Sarah Waddington: 1:57

It doesn't really demonstrate the complexity of our role. And it certainly doesn't link to commercial outcomes. I want people in that strategic advisory role where the higher fee earning opportunity is. And also because that will help future proof our industry.

Chris Norton: 2:11

Today on Embracing Marketing Mistakes, we're joined by Sarah Waddington, CBE, CEO of the PRTA, and one of the UK's most respected voices in public relations.

Sarah Waddington: 2:21

We have to start correcting misinformation. So all of a sudden, the work that we do is again increasing in importance. There's lots of reasons why right now we, you know, should be saying we are indispensable.

Chris Norton: 2:33

With more than 25 years' experience as a management consultant, communicator, and executive coach, a former CIPR president, and the founder of Future Proof and co-founder of Socially Mobile. She's a passionate advocate for accountable leadership, diversity, and social mobility. And today we discuss how influence really works inside organizations, why PR must show up as a true management function, and the mistakes and turning points that have shaped Sarah's career and how she leads in 2026.

Sarah Waddington: 3:04

I can give you a million. What about when I went globally viral? I got threats, threat, threats, told that people were going to report me so they should have my kids taken off me.

Chris Norton: 3:20

Sarah Waddington, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. I think this is a world first. Well, it's a first for the show. Anyway, you're the first guest that we've had as the half the other half. I'm not saying you are the other half now. I'm the better half. Yeah, the better half. That's what and he would say that too. He would. I can't remember how dangerous territory.

Sarah Waddington: 3:40

Because that's what I told him.

Chris Norton: 3:41

So manipulated. He actually uh we've had a few people recommend that we go you on the show. Um so thanks for coming on and and giving your your take on everything. So how has the last like 13 months been becoming the PRCA CEO? Is that right? That's right, yeah. Because you've been first of all, you were the CIPR president, right? Which is is that voluntary or is that paid?

Sarah Waddington: 4:02

That's a voluntary role, yeah. Right. Is it actually a three-year role as well? Because you do president-elect, president, and then vice president as they now call it, I think.

Chris Norton: 4:09

Right. So does that mean that now do you have like a with being the CEO of the PRCA, do you have to like is it like Labour versus Conservative? So how does that work?

Sarah Waddington: 4:19

Never, never, never no. I um I volunteered with the CIPR for over 20 years. Yeah. Um, I will hear no shit chat about it. It's a really important organization, and the people across there are great. Um, and I think you know, people say is the space in the industry for the two organizations. I think right now there is, yeah. And um it's interesting because they're very much about individual performance through the charter, and I do think the Royal Charter is important and it brings credibility to our profession. And the PRCA is much more about um organizational performance, resilience, and growth. So, you know, for me, there's a big distinction, and I love that, and that's where we're leaning into. And to come back to your first question, the 13 months that I've just gone, I mean, I feel blinking, I've missed it. Um, it has been a whirlwind, it has been a challenge, and um it's been a great year of personal growth.

Chris Norton: 5:10

Because you started and it wasn't gonna be it was like a didn't have it on the big microphone. Football manager who takes on the interim role and then suddenly does so well that everyone goes, Oh, do you want to be the do you want to be the full-time? Is that how it is it full-time or is it like that's like a Garrett Southgate story, isn't it? Yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 5:26

But um no, so what happened was there was a point after the governance review at the PRCA where they um did a call out for um uh it was an interim management board. And I thought, you know what, I've got loads of membership body experience through the CIPR, through the IOD, because um I worked with that them quite a lot through this recent modernisation period, and I was still a regional chair at that time. And I thought I can put that to good use, and um actually they've had a tough old time as being quite torrid. I can maybe go and help. And I'm one of these people that, as people may know, if they know me, I'm quite opinionated. So you can't, I mean, a big leader, you can't stand and gripe by the sidelines unless you're getting your hands dirty. So I thought I'll do that. And really enjoyed it, and they appointed another CEO, and um unfortunately that CEO went off after about 10 months and it was off on the sick.

Chris Norton: 6:16

Okay.

