Chris Norton: 1:01

Every marketeer wants to stand out, but too often we play it safe, stick to the rules, and blend in with everybody else. Sam Benton didn't want that. When he joined up with Rory Sutherland, they launched Mad Masters during lockdown. Their goal wasn't to teach textbook marketing, it was to rip up the rulebook, to show marketers what to do when the frameworks failed. He shared how pricing is never just a number, how creativity comes from culture, and why even the best ideas need space to incubate. Along the way, he revealed how a KFC product only succeeded when they doubled the price, why a cookie can become a brand's best marketing campaign, and how herd mentality shapes our every purchase. But before all that, Sam shares a career mistake that every ambitious marketer will recognise. The moment you realise you don't, in fact, know it all. Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistake is the podcast that helps you grow your brand faster, all by learning from the Slipbox of the world's top marketers. I'm Chris Non and my mission is to help you, the senior marketer, turn failure into your fuel for growth. Today Will and I are joined by Sam Benton, co-founder of Madmasters, and part of the team behind Math Fest London, the UK's biggest marketing event. We talked about behavioural science, creativity, pricing psychology, and the cultural ingredients that make great marketing. Sam unpacks what behavioural science can teach us about pricing, how to build cultures that embrace creativity, and why failure might be the most valuable marketing tool of all. So, as always, sit back, relax, and let's hear how you can stop fearing failure and start using it to your advantage. Enjoy. Welcome Sam Benton. How are you doing? Yeah, good, good. How are you? Yeah, good. Yeah, thanks for joining Will and I. Um we're we're here at last. Um, yeah, so for those of people that have never heard of Mad Masters, do you want to just give us a rundown of what you guys do and why that is of interest to marketing professionals?

Sam Benton: 3:06

Yeah, Mad Masters is something that Rory and I started four years ago now. And it was mainly out there because there's so many online courses that are framework, textbook, fundamental things that you need to learn. A lot of them are sort of here's three things to write down and report back to someone with, which definitely didn't fit the mould with what Rory teaches and what uh he always speaks about. So when we created this, we wanted to do something completely new and kind of give people the frameworks to do of what to do when the textbooks don't work. How do you rip up the rule book? How do you dare to be different and sort of be less boring in what you do? Um, which is a a massive thing in marketing. It's how to stand out, it's how to find that next best idea, it's how to better solve problems and better take risks. So it's a very practical course that people can learn things from and then actually be able to apply them in scenarios the very next day. Uh how long is it? How long's the course? Yeah, so you it's 10 modules. You get access for 12 months. It was interactive interactive live sessions with Rory and I. Uh, so it's not just a here's a bunch of videos, watch them in your own time and then bugger off. Uh, you really get that community element to it, and you get to feel heard and inspired from them. So most people do it in 10 weeks. You get 12 months, because we all know how things is, uh, things are with marketers, where you'll have an absolutely hectic month and not be able to touch anything or not want to touch anything else beyond the briefs you're working on. So it's always always good to be able to come back to at different points.

Chris Norton: 4:43

And how's it how did it come about, Sam? Sorry, Will.

Sam Benton: 4:46

Yeah, so our parent company is Madfest London, which many of the listeners may have heard heard of. It is the biggest marketing and advertising event in the UK. The year that's just gone, we have 15,000 people there. Uh, and that's been running for seven years. And the fun times of around 2020, when COVID hit, physical events uh weren't the easiest thing to put on anymore. Um, so we we always had Rory as a headline speaker at that event, and when everyone was having to pivot to online, we thought, what can we do to really enhance the attendee experience of people that can't come to Madfest anymore? So we teamed up with Rory to really create this practical course and give people a chance, especially through COVID, to upskill and think about how they raise their own status in their organization. So it came about around COVID time when everything needed to go online and it's really excelled ever since now. I think probably had about 10,000 people do it over the last four years. Wow. Uh which is incredible.

Will Ockenden: 5:48

So this is quite an open question, but um, you know, I loved what you said about kind of um you know ripping up the rule book and and and standing out. And obviously, as marketers, that's you know, that's that's what we all want to do, isn't it? To stand out and not be boring and not just be another brand saying the same things. So clearly the course is weeks and weeks and weeks worth of learning, and we've only got an hour or so on the pod. But what kind of key do you want to talk us through a few teachings or a few areas perhaps on on the Mad Masters that that allow brands to do that? You know, maybe I mean in the in the pre-show chat, we you're talking about pricing, for example. Is that something that that people get wrong constantly?

Sam Benton: 6:29

Yeah, uh pricing is definitely a big thing, right? And this is something that Rory and I speak about quite a lot, and it's quite an impactful message of to an economist, pricing is a number, to a consumer, pricing is a feeling. Uh, which uh put simply, I mean, Rory and I were speaking about this the other day. We were both trying to buy one of those new Dyson air purifiers, and when we got to the checkout stage, you look at it and you see 450 pounds, and you think, no, I'm not not gonna buy that, that's way too expensive. But the image of Klarna then comes in because you look at it, you see three times £150, and you go, Oh, that that that seems pretty reasonable. I'll still buy it that way. It's the same price, they're all four, it's £450 regardless. But it's the way that as a consumer you feel when you look at something like that. So Klarner's obviously taken that space and done very, very well, but it's how you reframe pricing, it's how you can actually understand why consumers think the way they do, and then how you're able to influence that. Uh, beyond that, I mean we stand by that. I don't think anyone should ever discount pricing or reduce pricing. It's a weird one with uh KFC a while ago where KFC they had a product that they brought out, it was meant to be this premium box thing that they were trying to sell, and it wasn't selling at all. They were really not doing well, and what they were going to do was either scrap it entirely or drop the price about 50% and see if we did if it was going to be successful. But what we actually said was no, why don't you double the price? Just play around with this, double the price of it and see how it goes. So they doubled the price and then it absolutely flew, it absolutely took off. It was like the best thing ever. Because people, if they're looking at a premium product, they're saying, Well, what why on earth is it the same price as everything else? It's a feeling if they what if they want it to feel premium, they want to be able to pay a premium pricing for it. So it's kind of how it's reframed and reshaped when you think about that. That really sort of like inspires people. How can you get that message across? And how can you think about any brand or anything that you're doing? How can you think about that in a different way?

