with the results. There's never had these, these great professional photographs done before, told their story, pulled it all together and I did like the first, we did the first two, and then I showed it to my marketing director and I said, look, this is what we're going to do and we're going to pull out these quotes talks about the brand, but in a real personal way.

Speaker 1: 18:00

And he'd sort of agreed to it up front, but I don't think maybe I hadn't quite explained it so well, and then he took that to the chief exec, who just went immediately. No, that's not what we want. We want a. We are a, we've serviced, so I had to take one. All these people were loving this idea that we'd gone and photographed, so they wanted to see their names and their photos up in lights and I couldn't provide that for them, so I had to take these as very, very expensive case studies and try and do something else with them.

Speaker 1: 18:34

So that's what they were. They were just very expensive case studies, but you know what I actually think that strategy is better than the other one I do, but I think, if I'm honest, I was a bit before my time right, so so essentially, you're a pioneer yeah and I don't. I just don't think that they could see that brand. They couldn't see that brand vision of what was trying to do. They just wanted it to be a bit more black and white and this was a bit more inferred, wasn't?

Speaker 2: 19:02

it because, like the modern marketing now, is all about.

Speaker 1: 19:04

That would be all. That would be all over that now, would, wouldn't it?

Speaker 2: 19:07

There'd be like an employee advocacy program that I introduced 15 years ago.

Speaker 3: 19:13

Is this kind of an example of conservative? Conservative, I can't say it conservatism with a small c in terms of B2B I think so.

Speaker 1: 19:24

It's that B2B and it was quite conservative and I just don't think they were. They just weren't ready for that. They wanted they when they, when they looked at their competitors and where they wanted to place themselves. That was just too out there for them you know, and it wasn't really was it when we think about things now, but then maybe it was a little bit more so what?

Speaker 3: 19:42

as as a creative b2b marketer, then you know there's going to be listeners to this thinking yeah, I'm trying to sell in big creative B2B ideas to my board and my chief exec. How can they do that? Because not every B2B brand is overly progressive, is it? There's lots of B2B brands doing really great creative work and that's what's required to get cut through. But there is a lot of conservative. I can't say it. But there is a lot of conservative, as you know.

Speaker 1: 20:08

I can't say it there is a lot of conservative thinking around around b2b and I think it comes from a sort of real, particularly when it's really corporate. Yeah, and there's like that, we dared, and do you know, we dared, we dared be that person and stand out in that way. And I think, a lot of the time and and we, I think we can all be guilty of this is there's so many messages that you want to get across, that one piece of great creative, which you know has got to have one, if not maybe two, very core messages. That's just not enough for them, is it? They want, but we need to say this and we need to get that over, and we need to get that over, and it's like you're not going to be able to do that. What is the essence of what we're trying to get?

Speaker 2: 21:21

across and we'll do that piece and that needs to be enough in this space that we're in and I don't think people are very good at doing that. Yeah, it's dull. A lot of a lot of b2b stuff 90 of it, as you say, is vanilla. It's dull and people think working in b2b is dull, but it's not like if you do an amazing, great, interesting, engaging content, it can work so much better than b2c as well yeah, I think a lot, of a lot of people in b2b are very interesting roles, very they do very interesting things but you never really get to it, do you?

Speaker 1: 21:43

you know they don't really get to them, to the nub of what they, what they really do. It's all glossed over with this very corporate speak yeah which is quite hard, you know, to get, to get that the, the real essence of who you are through that brand, through the way that you're writing, is difficult for people to get on board with and it's difficult for everybody to do it consistently, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 22:06

Who is doing it? Is there any B2B brands out there that you think are just nailing it?

Speaker 2: 22:10

Adobe are. Well, I heard a thing about Adobe. They did an AI summit just in the last six months. They held a summit in. I think. A thing about Adobe they did an AI summit just in the last sort of six months. They held a summit in. I think it was Las Vegas and Adobe's all over, obviously the AI side of things and B2B and they were looking at apparently what AI has done is changed. You know everybody's been talking about it for years, like personalization and marketing is the next thing to do.

Speaker 2: 22:35

Well, actually, apparently, now with AI, that is exactly what Adobe are enabling, like the fact that you can now completely, you know, like your white papers you were just talking about I was thinking earlier about your white paper you were talking about whereas you would have a generic white paper in a sector and you'd target the sector. I think now you could target the businesses of a certain size within that sector, like much, much more. Yeah, you, businesses of a certain size within that sector, like much, much more. Yeah, you can get really, really niche, yeah, and make it completely about them with ai, because you're not writing it's the ai is.