Sarah Waddington: 6:16

Uh, and we were just very aware as a management board that the team had been through quite a difficult time. You know, they'd seen the organisation through a number of transitions, they'd lost their DG, unfortunately, through an untimely death. Uh, and like I say, they'd had this other transition and they'd been really looking for um strong leadership and a vision uh to unite behind. And so um the management board decided that we needed to put someone in, well, uh firstly, just to oversee things for a short while. Uh, and then when we realized that uh the CEO was no longer, he put his notice in basically that that we're gonna have to do something a bit more um firm and permanent. And so we put an interim ready to go um for recruiting in the permanent role. So they'd approached me and said, Would you be interested in doing this? And I just I hadn't entered my head, but then I thought, oh, it's great because I was at the time I was doing professional advisory work with Wodzink, you know, my husband's firm. Um, and that's you know, basically it was Ned roles for the create creative industries, which I was loving. And I had a really nice kind of rhythm because I could plan my own day. I mean, I've been self-employed now for I don't know how many years, and I just thought, I don't know, will I cope with being uh an employee again? Any anyhow, we did that, got started, and really recognised the scale of the challenge quite quickly, but also had a very clear vision about where I could take the organization and what the industry needed because of the work and a lot of listening we were doing at the time. Uh, and so when we went out for recruitment, a lot of people said, Oh, please stay on. You know, it's it's good what you're doing. Um, and it but it took me quite a while to get there in terms of decision making because, like I said, there was the had to think about the impact on family life. We've got five kids between us, you know, that's that's not easy. Um, I liked what I was doing. Um, but actually I kind of felt fundamentally that would have been very difficult for another person to come in again and then continue the work that was underway. And I'm really glad I made the decision actually. So it was a formal recruitment process. I think there was at least two other candidates with um trade association experience. But um I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled to be doing it, and this year I feel like we're in a really good place.

Will Ockenden: 8:19

Yeah. And what have been your priorities in that first year then? So you talked about recognising the scale of the challenge. So as you saw it, what was the challenge and what have you sort of focused on in that time? Yeah. Apart from being everywhere around the country, everywhere, and internationally, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 9:39

In fact to Dubai next week. Um for a couple of days. It's a tough gig, isn't it? It's well, it's it's actually tougher than it sounds, but I'll take that one for the team.

Chris Norton: 9:48

Trip to the palm.

Sarah Waddington: 9:51

So um the scale of the challenge, yeah. So when I got in, um we were doing loads of really good work, but it wasn't particularly connected. And um I think members were kind of feeling a little bit adrift. And the feedback that was coming through was like people were you know, rightly um scrutinizing their subs and thinking, what am I getting for my money? And also, as a trade association, are you really doing the championing for our industry that we're used to? We used to get um with Francis in the past. Um and I actually went and did the most fundamental comms uh work you can do is I went back to the vision, mission, and values, um, did a consultation on those and got those adopted pretty quickly. And that was just fantastic because the minute we got those, we had five strategic goals we wanted to uh adhere to, and that has been basically the guy behind every single bit of decision making we've done since. And then there was an element of making sure we were operationally sound, making sure we had the right team in the right roles, um which took a little bit of of uh of doing as it does. Um there was an awful lot of meeting, greeting, listening to people because um members know what they want, you know, and and did they know that it's a challenging marketplace and they rightly expect us to deliver. So there was an element of fixing, I would say, the member value proposition. And um, you know, that took me through to probably the latter part of the year. And then of course, people can forget that we're a global organization. We have a you know different entity out of Mina, we were very active in APAC, we have um a presence in a number of different international markets, and so we've got to get across those as well, making sure that we're delivering there. And you know, that people want to see the CEO, so there was an element of quite a lot of trouble actually. And for me, the only thing I would say, the other thing I'd say is that I I really wanted to demonstrate our commitment to the regions and nations because we can be seen as this conversation came around as being London-centric. Yeah, and I'm like, uh-uh-uh, not anymore.

Will Ockenden: 11:47

Well that's one of the I mean, anecdotally, that's one of the things we've noticed as being one of the big changes that you know regionally it seems to be much more regionally representative now, which I think a lot of people will be very pleased about.

Chris Norton: 11:58

It's a tough balance for any join us, everybody. It's yeah, it's it's a tough balance for any organisation though, because 90% of the PR industry is in the bloody, is in bloody London, isn't it? It's in the south east.

Sarah Waddington: 12:08

There's a lot of it, and actually, but our census shows that um um Manchester's the next big conurbation, like you get a large number of um PR agencies in Manchester now, so it's it is moving. Um I mean Brums always been a um you know quite a home to quite a lot of agents.

Chris Norton: 12:22

What about Newcastle where you were?

Sarah Waddington: 12:23

Yeah, there's quite there's quite a lot. I mean, I ran a you know a UK agency from Newcastle for well since 2009 until only a few years back, you know, really vibrant marketplaces. They're very different to London. It's a you know it's a different ecosystem.

Will Ockenden: 12:37

Yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 12:37

Um, but that's why it's so important that you know we the PRCI is a leader that recognises that because I think it can be very difficult if you if you've lived in London and that's where you've had your career to think that you can replicate that. And I actually lived that experience with um one of my employers. I you know, I worked for a while for a networks agency and they had a very successful London offer and they thought that they could just come and do the same, plonk us in different places, to buy outfits in different places, and then we'd be able to sell the kind of services and the products um in the same way, and and they'd be ridiculous because they'd be looking for, I mean, this is way back, but you know, Sarah, go and sell this. It's a um it's a tool that costs a thousand pounds a month, and I'd be working for brands who were barely paying us a thousand pounds a month, and I was like, like, do us a favour.