Will Ockenden: 8:30

One of my favorite kind of references on pricing, if you've ever watched Mad Men, Don Draper says 99 cents, somebody came up with that. And it's true though, isn't it? You know, that and that's now you know, the kind of irregular. I mean, it's just absolutely genius, and it's astonishing nobody ever came up with that before.

Sam Benton: 8:48

Yeah, it the weird one that I or another story on this was uh it was, and I think it was an espresso actually, they came out with two coffee machines about five years ago, and there was one that was the Super Duper Advanced, had all these extra features, one, and then they had the basic one. And on the site, they were the same price. So everyone bought the basic one because they thought, well, if that advanced one has all these extra features, but it's the same price as the basic one, there must be something they're not selling. There must be something that means that this is gonna blow up or burn my house down within a month. So I won't touch it. I'll just buy the standard one.

Chris Norton: 9:23

Bizarre things like that. It's crazy crazy, isn't it? Because everybody, a lot of markets, I I hear a lot of people talking about pricing, and they're like and um the world of like SaaS is is definitely all about pricing. So you have you usually have three boxes, don't you have basic, you have intermediate, and you have enterprise or whatever you want to call it. And you you always sort of looking at the and they usually have all the different benefits of or features, depends on which way they've done it, and then you you're comparing and seeing and making you buy, and and and I think a lot of people look at pricing in that way, but often you're right, it is m it's not about that. It's often just about it's about how you feel about something, and am I willing to pay that? I remember that I saw I saw a story about someone who had a t-shirt of t-shirt printing stand, and they were selling them from they were like um $7.99 in exactly the same sort of story that you're saying. He was trying to sell them on this market store. Really nice t-shirts, but they're in like eight quids, nine quid, something like that. And then somebody told him to double the price, and he sold triple the amount because people just bought them all pre and so they paid more money and he got more orders online and everything. So it's it's bizarre because sometimes you just think, oh, the the world of discount pricing as well is fascinating. Like you've just said there, but we started that by saying don't never dis never discount, yeah, which is which is another problem that a lot of people do, they launch with a discount straight, and you've straight off the bat you're losing, aren't you?

Sam Benton: 10:46

Yeah, it's it's the whole thing of the money off the verse value on. So, for example, if you were instead of doing 50% off, doing uh buy one, get one free. For example, if someone looks at 50% off, they're gonna go, oh no one's buying this, it must be they must be trying to flog stock. But if it's buy one, get one free, you instantly look at and go, oh, now they're just giving me a good deal because they value me as a customer.

Will Ockenden: 11:09

I'm keen to get your view on something, actually, Sam. I saw the other day a wine menu in a restaurant, but instead of starting with the house wine and moving up to the um, you know, these the uh exquisite French burgundies, it started with the expensive ones and ended on the cheaper ones. And it's really interesting because I think you anchor to the expectation you're gonna pay more, and I bet they sold more expensive wine than house wine. Um, what's your view on that?

Sam Benton: 11:37

Yeah, I think that's I mean, uh the way you anchor a menu is obviously definitely important. Uh, the best one with wine, there's a guy, oh, what's his name? I can never remember his name. It'll come to me later. But he talks about wine in a restaurant full stop, about how you're instantly prompted into buying wine. Uh, because that's the one thing if you look at it. If ever you go into a nice restaurant and you're there, you're gonna pay, you're gonna mark the occasion by buying nice wine. And you never know how much wine should cost. So it could be something that's a five-pound bottle, but you'd never know if it's on there for 80 pounds just because wine is one of those things that could be marked up beyond all hell in sort of restaurants like that. But beer, for example, if you go into a nice restaurant and it says, Oh, it's it's 24 pounds for a pint of neck oil, you'd tell them to bugger off. You wouldn't, no chance in hell they can mark up because you know how much it should cost. So instantly when you walk into a restaurant, you're prompted into buying wine. There's as soon as you sit down, what's on the table? There's two wine glasses, and there is a wine glass. And if ever you go into a really nice restaurant and you say, Oh no, I'm not gonna have wine, I'm just gonna have a beer, or I'm just gonna have a can of coke, there's usually some sort of snobby waiter that will come around and emphatically lift up the glass off to say, Oh, you're you're cheaping out on this meal.

Chris Norton: 12:48

Yeah. And remove the wine list, the drinks list. They snatch it. Oh, they basically cube straight away, don't they? Here's your bottle of Maretti.

Sam Benton: 12:56

Yes, slam it in a bottle of Maretti now, now bugger off back to the sort of thing.

Will Ockenden: 13:02

So does behavioral science underpin everything you do on on the um the mad masters, um, or is there other elements of it as well?