Speaker 1: 23:01

So I think that's what that adobe is one do you not think you've got to be a little bit careful with ai, though, just on it well, on the tone of voice that it gives you? I know you can ask it to give you different tones and you can make it do that, but it's still sometimes for me. It's still sometimes for me. It's still got to be rewritten, it's still got to be put in and you've still got to put your spin on that.

Speaker 2: 23:21

It's an intern level is what we've been talking about. But actually, yeah, if you've trained it on your, if you've got templates and things like that, yeah, you can train it to, train it to be exactly on.

Speaker 2: 23:31

You know British English, not using M dashes and loads of exclamation marks. And hey, rachel, you know you can make it much less American sounding and more UK sounding if that's where you're based. Yeah, it can be, but I know what you mean like. And also it makes stuff up Like the amount of times I ask AI to do something and it still does it anyway and sticks it in the email and you're like you can't, you shouldn't be doing that.

Speaker 1: 23:54

But it can't do things like. We've got Robin, who you'll know who we do the podcast with. He is a brilliant writer and he wrote a blog for us recently and it started with a quote from Frasier. Now AI ain't going to do that for you Well it is if you give him the prompt it is if you give him the prompt, but that's just come from him.

Speaker 1: 24:15

You know what I mean. You give him the prompt, but you don't. That's just come from him. You know to me that's his way of doing stuff, so what you wouldn't be giving him a prompt to do that.

Speaker 2: 24:20

You just break it down structurally and say frazier quote was it?

Speaker 3: 24:22

I can't remember which one.

Speaker 1: 24:23

It was now, but it was a. It was a. It was a great way of introducing a, of introducing a blog, and it's that kind of stuff that I think. Yes, you can prompt it, I suppose, but it's just and if you were going to do that, why just write it then, if you're going to prompt it to that degree?

Speaker 2: 24:41

I suppose what it allows you to do is have one campaign that is completely bespoke to 100 audiences and, yeah, it'll take time to write those prompts and get it all tailored and get it ready and so the end result that you get out a hundred different versions that have maybe taken you the time it took you to do 10 normally. You've now got 100 or 120. Do you know what I mean? You've got scalability then. That.

Speaker 3: 25:03

That's the difference, I think I mean going full circle, back to what you guys do. So I think one of the things you do really well and and your team just get is then you know, rather than, like you said, rather than generic white papers, there's genuine knowledge there and deep knowledge isn't there. And I remember one of one of your papers is on, um, um, medical device, the sales and something around the sales imperatives of medical device sales professionals, and it's so niche it answers. It answers a direct question that a tiny audience are interested in and you're not interested in that other 95 are you. And by making it so specific and so deep.

Speaker 3: 25:42

It consistently works and it's one of one of your most effective effective paper. Yeah, and, and it comes down to that super specialist knowledge that answers one sliver of your key audiences questions and challenges, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 25:54

I think as well, you're thinking about what we do and we, we really know, if there's anybody you know, we know what those sales challenges are, those marketing challenges, are those negotiation challenges? Are we really do so? When we write things, particularly long form pieces like white papers, we can really quickly get to the. We really get to those aha moments quick because we know what they are so well you know, we're finding those out every day well, that's it.

Speaker 3: 26:19

And um, I think the layman would look at it and think hold on, we're isolating 95 of our audience here by by not being quite general. But actually the opposite is true, isn't it the?

Speaker 1: 26:29

more specific, more specific you are, and that it works perfectly for you know, for search.

Speaker 3: 26:34

Um, we work with a research consultancy and they called them holy shit moments which I thought was quite a nice way to phrase it. So it's kind of light bulb moments that just give you that enormous value, isn't it? And I suppose it's about trust ultimately, isn't it? It's not going to lead to a sale straight away, but your audience will trust you. You will become that authority in their mind.

