Chris Norton: 1:04

She handed over a long list of headline options, thinking quantity would impress. Instead, the client picked the weakest line and printed it on the Body Shock catalogue for six long months. Two decades later, she slipped again. One soft, forgettable line she knew that she shouldn't include, and it ended up on billboards all across London. This is the story of how one of Britain's most respected brand and coffee specialists learned the hard way that too many options can sync good quality creative. In this episode, she breaks down how it happens, why it happens, and how she stopped it happening to the brands that she works with today. Today's guest is the brilliant Vikki Ross, trusted by Sky Virgin in Expedia, and she's lifting the lid on the mistakes that shaped her craft, the truth about bland copy, the impact of AI on creativity, and the hidden pressures behind presenting works to stakeholders. So if you've ever watched a client choose the wrong idea and felt like a project is drifting into the dull middle, or wondered how top writers keep their edge, this conversation is going to really be useful and it will hit home hopefully. Welcome to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the show that helps you grow quicker all by learning from the errors of the world's top marketeers they wish that they could undo. I'm Chris Norton and my aim is to help you, the senior marketer, get sharper, faster, and avoid the traps that quietly cost brands time, budget, and momentum. Today, Vikki breaks down the moment a single weak line taught her to change the way that she presents copy. Why clients always seem to default to the safest option, and how she protects the creative process in a world obsessed with speed and AI. You'll hear how she builds brand voices for global companies, how she deals with imposter syndrome, and the mindset that lets her push back without damaging those all-important client relationships. You're also going to learn how to stop good ideas being watered down, how to guide clients to stronger creative decisions, and how to keep originality alive when the pressure is on. Let's get into the conversation and show you how to avoid the mistakes that still haunt even the best in the industry. So let's get into the conversation. This is my conversation with Vikki Ross. Enjoy. Welcome to the show, Vicki Ross. How are you doing?

Vikki Ross: 3:29

I'm good, thank you, Chris Norton. How are you?

Chris Norton: 3:32

Both using our full names. Um, yeah, I'm great. Um thanks for coming on the show. Um I've wanted to get you on for several years. I followed you on Twitter for a long time, but you gave up Twitter. And the reason why I liked you on Twitter is you used to point out a lot of the um copywriting, um what should we call them? Copywriting errors or things that look bland. Do you and now you've moved that to LinkedIn, haven't you, where you're sharing all the um sort of bland copywriting? Because the world of copywriting, I think, is is the I mean you'll be sick of talking about AI because it's boring in the world of copywriting, and I'm with you, and I think everybody that listens to the show will be saying, um, yes, we've talked about AI and copyright, copy generation, it's nowhere near as good as the best copywriters, of which I class you as. So do you want to explain a bit about what it's like to be a copywriter in 2025 and how it's sort of changed from the world of Twitter to to LinkedIn and how you how you approach sharing stuff online now?

Vikki Ross: 4:35

Gosh, okay. I'm not very good with um multiple part questions. So let's see how much I can remember of what you asked and how and if I answer all of the points. Um so yes, I left Twitter um because it just became a place that it wasn't fun to hang around. And I did love hanging around on Twitter, but every time I opened it, there was some bot trying to um, I don't know, attack me or have sex with me or something, and I just didn't want any of that. Um and um yes, I have pointed out copy errors and bland branding, um, but that's not all I do. I'm very celebratory and supportive of copywriters and copywriting too. And um I would never criticize anything that um I don't think I could do myself because that's just not right. And I know lots of people do do things like that. Like as soon as you see a post on LinkedIn that says something like, This is a masterclass in copywriting, it probably isn't, it's just someone um trying to attract attention and get engagement. Um and yeah, on the bland stuff, um so I created something with Paul Meller called the bland book, and it was it was basically what a lot of brand guidelines look like, which is really bland and uh describing a brand voice as you know the old human-friendly and honest, which obviously doesn't differentiate one brand from another. So the bland book was just to show brands this is what it looks like when you all do the same thing. And um I specialise in branding and creating a voice for brands, so I felt very much in a safe space to be able to criticize, knowing full well that I could um help people if they said, Well, come on then, like you've criticized something, but um what would you do about it then? Um and then I think you mentioned AI and you said we won't talk about it because it's boring, but I just want to reiterate it is pretty boring. I mean, I have to give the caveat like everyone does, like it's great for some things, um, it's not great for all things. Um I have been I've been playing with it a lot more recently. Like I I didn't for a while because I just didn't want to know, and then I thought, come on, you can't ignore it, it's not gonna go away. Um, and so I created, I've started this collection of um ads under the uh collection name Lines I don't reckon AI could write. And I thought I need to put that to the test. I can't keep putting stuff out because one day I reckon I'll get caught out. And so I've been playing around with it. And like firstly, it takes so long to get anywhere with it. Like you have to prompt and prompt and prompt. And I know somebody listening up might think, well, she's not prompting it right, or you need to know the right prompt. But um, as Thomas Kemene says, and I always quote him because I just love this: if you know the right prompt, then you've already cracked the brief, so you don't need AI to then execute it. But I'll just give you one example um of one I've tested again or I've tried to get Chat GPT to write, and that is Apple's brilliant light years ahead line when um they launched the MacBook Air. And it was light full stop, years ahead. Um so it was two sentences, but it could be read as one and it could be read as two, and it was just, you know, uh copywriting mastery. Um and the closest so far, I'm gonna keep trying, but the closest I've got to it so far with Chat GPT, and that is I had to end up feeding it light years ahead and asking if it could play with that. It said something like the new MacBook Air is light years ahead and leaves leaves stars in a blur or something. And I mean, obviously that's that's not good. I mean it's not even not good enough, it's rubbish.