Sam Benton: 13:10

Uh I think there's probably three pillars, which is sort of behavioural science, creativity, and data. And I think nowadays so many people get bogged out in data, and they think that that's the all-encompassing important thing that you need to focus on. But I think for real success in the marketing world, you do need to have that behavioral lens on things. That is such a critical pillar nowadays. You obviously need creativity as well. So, creativity is a big thing. The guys at the business of creativity do things really amazing there with John Heggerty. Uh, they've put a massive focus on that element as well. But that's something that can't die out. You need to have those three pillars there. You need to understand why people do what they do. You need to have that creative element to really cut through the noise, and you need to have the data, obviously, because you need to know who to target. I mean, if you're, I don't know, if you were selling an online course and your data was all wrong and you were targeting junior mechanics, uh, you're probably not going to get many sales from the marketers that you want. So those three pillars uh I think are incredibly important in the marketing world now.

Will Ockenden: 14:42

So creativity is an interesting one, isn't it? I think a lot of people flatly refuse to even attempt to come up with an idea because they just assume they're not creative. But is there any is there can anyone be creative? I suppose is my question. And and how can we be more creative as marketers, or is it down to the quality of the insight?

Sam Benton: 15:02

Um, I think there's sort of two points to go down. There's creativity as a whole, whether you're looking at creative assets or the design, or if you're doing a marketing campaign, all the creative assets that go into that. But then there's creative thinking, I think, which is immensely important. And that obviously ties into behavioral science as well. But creative thinking is looking at a problem and figuring out a different solution to it. Maybe it's sometimes you have to think about that problem, you have to rewrite the question 10, 20, 50 times, just rewrite it in different ways, reframe it and creatively think through that solution. Because sometimes then the answer will become clear and it's not a problem anymore. So if you can inspire across teams, across organizations, a level of creative thinking, that is immensely important. And I think that comes from a culture as well across the company of do you encourage creative thinking? Do you encourage experimentation for your teams to go out and actually get that success? Or is there that culture which is also common in a lot of companies, where there's that fear of failure of if I do this creative piece and it doesn't work, or this new idea and it doesn't work, am I going to lose my job? In which case, if they think like that, then then obviously never going to try and do that creative idea. They're never going to think about that should have gone to Spec Savers moment, for example, for them, or the um Avis, we're we're second best, so we're try harder. Though those campaigns would have never existed if they didn't have that cultural input of people being able to think differently and really strive for greatness. So I think creative thinking is a is a massive area that uh you see some people focus on, but I I definitely don't think enough.

Chris Norton: 16:43

I like the I like the thing where they say that you you think you take a problem, you think about the brief or whatever, and then you let it uh you let it settle, don't you, overnight or whatever. What's that word? What's the word we use? Incubates. Incubating, that's it. And then suppose if my time's about 4 a.m. I'll wake up and there'll be an idea. That's when an idea pops in my head, it's really annoying. And they say that's when it's transmitted from where from the universe, I don't know, wherever it comes from. When you turn the main light on and wake up your wife.

Sam Benton: 17:11

So do you get kicked out of the bedroom?

Chris Norton: 17:13

That's yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. Um, but yeah, creativity is a weird thing. Like if you let it incubate, it sort of comes at a random time, it pops in your mind.

Sam Benton: 17:23

Oh, I I I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, some of the best creative thinkers I know is the ones where it's kind of everything you're told not to do at university of when you get an assignment, and you always used to. I mean, I was used to, I'm sure many people did, where it then gets to two days before it's due, and you're like, shit, I haven't started it yet. I need to get on it now. But some of the best creative thinkers that you'll see out there, they'll have a brief that's due in eight weeks, and they'll say, Cool, all right, I'm just gonna sit on this. I will let it incubate. You can't rush that creative thinking, you can't rush greatness in those ideas. So they'll sit on it, they'll sit on it for six weeks, they'll sit on it for seven weeks, but then there'll be that time where essentially it will just pop into their minds. They will have that magical moment that comes in that they can then get done quite quickly. Um, it's that whole thing of sort of a lot of marketing is spending probably two or three percent of your time of what you actually do has incremental results. So two for two or three percent of what you do will actually deliver 110% of what you can do, and it's allowing sort of those times of looking for how to get lucky, I think, is a is a big part of marketing of those big things that will come off. And essentially it is, it's it's those magic moments, it's getting lucky that will result in those multi-billion dollar campaigns that can come off for marketers.

Will Ockenden: 18:39

And you're right about um, you know, having a culture that enables creativity, it's it's a it's a permission to fail, isn't it? In effect, and a permission, you know, and a permission to we in fact, we did a podcast a little while ago about psychological safety in in the workplace, and that kind of crosses over to issues like that.

Chris Norton: 18:57

But yeah, this whole podcast's about failure. Well, what's some of the podcasts is about like failing and learning from it, isn't it? It's as if it's as if we'd planned it.

Will Ockenden: 19:08

Yeah, it's as if we scripted this.

Sam Benton: 19:11

I I I think I'm probably one of the most transformative ideas in business at the moment. It isn't AI, it isn't data, it isn't something that's just out there like that, it's something that's far more human. And I think it is a shared understanding, and that's uh that's something I I I wrote about last week. But it's literally it's creating a culture in a company that has a common language and a communal understanding of what they want to do and what they're trying to achieve. And that's something where everyone's scared of AI and everyone's scared of some elements of data and things like that. Where if you can really kind of give this shared voice to teams within an organization, that's what's really going to help them stand out. That's what's gonna create that good culture, that's what's gonna create an amazing culture, really, for them. To then be able to look at other areas and actually then have a safe space almost, I think. I think so many people now don't have that safe feeling when they're at work, when they're sort of uh on edge about so many things. Is AI coming from my job? Oh, is this not happening? Is this happening? And it's I think yeah, that is such a uh a pivotal point that people aren't focusing on enough.