Speaker 1: 26:55

I think, yeah, and what you're talking about really resonates. We've got one white paper that's called um. Why do bad things happen to great new products? Because they do, you know, all the time. And, and it is a question that people will genuinely ask but this was brilliant, why didn't this, why we launched this and why didn't this work? And, and the answer is a myriad of things, but this might give you an idea of some of the things you need to look at and those. You know, those kind of, those kind of questions, those kind of problems that people have when, yeah, we're very good at knowing what they are the other paper you've done which really grabbed me and I think grabbed a lot of people, is um dirty tricks and negotiations yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:30

So looking at some of those, they're really interesting for anybody, whether they negotiate or not.

Speaker 3: 27:34

Absolutely fascinating things like what goes a dirty trick.

Speaker 1: 27:36

There's some ones that relate to sort of really big negotiations, but there's some that you know I think a lot of people relate to, um, rolling concessions is one, so people get into a negotiation and then they'll go right. I think we're nearly there if we can just agree this last point and then right, that's, we're done. But what about this? And? And it just keeps going on?

Speaker 3: 27:55

so people are more willing to agree because they think it's the last point.

Speaker 1: 27:58

So we'll agree to this because then we're going to get it over the line, and then, and then suddenly it stops a bit, and then it might be, another one appears and and I think people can get into that without really realizing what's going on, because they just they think they've done, and is that across the line? That's a deliberate um approach is it can be for people who know what they're doing.

Speaker 3: 28:15

Yeah, yeah because I think some sometimes you go into a negotiation and you assume there's goodwill on both sides, but one party might be super trained in how to extract maximum value yeah, that's the dirty trick, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 28:28

you know we're gonna. We're gonna try and get them on this. Let's go, we want this, this, this and this, and we're gonna get it any. Let's get to this point.

Speaker 2: 28:33

We'll think they're agreed and then we just want these other things as well would we, would we be in in the right frame of mind if, like we were going to sell our house, for instance, and then we just hire somebody from hathaway international to negotiate the sale for us.

Speaker 1: 28:46

Yeah, just do that, yeah, just get.

Speaker 2: 28:47

Yeah, get robin in, get get tony in what do you enjoy most about working in marketing today?

Speaker 1: 28:55

What I like about marketing today is just the range of things that you can do. So at the moment, we're doing podcasts, we've got the more traditional white papers that we're doing. We've got the blogs that we always do. We're doing loads more video, and those videos are not just for the website. They'll be for YouTube, they'll be for social media. There's just so much more to think about and so many ways that you can really rinse the assets that you've got. You know, you've got that white paper. You're turning that into blogs. You've got this. You've got the long piece of video. You're turning that into clips, everything. There's just much more creative ways to deal with the content that you create now, now, and I really like that. I really like thinking about that and thinking about the best ways of using it yeah, content's never had so much potential has it no not at all years ago, as content would be a brochure or a piece.

Speaker 3: 29:44

A piece of it would be really steady.

Speaker 1: 29:47

But now it's just got so much more creative and there's so much more you can do with it.

Speaker 2: 29:51

But video was so much more expensive back then, though, wasn't it like you'd have, like it'd have to be? It was almost like 50 grand to do a video back in the day, a corporate video.

Speaker 1: 29:59

It was really expensive you know, I mean the barriers to entry, and it was, and it was so steady as well, wasn't? It.

Speaker 3: 30:06

Everyone was just so corporate suit, oh yeah, and where would you even distribute it? You know, you think now there's so many different channels to distribute.

Speaker 1: 30:13

It would just be on your website and that would be it.

Speaker 2: 30:14

It would be an interview with a ceo about how great his operation is, and then someone.

Speaker 1: 30:19

Then someone who was looking after your website was going. You have to take that down, because he's dragging your website down. Nobody can open it no one couldn't see it on a mobile.

Speaker 2: 30:25

On dial-up we're downloading the website and it keeps breaking exactly so, um, we always.

Speaker 3: 30:31

This is going to be an easy question, I hope. Um, we always ask our guests um who else you think we should interview. If we could have somebody else on the show I'm thinking straight away Robin and Tony would be great guests to kind of dive into the negotiation and sales side of things. Anyone in the kind of the marketing sphere who you think would be a fascinating conversation.

Speaker 1: 30:51

Karen Woodhead would be a good conversation. Someone that I really look up to from a marketing perspective has got great things to say. Very clever lady.

Speaker 3: 31:00

She would be a great guest for you people want to connect with you or find out about hathwaite um. Where should they head?

Speaker 1: 31:05

hathwaiteinternationalcom, or you can find us on linkedin x and facebook thank you thanks.