Chris Norton: 8:28

Yeah, I'm totally with you. And I find like that it's got better, it's got better, it's getting better. And as we record, just last week they've launched 5.1, which is a I think an incremental improvement on number five. But what I've found interesting is I use it a lot, I do use AI a lot. I use AI on an analytical basis. So like I'll analyze, I do use it for the deep research functions. I don't really use it for the generative stuff because I think as you like as you yourself, being a wordsmith, I just think it's shit. Uh but I do think it can be it can be better. Um and and we didn't say we were to talk about this, but it is the the thing that I've found with it is that there's the industry, the industry of copywriting, and the industry of poor like copywriting. So like, you know, there's there was a I would say that there is a there was an industry of like um where people would just fill the internet with content online, you know, blogs and uh product pages and stuff like that, which is not what you do. I get and you're you're you're much in a in a in a different space. I think what AI is doing is getting rid of that, and means that the bet the better people, the better quality work, like we the Apple example you've just given, or a Nike, or there's so many straplines that you can think of that are brilliant. Although I believe the Nike one came off last it was a last minute thing just before they went to a meeting, which is a classic. One of the what's uh the guy on LinkedIn who does all the comedy stuff, Rob. He I think he's just done a skit where he's going like, um, we haven't finished the creative, but we you know, that that's what it is, which is that we've all been in a pitch situation where we just hope for the best.

Vikki Ross: 10:10

That example that you're giving is a great rationale for not using AI, or or maybe not rationale, it's not the right word. So I by the way, I'm much better at words when I write them down rather than when I say them. Um but the things that come to us at the last minute or just inexplicably out of nowhere are often the things that just work, and we can't say why, it just does. And if we use AI to generate stuff like that, we lose the messy bit along the way that gets us to something special. And so I get people saying, Oh, but it helps us get to the line quicker, but I don't I love my job, I don't want to shorten it, and I don't want to um sacrifice any part of the process because as I say, so much of it can happen in between like you know, when you're drawing outside of the line sort of thing. Um I did just remember there was another point in your question of of a million points, and that was and it's tied to AI, and that was what's it like being a copywriter in 2025? And um it it's um it's amazing and it and it's not, I suppose. Um like I just said, I love my job. Um I've I've always felt so lucky to work with the brands that I work with, but it's really not nice um living in a time where, and this is this is with the um restrictions of what we're talking about, there's obviously horrible things going on in the world. So just for the context of our conversation only, it's really not nice um waking up almost every day to an industry publication headline screaming AI is gonna take our jobs, um, and especially copywriters' jobs, because what is that doing to all of us? And why aren't industry publications celebrating and supporting creatives and creativity rather than scaring everybody and thinking that um we're all gonna be out of a job soon? Because it's just it's not true. The noise is louder than the reality right now.

Chris Norton: 12:16

Yeah, we're in the as well I've said this before, we're in like we're right on the hype of the hype cycle. Yes, AI is amazing, there's some amazing things it does, but for people like you who are brilliant at copy, there's uh there's a few people I really respect on in terms of writing, and uh several people in PR, my the sector that I work in that that I respect on writing, they're far better writers than me. And but I do I do think that AI is like I would say level let's say when it's really great, it's gonna get a six. Whereas when you're really great, you're gonna get a 9.5, you know? Maybe you'll get a 10. Those tens are the ones that are kind of like you said before, you just can't explain why it's a 10, but it is. You know, they're just brilliant. Um I think spec savers nail it all the time, don't they? They whoever that they've got in their team, I mean, genius. Um absolutely, absolutely brilliant. But I don't I don't think AI is replacing the the brilliance of a of an excellent thought-through piece of piece of copy just yet. And I don't it's because it's that untangible, I think, um, that you can't really put your finger on the reason why it's brilliant.

Vikki Ross: 13:56

Yeah.

Chris Norton: 13:57

So why don't you take me back then? So I want to go through a little bit about your career to explain to the listeners what sort of stuff you do. So you have had some amazing jobs, so but first and foremost, you started in PR, didn't you?

Vikki Ross: 14:12

Uh yeah. I was thinking, did I? Um yes, I did for six weeks or four weeks. Um yes. Uh so you want me to start there? I'm just trying to think, I'm trying to remember. So um I I went to college to do A levels because I didn't know what else to do with myself, but I knew that I never wanted to go to university. So really I was just passing the time for two years and I didn't care if I'd pass my exams, which I didn't. Um, and then when I left uh college, I had to get a job, and I mean I wasn't skilled in anything and didn't have any grades, so I got reception and admin roles. Um, and in one of my receptionist jobs, I can't remember why, I just wasn't very good or interested in what I was doing, and I was sacked. And I called my best friend who worked at a PR agency, and I and uh I wanted to tell her, like, oh no, I've been sacked. And um this was before mobiles, so I was calling her desk, her landline on her desk, and her boss picked up and said she was off sick. Um and I said, Oh, don't worry, I was just calling her to say I've been sacked, I'll call her at home. And her boss said, Do you need work? And I said, Yeah. And she said, Well, we're preparing for um the Michael Jackson Blood on the Dance Floor album launch party, and I need someone to basically come in and lick stamps and stick envelopes down, which is exactly what I did for four weeks. So um, yes, I can't claim to have any PR experience. It was still admin but in a PR agency, yeah.