Will Ockenden: 20:20

So, how can we introduce that then, that kind of mindset? Um, you know, what practical steps would you encourage marketing teams listening to this to, you know, because when we talk about improving culture, it feels a bit woolly. Break it down for us.

Sam Benton: 20:35

Yeah, I mean, I think the first one is obviously understanding that the role of the marketer may have changed. It's definitely changed over the past 10 years or so. And I think there's sort of frameworks that you can use going back to behavioral science, there's probably behavioral frameworks that you can use sometimes externally, sometimes internally as well. It's one that we actually talk about quite a lot on the course. It's the scarf model uh of how you do things. So it's what is it? It's status, certainty, autonomy, uh, reciprocation, and fairness. So that's a framework that we sort of use and we encourage about a lot. So I mean I can go into it now, but sort of status is obviously how you make someone feel, what you do, how you speak to them, how you do anything like that. Certainty is obviously making someone feel quite comfortable, making sure that they are certain in what they can and can't do, what they're actually trying to achieve, everything like that. Autonomy is allowing someone that freedom, actually letting them run with something. I mean, you know, you always hear of those horrible micromanaged stories where you're sort of looking at someone and you hire them and you say, Cool, I need you to send me a report every hour. That's not trust, that's going to instill an awful culture there. Reciprocity is doing things back and forth. It's, I mean, that's pretty plain and simple. It's actually being cool, like the old I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine sort of thing. It's giving that sort of giving it back to them as well, like giving them something, giving them those not rewards per se, but sort of actually kind of being able to be there together and look at those things. It's not just an individual's game, it's a team game for it. And then fairness, obviously, fairness is you just want to treat people fairly, you want to treat them quite nicely. And that framework there, I can't remember I can't remember who actually it was um David Rock, who uh made the Scarf model. He's a Kiwi guy who now lives in New York and does it. Uh, but that framework is something that we teach, it's something that you can use when you actually do marketing campaigns, but it's something that's also pivotal for that internal culture of how you can shape a team and really inspire them for success as well. You're listening to the Embracing Marketing Mistakes podcast.

Chris Norton: 22:40

So you you talked about failure then. So come on then. You're on you're on a podcast about mistakes. What what what failure have you made in your career that you have learned from that you think that our listeners could use? Because they've they've made loads. I want them to all send them in to us. I'd be interested to hear what what you've had what you've had to go through. Because you've worked in sales as well, so you'll have had some interesting picture scenarios and all sorts.

Sam Benton: 23:04

Oh yeah. Uh I yeah, I could probably uh I could probably give you you you two there. I mean, I think the biggest one for me, my mistake was when I was a bit younger, was just kind of thinking that I knew everything coming into this sort of stuff, just always being like, no, I I know this, I know what I'm doing, I don't need that help. And if someone ever asked, like, oh, can I help you on this? I almost viewed that as a sign of weakness. That it was sort of, oh, if you're asking me if I need help on that, then I'm clearly struggling and not doing the right thing. I think then as I sort of my career moved on a little bit, and obviously then I started working with Rory as well. You realize that even someone like Rory Sutherland, who's an absolute genius, never claims to know everything. The amount of books he still reads, and the amount of people that he asks for help and advice on everything. Someone that's mega famous, that's done this for 35 years will never admit to knowing everything. So I think that was a big thing for me, looking back and just being able to say, cool, asking for help or asking for advice in a company and from friends, from colleagues, from uh your uh people underneath you, even people in your team, really, like sort of people that report into you, going to them and asking for help. I think that is a bit a big thing, and owning that you're will you will be forever learning through your career. And if you're not forever learning, then you're probably not gonna go very far. Uh, so that's probably my overall one. Um, what would be the worst sales mistake I think I ever made? This is all scenario.

Chris Norton: 24:30

We've had all sorts. We've had we've had people turn up to the wrong offices, we've had um people go on the wrong date, we've had people hung over in the pitch scenarios, we've had people with decks with the wrong work with the wrong client name in the deck in the middle of the deck while they're doing the pitch.

Sam Benton: 24:44

Oh, that's that's probably quite a good one. I can say this now as well, is I remember one of my first big pitches I went in uh when I was doing more of the sales side with this was for uh Expedia, and it was a massive pitch. It was meant to be this whole thing, it probably would have done about 50% of our budget for the year if we'd won it, and we did end up well, we did end up winning it, which is quite nice. But after we had a bit of a setback, uh, because I also did quite a bit of work with Xperian, uh, which uh, as you know, the credit score sort of thing, and walked in to do this massive pitch in the Xpedia office with the Xperian logo plastered all over the deck that I was presenting, uh, which then had to be quickly joked about and tried to recover from, to which I didn't think I ever would. Uh, luckily, the guys that work there, I've now quite very good friends with them and worked with them for a few years. It eventually became the funny side. But I think now when we catch up and once you've had one or two beers, they do still ask if uh if they're if Experian will be receiving the invoice for the drinks that night and things like that. Uh so yeah, always uh always double checking the logos on decks is probably at least it wasn't a rival company. Oh, yeah, but you're going in and imagine going into that with booking.com flash and all over everything. I don't think they'd have ever forgiven me for that.