Chris Norton: 13:21

I I worked I worked at a few uh network agencies, being the northerner, as I said before we started recording. It was like um The Northerner. And I I always found that if if you were the the it was slightly looked on looked down on by so you and this is you know, if we were the Leeds office or whatever, the London t the London guys look looked could look down on the and the the budgets were smaller and it and a lot of the network agencies, whether you're the they they sort of buy and then they expect just to buy it by an agency and the agency to then become like a a a shining light in that district. And it doesn't necessarily uh work that way because there's a difference between running an agency and winning business and driving an agency to success, yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't there like with a with a local twang on it? That's the beauty.

Sarah Waddington: 14:07

And also knowing the marketplace and also just recognizing, like, so for example in the Northeast, we've got was it two three listed companies? You know, if you're looking for that kind of work, you're not gonna get it there. You know, you got and also these communities, just like Leeds community, um, you know, I'm looking at your lovely window, and it, you know, like it's a it's people know each other. I've come from a PRCA brunch. Everybody knows each other, you know people's business, we share stories, you know, like and um I just think trying to yeah, you know, trying to stamp uh what is effectively a different culture, yeah. Just you can't drag and drop. And I think nor should you try and do that. Yeah.

Chris Norton: 14:42

I think you've done that because that's but that's the beauty of who you are, because you've come from the northeast and you you're bringing the that northern I quite like that that well would do for bias.

Sarah Waddington: 14:53

What does my husband call me? He says I've a street fighter.

Chris Norton: 14:57

He said you were I I think he said you were a whirlwind. A whirlwind is what he said. He described you on the podcast. So being a whirlwind, how do you

Will Ockenden: 15:04

how do you get a C how the hell do you get a C B E in PR? Because I want one. There's hope for you, yeah. You're off your Majesty, if you're listening.

Sarah Waddington: 15:12

I still don't, I still don't know. Um no, I was very fortunate that um uh a lady I work with uh called Jen Robson, who now also runs her own agency, fantastic agency, called Fellshaw. Um I was working with her, she was um the comms, oh actually, the head of the strategic head of comms at um the Northeast Local Enterprise Partnership. And um there'd been a call out, I think. I'm not quite sure how it works, still quite not sure how it works, but um she'd spoken to Stephen and just said, look, um you can you put applications in you what happens is if I get it right, there is like a kind of formal application process, which I didn't know about, but you have to gather letters of recommendation. And um, between the two of them, they went to different charities that I've been involved with. Um, and just you know, obviously done the future-proof community by Butch, we've got I think there's about seven books. I mean, it's been a while, it's kind of um a little bit on hold at the moment, but it's there, and we keep that facility there so people can access the content. Um, and then I uh there've just been a number of different um pieces of work and and charitable endeavours that I've been involved with. And I yeah, apparently I I'm still a bit, you know, gobsmacked by it. I mean it's it's so wonderful, but um I'm I'm very proud of it. And also I do think it's important because I come from a single parent background, and um it was a ch it was a I didn't realise that I didn't have the same privileges as some people until I was quite far into my career, actually. I must have been in my mid-20s, and then I suddenly thought, uh, these people, how do they how did they get all this stuff and how can they just walk in and how do they got this confidence? I didn't have the shared capital that other people did. And um, yeah, so it's I just think it's good because it means that if I can do it, it's a demonstration that anybody can.

Chris Norton: 16:54

So would you say you're working class then?

Sarah Waddington: 16:57

No, I wouldn't actually because um we I can't. Because we had this debate. Oh, it's so difficult. I'm setting up now.

Chris Norton: 17:05

My dad is a my dad was a single parent when I was a teenager. Then my mum and dad split up. And so I was brought up in a house with my dad. He earned a construction firm, but small, you know. Um, and so we I we work working class. So we have the debate in the office. What is the like, Chris? You own a PR agency, you're not working class. But I feel when I went to London and I was the the northerner, again, you know, I always felt like exactly the same as what you do. You walk into a room and the person with the northern accent from a working class background is slightly looked treated slightly differently, not not so much these days to the people who come who go to eat the put it this way: the person the first person account exec that I worked alongside was from Ox Oxford, and the other one was from Cambridge. So I was like, uh I'm from Leeds Becket.

Sarah Waddington: 17:50

Um I went to Leeds. Yeah. I was at I was in Hortsford.

Chris Norton: 17:53

You were Leeds Trinity, weren't you?