Chris Norton: 15:42

How very dare you! It was licking stamps and uh putting envelopes together was the uh was the role of the PR exec in the in the early uh late 1990s, early 2000s, which is when I started. I used at three o'clock at the my first job, I worked at a place in London, near Heathrow Airport, actually. We had a couple of offices in London, but this one was near Heathrow Airport, and at three o'clock every day, all the execs would have to go downstairs. There was like there was like 150 people who worked in this big PR agency, and then all the execs, it was your role as the graduates to go downstairs into the mail room. Do you remember that? The mail room and stand there and fold press releases and stick them into stick them through the the franking machine, they'd fly out the other end and land in the post bag, and we have to fill them up, and we all each had an individual job. That was an actual job. I mean, AI can have that one.

Vikki Ross: 16:33

Firstly, shout out to franking machines, how good were they? And secondly, I apologize, I take it back, and I'm just gonna uh go and update my LinkedIn profile as to my experience in a PR agency.

Chris Norton: 16:48

Extensive experience. And so then what uh after that, where did you go then? What did you do next? Because you've had you've had you've went for some amazing brands and copy.

Vikki Ross: 16:56

Yeah, so so that was only four or six weeks, as I say, I really can't remember. Um and then the the lady who ran the PR agency, she said, my husband um runs a direct marketing agency and he needs um uh he also needs an admin assistant. So I went there. Um and uh it doesn't exist anymore, but they created reader offers in the national press. And one day, like I knew that I wanted to write, I didn't know what copy was or a copywriter was. I just knew that I wanted to write the sexy adverts in the glossy magazines, and I didn't know the difference between editorial or feature articles or reader offers or ads, but as a direct marketing agency, they wrote reader offers uh in the national press. So I I was confident um I knew that I could write, um, I don't know where, like I just did well at English at school, but otherwise I've maybe coming across a bit cocky. Um so I asked if I could write a reader offer um and uh they could measure it because uh it was male order, uh, and it did well, so I got to write more. And uh funnily enough, actually, one of my clients was at the time was Ministry of Sound, and your episode that just came out this week with is it Christopher Mackay, he also worked with them. So funny that we're now talking today. Um so anyway, I ended up um becoming a copywriter. Um from there I I went to the body shop. Um yeah, there's there's a longer story, but we don't need to go into it all. But I ended up being a copywriter on the brand side of things, which is how I've ended up specialising in branding for the last 14 years. So I've been writing for about how old am I? I can't do maths. I've been writing for about 28 years and yeah, specialising in branding for 14, which means I create a brand's voice and then write the guidelines to accompany it so that people in the company or their agencies know how to execute it.

Chris Norton: 18:51

So if I was coming to you then, Vikki, and I was like, what what's the ideal piece of work that like if I work in marketing, what what am I hiring you to do for me? Because it I just to explain your pre-cause if someone hires us, they want you know brand awareness, PR, they want exposure. Some clients want to be on TV or in the trade press. That's what we do, but what what do you what do what is it that you would do for a client in marketing, for instance?

Vikki Ross: 19:16

Um typically a brand comes to me um to create their brand's voice. So it might be that they have an in-house uh creative team or an external agency that can only do the visual side of things and they don't have a writer. Um so I will work alongside them all to come up with a voice that um that is uh inspired by their brand positioning and also who they are as a brand and who their audience is and what their competitors are up to. Um and typically I spend sort of three to six months with a client just living and breathing what they're doing. Because I want to feel like I'm part of the team because I can't execute on behalf of a brand that I haven't worked at unless I feel like I am, you know, part of the furniture. Some of these people have worked at brands for decades and then they come to me and say, Can you create a voice? And um, I have to get up to speed really quickly. But yeah, then we'll typically spend three to six months together, which is really nice because I just yeah, it's really nice to be part of a team and understand where they're all coming from and where they're going. Um, and we'll have loads of meetings. So for example, um I created a new voice for Range Rover Defender Discovery in Jaguar last year, and how that started was calls, um, it was mostly remotely. So calls with uh maybe about 100 people in the end over a period of six weeks where I got to know so many different parts of the business. It was amazing. It's like I'm really nosy and I love going behind the scenes of a brand. I it's such an honour, I find. Um, so for everybody to be taking me round like their areas was just um really important. Um and it also means that the people I'm talking to feel like they're part of the process and that they fed into creating the voice, which is um it really helps when you come to roll out a voice because if people feel like they've been part of it, then they want to see it through and and actually celebrate it. Yeah. Um so yeah, I always um I've never been like a hierarchical person. I just I like to work alongside people and I like people to feel like they're seen and and celebrated too. So um I always think of my work as a collaboration rather than I'm an independent consultant, I'll take the brief, I'll go away and do something, and I'll come back and present it back at you, and good luck. I'm on to the next one. Like I I don't work like that. I I'm I maybe stick around for longer than people want me to.

Chris Norton: 21:49

Yeah. I like the fact that you you think you're like getting you're becoming considered, you take on board the different different sort of bits of the business to try and absorb what the brand's all about. Because that could that can be tough sometimes. You get sent a brief, and often people say the brief that you're given isn't the brief, it's the brief inside the brief. Or or the brief, not in the brief, but in the questions outside of the brief. So it's just like the Well, yeah.