Chris Norton: 25:55

I always like when I get an email from somebody saying we'd love to work with insert random PR agencies' name, but it's not us because they've clearly just sent it to everybody and forgotten that they've not done they've not tailored that bit. I mean, yeah, but I would say well, what isn't one of the key things in creativity differentiation and um the fact that you won the pitch, was it the fact that you were memorable because you were the guy who fucked up and did the McSperi thing?

Will Ockenden: 26:19

I don't know.

Sam Benton: 26:23

Yeah, exactly. No, I mean I was I can claim now maybe that it was uh it was done on purpose to stand out. I like that quite a lot. I might use that when I tell that story from now on.

Will Ockenden: 26:32

So um let's I mean, Chris and I love the behavioural science side of things, and over the last few months we've we've had loads of loads of specialists in this field. Richard Shoton, Phil Up Agnew, we've had them both on the show. And it's I mean I could talk all day about it. So do you want to dive into another? I mean, pricing was fascinating to hear about. Let's talk about another area where brands could stand out more, perhaps linking with you know behavioural science.

Sam Benton: 27:00

Um an interesting one that I've been uh go doing quite a bit with with Rory recently is the whole thing of reverse benchmarking. Um, so it's a brilliant book. It's Will Ghidara, Unreasonable Hospitality. It is a fantastic read. I'd recommend it to anyone. If you've seen The Bear, uh he actually plays himself in the show and they're constantly reading the cousin Richie reads it, doesn't he? Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Will Ockenden: 27:22

I wanted you to read it actually off after watching The Bear.

Sam Benton: 27:25

If there are any The Bear fans out there, uh you go and you'll see actually, you'll realize that Will Ghidara, I think it's in sort of the end episode of season three, he actually does play himself in the show as well. Um but he's he kind of to give you the context, he has come up with this whole area of reverse benchmarking. Uh to give you the backstory, it was when uh he owns Eleven Madison Park, the restaurant, and it was I think they were ranked number 50th in the world or something like that.

Chris Norton: 27:54

Is that a book? Because I just read that I did the audio book, three quarters of it.

Sam Benton: 27:58

Unreasonable hospitality.

Chris Norton: 28:00

That's it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam Benton: 28:01

Yeah, it's on three quarters of the way through. It's really good though. It's it's incredible. I mean, he thinks about things differently. I mean, that that is behavioural science in action right there. So it for concepts of people haven't read it, it's he I'm pretty sure he was the 50th ranked restaurant or something like that, 11 Madison Park, and he wanted to take it to the number one ranked restaurant. So what he did was he took his team out to dinner at the number one restaurant at the time. Yeah. He said, I want you to make notes on uh on everything of the night. I think I got about halfway through the meal, uh, and he asked them, What are we what have you written down so far? What do you want to share? They started saying things like, Oh, the napkins are really nicely folded and the the flowers look really good. And he said, No, bugger that. I don't want to know what they're doing well, I want to know what they do shit. That's what I want to focus on. And I think there were two things. So, one was going back to the earlier conversation about wine. Uh, anyone that ordered beer was made to feel like a complete weirdo, and the coffee at the end of the meal was terrible. So, what he did when they went back to their restaurant was instantly he hired a beer semelaire. So, if anyone did order beer, they came around with this nice tasting menu to pair beers with the food choice and everything like that, and then hired a coffee semelier as well. So, at the end of the meal, they were, oh, we've got Italian or French or Yemini-sort of roasted beans or whatever it was that they can really geek out on coffee at the end of the meal. So, that was what he did. He was sort of I want to focus on not because it's a benchmarking, I want to reverse benchmark. I want to know what they do really badly and how we can do that really well. And I think that is a massive thing for marketing and brands and everything now. Because I think it's almost you look at what can your competitors, what can they do? What could they feasibly do, but then not doing to be able to enhance that experience. And if you look at something they do poorly then, but they could be making it better, but for whatever reason they're choosing not to, if that's something you can then do, that's gonna make yourself stand out so much more.

Chris Norton: 30:00

Yeah, it's brilliant. I was actually thinking of the beer when you were talking about beer before that that book for the because you were saying that they were whipping away the wine menu and they were, you know, they're a bit snooty about it. I was actually thinking about that book because yeah, the the beer sommelier was a completely new thing, because beer in the US wasn't is not uh in the UK, it's obviously slightly different. We've got different types of beers uh compared to them over there. Uh but the coffee thing really surprised me because they eat they went all in on coffee, and you'd think in America that they would be all in on coffee anyway, wouldn't you? You'd think that that rather than just tea and coffee, here you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam Benton: 30:37

That's it's I mean, there's there's so many other things like that that have do something amazing. So, I mean, I'd the uh the Moxie hotel chain is another good example of that. Um, not sure if you've ever stayed in a moxie. Um, but they're their rooms are nothing brilliant, it's a pre-standard room. I mean, they they are good, they've got a good TV, they've got good Wi-Fi, but the room's nothing special. But what they do really well is they're they they're sort of shared space downstairs. They have a 24-hour barista and a 24 hour cocktail maker down there, and it's sort of like a we work sort of vibe. So that's something I mean every hotel you've ever gone to, say your flights at 7 pm at night, but you have to check out at 11. You then end up sort of sitting around in the waiting room feeling a bit like someone that's homeless, that you just kind of don't really have anywhere to go. All we all do it. You can all sit there and you're like, oh well I'll load my suitcases somewhere and I'll go and see that statue that I didn't want to see anyway, but now I have to fill the time. But the way that they've done it to sort of set this space up is it's amazing because then that way, if ever I go and I need to work or something like that, I wouldn't want to stay in a Moxie hotel. And it's just something that other people, other hotels never put an emphasis on that has now been uh exponential value for them, really.