Vikki Ross: 22:15

So I so I'll obviously get a brief and I'll read it and I'll be like, that's great. So I know what you want to do, but I need you to send me or tell me everything, even the things that you don't think are interesting or important. I'll find something in there that is. Um and so yeah, doing the like hundred odd calls with people around Jaguar Land Rover, um, there was just something that somebody said in each call that fed into what I was doing. Also, I mean, I'm I'm giving a uh well, I was gonna say an extreme example of such a big global brand, but I I pretty much only work with big global brands, but they know what they're doing. I mean, they came to me when they had four years of strategy behind them, so all I needed to do was put a voice to the strategy that they already had. Um, but then I did a similar job with them this year when they rebranded from Jaguar Land Rover to JLR. So then I did the corporate voice for them, and again was on loads of calls with people around the business, and actually every single call, I like I can't emphasize enough, every single call the person I spoke to said the same word. It it was the same word I kept hearing all the way along as to what they thought their voice should be. So then I was in no doubt that that was what their voice would be, and I kind of felt like I hadn't done the work myself because they'd given it to me. But what a dream to work for a massive brand like that who know who they are and are so confident about who they are. It meant that the result was, you know, gonna mean something to everybody.

Chris Norton: 23:47

So do you do you I mean the focus to to pull that out, is that not terrifying? But you start with a br brief and you don't know anything about it, and then you've got to you've got to sort of let it I mean, people have talked about where you let it fester and you and then suddenly it pops. Is that how it is with you? Like you what they call it, people some people call it downloading, don't they creatives? You know, you you just sort of look at a brief, think, think, think, and then you when you stop thinking about it, out it pops. Is it is it like that or not?

Vikki Ross: 24:16

Yes and no. Firstly, is it not terrifying? Yes, it's terrifying. I have been doing this a long time now, and I I think it's because I love what I do. Every time a brand approaches me, and I'm really fortunate to be able to say that I've never gone after work or pitched for anything, I've always been approached. And every time a brand comes to me and we have a call or a meeting, I come home or get off the call, and I think, I can't believe they want me to do this. So um I go through the excitement phase and then I go, oh, but now I have to do it. Yeah, and even though I've done this for so many years and for so many brands, and I've always had incredible feedback and and I've got all the work I've got through word of mouth because people are always happy. I still think, and I think every creative does this, unless they're a you know psychopath, I just think, I don't know how to do it. I I am I gonna be able to do it this time. Um and so then obviously I have to get on with it. And to your second um point, um, do I let it fester? I used to I used to work like a machine. I I've always worked hard and I used to work as a freelancer seven days a week, all hours. I just loved my job. I didn't know when the next project was going to come, so I said yes to everything. In more recent years with these really big projects, like you can imagine writing a voice for four different vehicles, um, for example, is a big job. Um, I've learned to trust the process more, and that has meant I've enjoyed the process more and my work is better for it as a result. And so what that is, is again, using the same examples, sorry if this is repetitive and boring, but with Jaguar Land Rover, I did all the calls, and then I gave myself two weeks before I I told them I'd come back to them within two weeks with a proposal, and in that two weeks I'd already had all the information it had gone in. I guess I prompted myself if we want to go back to the AR. I'd prompted myself and then I got on with my life. And I went out and I went swimming and I went walking and I watched TV and did all the things that I love to do. And in all of that time, my subconscious was doing the work. And this is what I love about the creative process is that your creativity isn't an occupation, it's a preoccupation. You can't turn off your brain. And when it's got lots of information in there, it's always thinking about it and piecing it together and you know, giving each part different elements to then explore. It drives my husband mad because it means that I'm always mid-conversation. Wait, I just need to write that down. Or, you know, we're walking down the road, wait, I need to just put a note in my phone because ideas are coming. And it feels like I'm not really doing the work when it's like that. Um, but it means that I can really sit with ideas and you know, I could talk myself in and out of them. And there's a Rick Rubin, I can't remember if he said it on on social media or if he put it in his amazing book, uh, The Creative Act. It was something like, um, we're a different person from when we start the work to when we come back to it. And it made me think that's so true, and it's why we need more time in the creative process, because uh copyright, I think any copywriter could tell you this. We could come up with a really good line by end of day, which is often a deadline we're given in copywriting, not creating brand voices, obviously. Um, but the next day we'll come up with something much better. Um, so the more time we have to sit with something, um, the better the work will be.

Chris Norton: 27:54

Yeah, because I'd I've I've got a triangle, a client triangle, right? Which is quality, time, cost. Right? And clients clients want all three, but really, when you get a briefing and it's like you've got one for Friday, uh, you know, you've got what you've got to do it by Friday, then obviously if you your quality and your um the cost is going to go up and the quality is gonna go down because the the times, you know, so each element affects it. Um and I think you're right, the more time you've got, the better the result at the at the end of it. Especially with create a lot of creatives are quite perfectionists as well. They keep thinking and thinking and thinking.

Vikki Ross: 28:36

Oh, yeah.

Chris Norton: 28:36

Like it must be, isn't it? Have you ever done then have you ever done that then where you've done something and then it's gone out, and then you've gone shit, and at least thought about something else that would have made it even better.

Vikki Ross: 28:46

Always. Always. And I always stay in touch with my clients and I'm really honest about how I work and what I'm thinking and feeling. Um, and so if it if the deadline's pass and I've already provided something, but I then think of something else, I'll always get in touch with them and say, Is it too late? Um, because I've just thought of this. Um or even if it's like months later, um if I see something they've written and I'm just sort of checking in on how they're executing the voice, I'll I'll get back in touch and say, Oh, like that was working or that wasn't working, or I think you could have done it like this. But yeah, the worst, well it's not the worst, but the worst is when you see your copy go live and the clients changed it. But um the second worst is when you have a better idea after it's gone. But just on that time thing, um it is different when I'm working with brands to create their voice because often those projects don't have a deadline. It's um it's something that can run on and and can and can keep going until we've nailed it and got it right. Um apart from uh I don't know when there is when there is uh projects that are time dependent. Like I'm I'm working with Formula E at the moment and they wanted a new voice before the season started. So that was a time-dependent one. But otherwise, we can often be working together, why I said three to six months, because um unless they're gonna go out with a great big press release, which is where you would come in, um, to say we've rebranded and this is our new everything. Um yeah, it's something that can ramble on in the background while they're still working on their, you know, above the line stuff.