Chris Norton: 31:50

That book is basically marginal gains in a in a re in the restaurant industry. But what I got from when I was listening to it is the fact that he was so like I mean he admits he's nearly a geek. He's like absolutely geek obsessed, and people have to be that work for him obsessed with what they're doing. That which was it's a real it's like a passion, and it was it because that's why I I thought it was so fascinating for marketing because to to be so obsessed with the marginal gains that you can make, like down to the coffee, the napkins, the like, and not just focusing on oh comparing wines and comparing the ghe things. It's like when you get look using the hotel analogy, it's like most people when you go to a hotel, the things that they look at are checkout time, uh, how good is the bed, and is the shower really nice? Apparently, the things that you remember. Oh, the breakfast as well, apparently, is the if the if they're wrong, people never stay there again. But they're the basics that they want to get right first.

Sam Benton: 32:47

Oh, yeah, there's a then I mean the breakfast thing is is insane as well. I mean, how many times do you go on holiday and you ask, oh, what time does the breakfast end? And they say, Oh, it ends at 8.30. Well, why the why the fuck does it end at 8.30 for a breakfast when you're on holiday? Whoever wants to wake up before 9 a.m. if they're going away for a week and they're in Tenerife or something like that. Who whoever wants that? There's one hotel, I can't remember why I stayed, but I said, What time does the breakfast end? And they said it ends at midday. I was like, perfect. Anytime I ever come back, I will make sure to stay in this hotel because that means I never have to wake up early just to eat.

Chris Norton: 33:18

Maybe a break is the maybe a breakfast at 8:30 if you've going to Ibiza for a clubbing weekend, you come back after your breakfast when I get to bed to that.

Will Ockenden: 33:26

Go back and go straight to breakfast and then go to bed for the day. Yeah. Did um am I right in saying Will Cadara pioneered that kind of surprise and delight technique when he'd train his um waiting staff to listen in to conversations and they do it in the bear, don't they? When somebody says, I I've I'm in Chicago, but I've not had a chance for a deep pan Chicago pizza, and and the waiters run out, do a Michelin-starred um, you know, Chicago pizza and present it as a leaving gift. I mean, that and that's absolutely something um marketers can learn from as well, isn't it? That idea of kind of exceeding expectation and surprising and delighting.

Sam Benton: 34:03

Yeah, exactly. It's the it's the element of, I mean, it goes back to the scarf, it's almost an element of status as well. I mean, if you can listen into that conversation there and so you've heard that, the level of status they feel, if you say, Oh, I heard that you'd never had this, and because you're only here once and we want to make you feel so good, we managed to put this together for you. That's something that they will never ever forget because you've made their status feel so important to them. It's like it's a weird thing whenever you get called sir or someone you check in, someone they call you Mr. Benson. It's instantly you feel, oh, uh, you've got more status than this, then this is they're gonna be Sam.

Will Ockenden: 34:38

It's a weird thing that trips in your tricks in your head. Well, it's like the prestige of the uh you know, when you go for a kebab and you um and you get a handshake from the kebab shop owner.

Chris Norton: 34:48

I think I think what Sam, I think what we'll done there is compar is is show you the where the sort of level we're aiming at here.

Will Ockenden: 34:56

Or you get a nod from the landlord in the pub or whatever it is, but um Yeah, yeah, I entirely agree.

Chris Norton: 35:01

I like it one coffee house. You remember your order before that you're even saying it. That's like a nice touch, I always think.

Will Ockenden: 35:08

That listening in though, it's such a fine line between really creepy and adding loads of value, isn't it? So and I'd never I don't think I'd ever attempt that.

Sam Benton: 35:15

Yeah, it does need to be done well. I the other story on the status thing as well. There's this one hotel that uh they found that they had really, really elegant slippers in all of the rooms, and it was costing them an absolute fortune. And this is a uh quite a good thing for both finance and marketing, really. It was costing them an absolute fortune in having to replace them because even if no one had ever actually opened them, you still had to replace them every time, other than just in health reasons, I guess. So, what they did was they stopped putting the slippers in the room, and there was a note that said, if you do want slippers, cool down and we'll bring them up. And when they brought them up, they'd then sort of stitched in your initials into the slippers and they brought them up and it just elevated their status so much more by saying, Here you go. And it cost them a hell of a lot less than replacing the slippers every time because probably one in ten people would actually phone down for them. But then that's something that instantly it's it's a status elevation, it's those small incremental things that you can do differently to make yourself stand out that just have exponential results and make someone really kind of fall in love with your with your story or your company or your brand or whatever it is.

Will Ockenden: 36:20

Yeah, um the um the marketer and author and podcaster um Jay Bear talks about that as as being a talk trigger, doesn't he? Um which is the idea that you know the best organizations have these talk triggers that that drive this genuine kind of word of mouth. And the other the other example which I experienced the other day, actually, I can't remember the hotel chain, but I went to a I went to stay in a Hilton and they give you like a warm cookie on check-in.

Chris Norton: 36:44

Oh yeah. You know, that then becomes the double tree hotel.

Will Ockenden: 36:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's just brilliant and it's cheap, and it's I've told ten people about it, and and and those talk triggers are absolutely brilliant. And every brand, I think, no matter who you are, have has got the opportunity to develop a talk trigger.