Chris Norton: 30:21

Yeah. Um you were almost nearly nearly, but you it didn't happen, the voice of Harry Potter, weren't you?

Vikki Ross: 30:28

You have done your research. Gosh. Um no, uh uh not quite.

Chris Norton: 30:33

Um, it's not that good of research then.

Vikki Ross: 30:37

They already had their voice, they didn't come to me for that. They came to me to write for the launch of I think it was Harry Potter World or something. Um, but I said no, and and by the way, because I keep talking about cars, I should say that I do mostly work with entertainment brands. So I was at Sky um as head of copy for a long time, and then um more recently I've worked with IMAX and Disney Plus and BAFTA uh and Britbox. So um the Harry Potter thing isn't completely out of left field, that is because of my ENS experience. Um, but I said no, because Harry Potter means a lot to a lot of people, and I don't know anything about it. I've never read it, I've never watched it, and I don't believe in winging things um because it's not fair on the fans. Like I really respect the audience that I'm writing to on behalf of a brand, and I think they deserve someone that lives in. Breathe something that they live and breathe.

Chris Norton: 31:35

So you've never played Quidditch then?

Vikki Ross: 31:38

No, I don't know what that is.

Chris Norton: 31:41

There's the clip right there. Um well I mean that is why I asked you the question because um I thought it shows your integrity as a copywriter, and I think that will shine through to our marketing listeners who are like, that's what you want. You want someone who's because that's it's kind of what what we're like when we get a brief in. I get I've had three today, and I'll refuse loads where I don't even pitch for a lot of stuff. I'll just say, look, I'm sorry when it's not for us. Uh or I'll say we don't think we could this is ideal for us. Because it being honest up front, and I think is people respect that a bit of integrity at the beginning is is is good. And the fact that you turned it down for somebody who does know what Kridditch is is is probably is a is a great is a is a is a great quality that I liked. So I wanted you to share that story.

Vikki Ross: 32:30

Thank you, but I don't think anyone would win in a scenario where you try and muddle through. I don't I don't think it's fair to anybody, and then the relationship would fall down. So yeah, it doesn't help anyone. I also it I do turn down a lot of work when I don't think I can do it justice because I I believe, you know, I'm really passionate about what I do, and that brands uh have this incredible some brands have an amazing legacy that deserve being protected. And I think if um if there's somebody else that's going to be better at doing that, then I will always say so. And it's really funny how many um brands, when I tell them that I won't work with them or I suggest someone I think would be better, it's funny how surprised they are because I think I mean I I'm not I guess I'm not really a freelancer, I'm a consultant, but freelancers have a reputation, I think, for just taking any work because there's this impression that we're all like, you know, poor and starving and desperate for work and money. Um and yeah, people are surprised when I turn work down.

Chris Norton: 33:33

Yeah, but then I've read quotes from you before. I remember you talking about when you were freelance, and then you got this, you got the imposter syndrome. We had somebody on the podcast a few weeks ago actually talking about imposter syndrome and going back to your point about anyone that doesn't is a psychopath, anybody that hasn't got imposter syndrome is a psychopath. And freelancing, freelancing, when you first start freelancing, which is when when I've read the quotes from you about you were talking about when you were first a freelancer, the day that you became it was absolutely terrifying. You laid in bed thinking, where is my next project going to come from? That happens to every single freelancer, and I think especially if you you on in your in your freelance life, um you get the fear initially that you do take on everything, don't you? But then you slowly but surely realize that a lot of people that you're dealing with, when you deal with everybody, are not right for you, and you then can do what you you're doing now, which is making sure you go with with your gut and the people that you want you think you can help the most. So do you did you do you still get the the fear or or is it all is it all gone now? The freelance fear, that's what we could call it.

Vikki Ross: 34:44

Oh, I wish I could say the fear's all gone now.

Chris Norton: 34:47

I still come on, you can't have imposter syndrome now, surely.

Vikki Ross: 34:51

I really do. I really do. Yeah, and do you know I spoke to a copywriter, I had him come and speak at something I was doing. He's a legendary copywriter, and he's I don't know, 85 now. No, I can't do maths, I said that before, I think. He was in his early 80s at the time, and we were walking to the stage together, and as we were walking to the stage, I said, You don't get nervous public speaking, do you? And he went, Darling, if I didn't get nervous, I may as well be dead. Um, and I thought, wow, if he, with all his success and all his years, still gets nervous, I'm gonna allow myself to be nervous. And I know it's a cliche and everyone says it, but being nervous means that you care. And as much as I really hate imposter syndrome, I I I can't I I really hate it. We could spend an hour talking about how much it does to my mind. Um I think it is also the fuel that makes me good at my job because if I didn't care and I was lazy, maybe what I did wouldn't be so right for the brands that I do it for. So I guess I've got better at working with it and embracing it. But yeah, it's very much there and it's horrible.

Chris Norton: 36:08

Yeah, it's horrible for all of us. I mean, the public speaking thing, I can completely relate to that. I mean, I did I went to uni and I did I taught I've taught public relations at Leeds, but I also went to the university here and and did it, and I remember the first couple of presentations I did, I was absolutely terrified. And yet, the way that I present, apparently, I have feedback in the London agency. Um I was terrified, right? We had to when I got my first job um from uni and went like the the agency where I was doing the the envelopes and stuff, and um we had to do presentation training, um, which sounds great, right? It would be fine. And it was two days of presentation training to get you to pitch brilliantly and everything, external trainer and a couple of internal trainers. And I was like, Oh, this sounds great. And then they they this is how they opened the training, and um on at the end of day two, you'll be presenting to Gareth, who is the managing director of the agency, and you'll be presenting your idea to him. And I was, I mean, I'd only been there two weeks, it was absolutely terrifying. It's like one of the most terrifying things. I was just the whole time I'll always think it was, oh my god, I've got to present to the MD. And you know, it was just terrifying. So I I still I still get that, but I think there's a lot of um as you get older, you get used to presenting, or don't don't you? You get the c the confidence. And I think if you know what you're talking about, yeah, the confidence comes. I certainly don't think you should be feeling like you've got imposter syndrome, but and I think I think you're right about about the fee. Yeah, because you've done it, you've you've already got the experience. You're just worried that I'm gonna go, oh, here's here, you know, we've got Apple here. They want you, they've got a brief for you. We need you to write our a new we've got a new iPad. iPad six is coming out. I don't even know what number we're on. Uh can you do us a new voice? And that you've got to be.

Vikki Ross: 38:13

But I got to a point where people kept asking me to come and talk at conferences or or even just in people's agencies and offices. And I said yes on this sounds worthy. I said yes on behalf of copywriters because copywriting was not on uh an agenda as often as um other creative disciplines or just you know the marketing um people that are always going around and and talking about best practices, which is important. But I I really appreciated um being given the chance to represent copywriting. Um and I've travelled all around the world speaking and you know, also an honour to be asked. But it doesn't get easier to get up on stage, but mentally it gets easier to accept that it's not about me. People in the audience um are kinder than we think. I I don't think anyone is sitting in the audience going, can't wait for her to fuck up. Um they're just like, what's she gonna say? And I don't think I could do that. Or if they are thinking they could do it better, then then that's good because they're they're listening with a critical ear, I suppose. Um but yeah, no one's like wishing that you would fail. I I don't know how much Dave Trott likes me saying this because um you know it's it he he's a nicer guy than he would like people to believe. Um so he's an advertising legend, and I have a good relationship with him, which I'm very grateful for. Um we were both speaking at the same conference in Mumbai just before um COVID, actually, and he knew I was nervous, so nervous. Um and I was on just after the break, and we walked into the conference room together, and he said to me, I don't know what you're coming in here for. I've heard the next speaker's shit, and it made me laugh. I love that. Yeah, he made me laugh, which shook me out of my head. Yeah, yeah. He knew what he was doing, which is why he is what of one of the many reasons he is who he is, but I I'll never forget that. That was a really incredible thing for him to do.

Chris Norton: 40:18

Yeah, because I uh when I when I'm speaking at events and stuff, I always think I want I want to give the audience something where they go, oh, that was really interesting and useful. Like we've just done a thing on GEO and how how I how A is affect AI is affecting search, and we had like 600 marketers on one one webinar we did, and then we had another 300 on another, because it's of the moment, everybody how we how everybody is using Google and search now is totally changing. It's Google's been flipped on its head, and people are now not using Google for certain things, which is just so weird. Um, and um yeah, I liked that because we had people and the chat was great, loads of because it's something new and interesting and changing, and you there's the areas that we've talked about on AI where there's it's not great. There's some bits that are really great where you know it's gonna recommend stuff stuff to you that is better than when you just did looked at the top 10 links, it's gonna recommend it better for your exact prompt to use your word before, you know. So, yeah, I do think, but I I also my point before about um public speaking, I I've read so many things on public speaking because I had to prep prepare myself for it. And I and it says that the if you it's just about a mindset in that if you're nervous, and I know what you mean before a conference, because I am, if you've got to do a keynote or whatever, if you're nervous before that, think that actually you're excited because you re you know what you're gonna talk about, and you're ex it's actually the same feeling as excitement, yeah. But also, there's the sheer terror. So I it's trying to turn that on its head.

Vikki Ross: 41:54

You've got to flip the emotion and yeah, go with the positive. I mean, I don't really drink anymore, but I used to have a glass of wine before going on stage to try and settle me. It didn't matter what time I was going on. I'm not an alcoholic at all, but it was, you know, uh a comfort. Um but yeah, it's uh it's a funny thing that we do to ourselves. I also I don't know why, I've always taken it upon myself to be a comedian on stage. Really? Um well yeah, like you know, I said before I'm not hierarchical. I also I don't really like formalities in the workplace. And I don't mean in a disrespectful way. Of course we have to have boundaries and respect for each other, but I also don't think that we need to make it as hard and serious and formal as as as some of us do. And so I tried to just have fun, because I'm just talking about words, and yes, they will make money for your business, but if we can all enjoy ourselves while we're thinking about them, then maybe we'll remember stuff and and do it better.

Chris Norton: 42:51

Yeah, I mean I'm what you just said there about copyright, and I remember reading Eats, Shoots, and Leaves, which is exactly the clever play on words just for the title. I remember that uh you know, I always worried that I'd get some gr grammatical error on one of my uh um signs or whatever. Um there's something else you've um you've talked about, which is uh basically when we spoke before, you were talking about the fact that you've one of the things that when I asked you if there was a mistake you wanted to share on the show and you've been thinking about it, was the fact that and and working in PR I can relate to this because if a client gives us a brief, they go, We want an ide we want a campaign for this, or we want a uh a proposal for this. Normally what I do is come up with three ideas, but sometimes you have more than three, so then you might have five ideas, and actually giving too many ideas just complicates the scenario. And I think you've explained that you've had that issue where you've given too many ideas, and usually the client goes for the bloody one that is the worst one of the lot. So, do you want to explain a little bit about that?