Chris Norton: 37:01

Or a welcome drink. A welcome drink, and you'll always make you, you know, it's a good way to do it. Because you're always a little bit stressed, even when you've come off a flight or whatever, and you go to a hotel, you've got a welcome drink. Depends what sort of you know trip it is, but yeah, that's always a nice touch.

Sam Benton: 37:15

The the yeah, exactly. I mean the the double tree cookie. I mean, I remember speaking to them about that, and uh that their CFO absolutely hates that cookie idea. They absolutely despise it because there is no possible way that you can do any sort of ROI on the amount of money that they spend on the little cookie ovens and the cookies they give away. But for a marketer, if you took that away, or if you're anyone else, you'd say, no, you could never get rid of that. Don't care if you can't prove the ROI. It's literally that is a reason of word of mouth. That is a reason that someone would go and stay there again. But for a finance person, it's an absolute nightmare.

Chris Norton: 37:51

But for every marketer listening to this, like literally, there'll be hundreds of marketers listening to this thinking they're obsessed with the ROI of everything. We always talk about this, like everybody's obsessed that we've made ourselves, digital marketers particularly, obsessed with clicks and ROI of everything. Like going right back to what is the ROI of a bloody billboard? Do you know what I mean? It's like we've not everything needs an ROI, and if it's got some sort of talking point, that's essentially what marketing often is. So, like the fact that people are word of mouth talking about double tree, like we've just given them there. What was that? Two, three minutes on double tree. Hello, Brett. Can we have a free stay, please, and a couple of free cookies? You know what I mean?

Sam Benton: 38:29

Yeah, I mean, it's it's the bizarre line that you sometimes hear of what what's the ROI on this brand awareness piece? That's the most stupid line I think I've ever heard. What is the ROI on brand awareness? You're not doing it for an ROI, you're doing it to be able to get your to get your brand out there. That's literally what it is. But I think the there is an over-emphasis now on sort of that performance marketing. It's that quantity over quality, it's those clicks, it's those measurements, it's everything there. Where that's not the that's not the double tree cookie, that's not the slippers coming out, that's not the extended breakfast. Those are the things that will really be able to sort of make a difference, and that's all behavioral science in play, really.

Chris Norton: 39:06

Yeah, it's short termism, isn't it? Like all the performance click, you know, performance ROI, all that stuff is great, but it's very short term. It's not long term. I was speaking to one of our ex-employees uh a couple of weeks ago, still friends and they've gone to somewhere else to specialise in paid strategy, and they're working for a huge global, well-known beauty brand, right? They're spending 200 grand a month on paid social, and they're they've not they're not really getting it, it's just for brand awareness. That's all they're doing it for is to get their products in front of this particular product and they're spending hundreds of thousands a month, no ROI. The reason is brand awareness, so people know who it is and what it's about. So I thought I just think the whole world is it's starting to get flipped on its head again, back to where what it used to be.

Sam Benton: 39:54

Yeah, no, I I totally agree with you, and I think we're going one beyond that as well. I mean, there's this whole concept of sort of herd behavior and herd mentality. Uh we we go into it on the course as well. It's, I mean, it kind of falls into Babyliscience. There's a company that I do a lot of work with called Herdify, they essentially put it into action as well. It is essentially that people, as humans, at your core, you are a herd species. You follow the crowd, you do what others do. It's why after I was playing paddle, and I usually would have a beer afterwards, but the 10 people I'd had a beer with uh all ordered a Guinness Zero. So I had a Guinness Zero as well. I've never had a Guinness Zero and I probably never will again. Uh, but they because everyone else was ordering it, you follow the crowd, you follow the herd. I think that's when sort of brand and marketing come into play of sort of what can you do, whether it's localization or the actual branding or the design of something, what can you do to make it stand out that other people go, oh, okay, I need to be involved with that. It's sort of that it's word of mouth, it's that referral element, but almost at a larger scale. Because in our core, we want to fit in, we want to deal with other people, we do follow that, and that is the whole thing of herd mentality. We're a herd, we're a herd species. That that's that that that is what humans are. You're listening to the Embracing Marketing Mistakes podcast.

Will Ockenden: 41:16

This is fascinating, and I loved I love the examples, and I you know it's it's all about kind of thinking differently and and anything to do with behavioral science, I think we find eminently uh fascinating. Um so the Mad Masters sounds like a great investment to me. Um, where can people find out more about it and how can they connect with you, Sam?

Sam Benton: 41:38

Yeah, uh I mean they can go to uh our website madfestlondon.com slash masters, they'll find everything on there. Uh, you can download info packs. Uh you can get in touch with me. It's Sam at madfestlondon.com as well. If you want to drop me a line directly, we can we can chat through up from there and and be able to talk about uh exactly what's involved uh and get you on from there.

Will Ockenden: 41:59

And when do the cut is is there certain kind of intakes and certain uh time periods when when that starts then?

Sam Benton: 42:05

Yeah, so we run three intakes a year. Uh so then our upcoming one will start on the 8th of December. As it's online and on demand, people always say, why don't you just do it? No, that's as soon as they pay, they can start straight away. But again, it's they literally we were talking about then her species. We do intakes so people feel like they're part of a community and they can go through it with other people. They can connect with the maybe it's they're they're a marketing manager from Spec Savers and they can connect with a marketing manager at Nestlé, for example, just to be able to. They're probably going through very similar problems and challenges and things that they want to explore, so you can almost kind of go through the course and connect and manage and chat with each other, which creates a really nice feel to it all as well.