Vikki Ross: 43:53

Yeah, so yeah, this is my mistake. I suppose we've been talking for a while, we haven't talked about the mistake yet, have we? Yeah. Um okay, so for the purpose of your podcast, I wish I had a major mistake to share um with you, but for obvious reasons, I'm really glad that I don't. Um so yeah, my mistake is pretty small, but it's always stuck with me. Um so years ago at the body shop, I got the chance to write the headline on the cover of their mail order catalogue, and it was for the autumn-winter issue, excuse me, and we were leading with a new range of lipstick. And I worked in the in-house creator studio and we operated like an agency, so our marketing colleagues were our clients. And as a very keen junior copywriter, I presented a whole load of lines to the client, thinking that they'd be so impressed with the quantity of options, regardless of the quality. Um, some of those lines should have stayed in my drafts, but I thought that showing how many I'd written would look really good. Unfortunately, like you said, and of course, the client chose one of the lines that I shouldn't have presented, and it lived on the cover of that catalogue for six very long months for me. Um and the line, it was so long ago, I'm sure it's fine to say, I couldn't I can't imagine anyone would remember if they were listening who worked there. Um the line was colour, whatever the season, which is so weak and unimaginative. Um, it gives the reader nothing to go on, like no reason to believe in the body shop or to buy a lipstick from them. It and it's the whatever the season bit that bothers me the most, because I knew full well what season it was. So why wasn't I specific? And because that would have made the copy more relevant to the time, and then whatever else I'd said may have connected better to the product, the brand, and the audience, which is of course what all good copy should do. So that's my marketing mistake for the podcast. And do you know what? I stupidly did it again recently.

Chris Norton: 46:01

We've all done it. We've all done it.

Vikki Ross: 46:03

Twenty odd years later, despite knowing not to do it and telling other copywriters all the time not to do it, I did it. I included it in a list of uh copy recommendations for another client that I would never normally include, but I knew that they would like it, and they did, and now it's on billboards all over London, annoying me every time I see it. I I just can't believe I did it again.

Chris Norton: 46:26

And hang on a minute. How can you be annoyed that the your brilliant copy is on billboards?

Vikki Ross: 46:32

It's not because it's not brilliant.

Chris Norton: 46:35

I just think that if it wasn't brilliant, would it it wouldn't be on billboards, Nicky? I think you're overanalysing this.

Vikki Ross: 46:41

No, I think um not all clients know what good copy is, and that is an issue that we have with AI, because if marketers are using AI over copywriters and they don't know what good copy is, then then they might not get you know the best outputs from AI. Or they'll think it's good, but uh it won't. I mean it's good enough, but but who wants good enough?

Chris Norton: 47:05

No, you want you want that missing oh, not to use a Simon Cow word, but the X factor. That's what it is, isn't it? It's the one thing, untangible thing you can't put your finger on the human can do. And going back to your LinkedIn, that is exactly what you do on LinkedIn. You share, what do you call it, copy that AI couldn't produce?

Vikki Ross: 47:26

Lines, I don't reckon AI can produce.

Chris Norton: 47:29

Yeah, that's it. And um some of them are just brilliant, the way that you're sharing them, but it's different to what you used to do, which was um sharing sharing stuff on Twitter. Um do you find that people and so do people send you stuff that they've seen now? Have you become the person known for that?

Vikki Ross: 47:47

Yeah, all the time. Um I think because well yeah, my DMs are busy and it it's it's a mix of people. It's people not it's people thinking that a line isn't good or it is good and they want to know if I think so too. It's also people who aren't comfortable sharing on social media and so they just want to share with somebody and and leave it in the DMs. Um and it yeah, I guess sometimes I think people are being mean um and maybe a bit too critical. Like we've all we all know what it's like to answer a brief, and we all know what it's like to not nail it. And I think like I just I really want to make it clear that I don't share anything um with bad feeling. Like I completely appreciate and respect that there is a copywriter just like me behind a line that someone might not like, and it's not fair to attack that person um because maybe they were having an off day, maybe they don't know that they could do better, or maybe somebody else got involved and ruined it and they had no control over it. So yeah, I I I want to be clear, because you've mentioned it a few times, that I might have pointed out stuff that's not great, and it's never um to make anyone feel um like they've done something wrong.

Chris Norton: 49:06

Yeah. I mean, oh uh we we've had Sarah Townsend on the show, and she shares stuff as well. Because I follow both of you guys and she'll share stuff that uh where it's the like there's a grammatical errors in it or whatever, it doesn't make sense. And it's always funny. There's a lot of it's funny, which is why you know you get engagement or if it's funny. I think it's fine. Like what you just said there, there's always there might be a copywriter behind it. I mean the key there is might be now. Uh let's if it's bad, let's hope AI did it and blame or blame AI.

Vikki Ross: 49:35

Yeah, but yeah, I everything that I share is in the spirit of um supporting and celebrating the craft and the people behind it. It's never for any other reason than to just uh keep pushing, keep making copy better, and keep making people realise what makes good copy um and how important that is for a brand.

Chris Norton: 49:55

So years ago you you started um Copywriters Unite, didn't you? And it was like a hashtag and and so and now you do that. I mean, we used to call them tweet ups back in the day, didn't we? So what what how how does that work now and what what because is it you've got one in is it Bristol soon?