Chris Norton: 42:47

What what's one uh I've got a question for you? What's one question that we've not asked you about behavioural science that we should have done?

Sam Benton: 42:56

Ooh. Who to trust? Who would who is who are the biggest behavioural scientists, I would say, and who people should actually go and listen to and learn from. Uh, I will be uh I'll be quite selfish here and say Rory Sutherland going to the course. Uh, but the others that you kind of want to would want to learn from, there's Richard Shoton as well, a brilliant behavioural scientist, you've got Robert Caldini as well, you've got Dan Arielli, who's uh US-based, I think he's from uh Yale University. But essentially, I like to call those four as like the four horsemen of behavioral science. Um, and follow them on LinkedIn, subscribe to their articles on campaign or the drum or whatever it is.

Chris Norton: 43:37

We had Richard on the show a few weeks ago, and he's he's just released a hat he's released a new book as well, hasn't he? We show him I need actually we've got his other two books, but I need to check it. We'll probably have to game back on at some point because he is brilliant. I've got another question, actually, uh Sam. Is there ever a question that Rory can't answer?

Sam Benton: 43:53

No, no, definitely not. I mean, he Rory is He's amazing, he is really brilliant. I do, I've had a couple of people ask me before, sort of like when he's off air, what's he like? And he is such a kind and amazing guy. For uh to give you a story of him. Uh, we were in America, we were in Seattle doing a bit of work earlier in the year, and we happened to be there for my birthday. Uh, and he found out it was my birthday, and he may went out, he got breakfast sorted, he bought me a couple of birthday presents, took me out to lunch, and just spent the whole day with me on my birthday, which was really, really nice because we were there for work. Uh, and he was just like genuinely happy to to be there, and he's a really nice guy to be around. Uh, so he is is absolutely brilliant, and any question you ever ask him, he will always be able to answer. And I'm sure there will always he will answer the question, but he will also tell you three stories about that question as well to really hit home the message. And that's what I think that's what people love because he's so generous with his time as well, and we'll actually go into that detail.

Chris Norton: 44:58

Yeah, I don't know how I don't know how he's got so much bloody time to do so many bloody interviews, he's all he's he's on everything.

Sam Benton: 45:04

Yeah, he he's definitely everywhere. He is definitely everywhere, and it's good, it's good. I mean, he's he's such a brilliant person to laugh.

Chris Norton: 45:10

I'm just glad you've met him because I actually thought he was an omnipresent AI and he's just not really a real person, he's just everywhere, you know what I mean?

Sam Benton: 45:16

He's on a there's a boy there, Jeff who's um the uh uh called Mikey, who's uh he started on TikTok and started um doing impressions of Rory on TikTok, and they were so spot on. I can't remember the exact TikTok channel, but he was uh uh he was doing these impersonations and it was very, very funny. And then uh we went to a dental conference weirdly. Uh there's heaps of dentists now doing Mad Masters, which is I I absolutely love. It's an area that we we can definitely do a lot more in in sort of the medical sector. Uh, but they had hired the impressionist for the day at the event that Rory and I were at as well. So we'd just finished recording a live podcast, and the person that was hosting the day then said, Rory, we've actually got the other Rory here as well. Every guy was dressed as Rory and walked down the stairs doing the same voice, and it was sort of Rory on Rory, and it was a very, very weird thing to witness.

Chris Norton: 46:11

It's brilliant. Um the fact he's a minor celebrate, like he's a celebrity now, he's on TikTok. It's TikTok that smashed it, isn't it? Really?

Sam Benton: 46:18

Um that was that absolutely blew up his his fame. Uh probably about 18 months ago now. That rise to to TikTok stardom, it was just incredible. I mean, I still get friends now that sort of obviously know we work together, and just say, Can you do why every single time? He's all over my TikTok fee. They have they're not in the marketing space, then they have nothing to do with this world, but they just see him absolutely everywhere.

Chris Norton: 46:44

Yeah.

Sam Benton: 46:45

Um, I remember we were coming out of, I think it was Leeds train station, and there was a guy walking into the station with headphones on, and he saw us, and we may saw Rory coming out, and he looked like he was having some sort of existential crisis. He we couldn't really figure out what was going on. That was probably he managed to come out and he said, I'm listening to Rory's audiobook. I've just walked past and seen him appear, and he couldn't figure out if he was hallucinating or what was going on.

Chris Norton: 47:13

Told you he's an omnipresent AI. He's every he Rory is everywhere. Rory's coming to he's coming to he's coming to you from wherever. Yeah. Yeah. Well, honestly, that's really great. And so you've you've um you've been on the show now, um, and you've you've you know what the format is. If you were us, who's the next person that you'd have on this show and why?

Sam Benton: 47:34

The next person I would have on this show. Uh I would like I'd like to try and get you Rory, um, which would be good. Um someone else that uh and Will Gardner. Uh if you're looking for a marketing perspective, I'd say Rachel Carone, uh, former CMO marketing director of Starling Bank. Uh I do a bit of work with her now. She's absolutely incredible in terms of talking about culture, how the role of the marketer has changed, uh, and that success story of how to take Starling Bank and what from what they did to where they were. So I yeah, I would recommend Rachel Curone. She is she's absolutely incredible in this space.

Will Ockenden: 48:11

Oh, incredible. Oh that's great. Thanks for that, Sam. That's excellent.