Vikki Ross: 50:11

Yeah, so Copywriters Unite was a hashtag that I started on Twitter to connect copywriters all over the world because a lot of us do work on our own. Even if we're part of a team in an agency or a um a brand, we might be the only copywriter, and sometimes you just want someone to ask where to put a comma, um or or just you know, what nerd out about words. Um and it really took off on Twitter and people started calling for it to be a real life um thing, and so yeah, this was I don't know, 2012 maybe. Um I s obviously because I'm in London, I started a meetup in London, and however many years later we're now, you know, it's all over the world. There was one in Nairobi last week, um, there's been one in India, uh New York, um, yeah, I won't I don't need to name countries, but all over, and it's amazing to see. Yes, there is one in Bristol coming up, there's one in Amsterdam, one in New York. Because there's no, it's just a meetup, it's just drinks in a pub, there's no tickets, no agenda, no speakers. It is just copywriters connecting. Um and it's also non-copywriters, they they started asking if they could go. Sometimes they're looking to hire a copywriter or an art director's looking for a partner, or whatever the reason, it's a really nice, inclusive um environment for people to just go and uh find each other. And the best thing about it is because not many people like going out on their own to a place where they don't know anyone, but everyone's immediately got one thing in common, which is their job. So it's very easy to start a conversation.

Chris Norton: 51:44

What one job do you wish you'd been given to do?

Vikki Ross: 51:49

Do you know what? I always wished, once I knew what a copywriter was, I always wished that I would get a job as a copywriter in an ad agency and work my way up and up and up to be running a creative studio as maybe a chief creative officer with a copywriting background, because there's most of those positions are with people um who have an art background. Uh yeah, as much as I thought that was the job that I would love, I've ended up with a job I didn't know existed, and that I think I love more than the I mean, uh you you don't know what you don't know, obviously, but getting to write for brands and working directly with the leaders of that brand and coming up with a voice on behalf of them. I mean, it is such an honour. And I don't know that working in an agency, I mean, I probably would have loved what I ended up doing in that regard, but I don't know. I've just got such a great job. Oh god, I sound awful.

Chris Norton: 52:47

No, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. That's why you I invited you on the show because you because of your absolute passion for copywriting, and I literally could talk to you all day. Um if people want to get hold of you, Vicki, how can they get hold of you? Because I've I reckon people are gonna get older off the back of this.

Vikki Ross: 53:04

Oh, thank you. Um well, I'm on LinkedIn or I have an email address and that's it. I don't have a website or anything. Okay, so yeah, I'm Vikki Ross on LinkedIn, and Vikki Ross writes at mail.com is my email address.

Chris Norton: 53:19

So people can drop you a line. And then the final question that we always ask people is now that you've been on the show this time, if you were us, who's the next guest you'd have on and why?

Vikki Ross: 53:35

Oh gosh, and on this I wish I knew about that in advance.

Chris Norton: 53:39

Everybody says that. I should probably do that in future and give people some time to I want to say percolate, but just like I can't there is a word where you where you sit on something and think about it and then it pops up and I can't remember what it is. Will always remembers it and I can't remember what it is.

Vikki Ross: 53:55

Well, also it just means you're gonna have five minutes of me going, um as I'll just go some minutes later. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna say the first person that comes to mind. Um, have you had Ellie Norman from Formula E yet?

Chris Norton: 54:12

No.

Vikki Ross: 54:12

Okay, so she's my client right now, and we have had a mutual appreciation for each other for years, and and now I feel very lucky to get to work with her. Um, she's smart, she's fabulous, she's fascinating, um, she's doing amazing things at Formula E. And if you like my passion for my job, then you'll like her passion for hers. She's she's just amazing. She um invited me to the E Pre um at the end of last season so I could get a feel for the race. Wow. And I went on the track before the race was about to start, and she was doing some PR stuff with team members and and colleagues, and there was photographers and all sorts, and she saw me go past and she came away from the group that she was with and over to me and acted like she had all day to talk to me. She is just a really great person. So I think she'd be a really good guest.

Chris Norton: 55:08

I mean, that is a ringing endorsement. I'm gonna have to get on the show. I mean, I I've got one question, one question about that. Do the cars make any noise or not?

Vikki Ross: 55:16

Well, they do, but it's nothing like the engines of a Formula One car. And I know that Formula One fans, um of them don't like Formula E because what they one of the things they like about Formula One is that rev of the engine, and they miss it when it's not in Formula E. But what you get with the Formula E noise is a really futuristic sound which fits with what the company and the sport is doing. And so I I think it really suits the race.

Chris Norton: 55:47

And all the cars are the same as well. Like in Formula One, they're all different, whereas I I believe all the engines and everything are exactly the same. So the it's the best driver, isn't it? I don't it was when it originally started. I don't know about now.

Vikki Ross: 55:59

It is, but the the best driver is still at the same advantage or disadvantage as every other driver, because with all the technological advancements that they work on between seasons to be more sustainable, more environmentally friendly, they're all getting a new car every year, so they haven't had however long to practice in it. It's really brilliant. Um, I'm aware I'm sounding very much like someone who has swallowed everything their client has done.

Chris Norton: 56:25

No, I love it. I love it. I love the passion. It's great.

Vikki Ross: 56:28

I I am sold. I mean, honestly, I I I'm now a fan of Formula E. And that's what you want. Like, and and that's what I think, you know, working with entertainment brands of Formula E, although a sport is also an entertainment brand, I think um, you know, we owe it to fans to act like fans because uh, you know, they they they're passionate about the sport that they love or the entertainment that they love, and it's important that we are too.

Chris Norton: 56:52

Yeah, great. Well, thanks for that, Vicki. That was brilliant. Thanks very much for coming on the show. Um, thanks so much.