Sarah Waddington: 17:54

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was in Horsesford. So I was yeah.

Will Ockenden: 17:57

And you did you did marketing?

Speaker 5: 17:58

French, uh, French and media.

Chris Norton: 18:00

So I did two different degrees at French and Media, but then you didn't do marketing. Because I thought you started out in marketing, or did you not?

Sarah Waddington: 18:06

I did an MA in marketing later at Northumbria.

Chris Norton: 18:08

Right, okay.

Sarah Waddington: 18:09

So you did that, but then how's how does that transform into PR or is that just a natural So um actually that make it I can't look back now and just think at the time I thought that media slightly aside, but at the time I thought my media degree was a bit of a waste, and I've been told that, you know, I remember having arts teachers told me, oh, you shouldn't be doing that, it's a waste of your time. And I kind of hedged my bets, so I did do joint honours, so I did double the time that uh a lot of my my um friends did. Uh and I love the French and I thought I was going to put that to good use, which I didn't in my career, but I have got French family and obviously I like holidaying, so um that's that's that's that's worded there. But the media degree has been one of the most phenomenal things for my career because uh I can look at things really critically, and actually, in this era of fake news, um, that that schooling was incredible apart from the practical skills we also got. But um, as part of the degree, which was a four-year course, um four because mainly because you spent a year in France, but um the media course you had to do um two work experience placements, and they ended up one in an agency, actually, I think it was Batley or Armley, and another one the Welsh especially at that time. Yeah, we're talking like 1999, maybe or seven. That's what I that's what that's the classic agency. Um it's not we were not so her.

Chris Norton: 19:27

So basically we were in Leeds, we were into the same night from some baths because that's when I was at Leeds back in as well. I graduated in 2000, so yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 19:35

Yeah, I was 95 to 99. Yeah, so I did that, and then um in the final year, um, I ended up at Time T's in their press office, which was fantastic. Wow, and I really, really liked it. It was back in the days, I don't know. I know that this is gonna make me sound super old, and there'll be loads of people who will never have heard of this, but they were still uh we launched the last Catherine Cookson, which I don't know if you remember Catherine Cookson, Catherine Cookson with all those crazy novels, yeah, um, romantic novels.

Will Ockenden: 20:00

So um, Jane, um something I'm quite interested in, and I know you you will have a view on this, which is great. Um, something I think PR professionals struggle with is raising the profile of PR at a board level and a management level. And I think often PR is perhaps seen as a some sort of fluffy, intangible discipline, or the marketing director believes in it, but the kind of the impact of PR never really makes it up to board level. I know this is something you've been um you have a view on. Yeah. I'd love to I'd love to hear. I suppose two things really. What's you know, what is what's the state at the moment in terms of kind of visibility of PR at a board level and what can PR people do to better raise the profile of PR? Because that's just going to benefit every every PR pro, isn't it?

Sarah Waddington: 20:44

Yeah, I I think there's kind of like multi-level challenges with this one. So um you have if you look at brands or organizations with really good corporate affairs, there it's because they're very tightly aligned with management. So it's like they have the earth at the C-suite and they align all activity accordingly and they measure that way. It's not about media outputs or um, you know, it's about really good outcomes that are helping the organization succeed and building relationships um with key stakeholders. Um, so uh it it just depends on the quality um of the team and actually how much the directors understand about what we do. So that's that's the first challenge that in in my current role that I'm trying to solve. So at the moment, the PRCA, in fact, today's the last day for members to have their say. We've got a consultation going to redefine what public relations is. I think there are some good ones out there. The CIPRs is probably the the best one, I think, currently.

Will Ockenden: 21:42

The planned and sustained, I remember it from university.

Sarah Waddington: 21:45

Absolutely, um, between an organization and its public.

Chris Norton: 21:48

Yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 21:48

But I don't think it goes far enough for me because um it doesn't really demonstrate the complexity of our role and also its role in terms of um being a strategic management discipline. Um and and it certainly doesn't link to um commercial outcomes. And I think that's what we need to do. We need to be much more assertive in the fact that we're integral to organizational success. Um, so at the moment we are doing a piece of work um which is looking at that. That will be the new definition. So we'll be publishing the new definition probably mid-February. Um, but we also have another piece of work that's looking at the economic contribution of product relations to the UK economy, and that will give us a really firm base from which we can um talk to government policymakers and business to demonstrate our worth. So it's for me that the the big mission this year, which is why I'm asking all our members but also the PR community to get behind and for more people to come and join us, because obviously the more members we have, the the heavier the weight uh of our voice and the more consistent our voice. But also, I'll have more, you know, the fees allow me to do more uh in terms of engaging with um key stakeholders. But the plan is this new this new definition with the economic case for us um will help people understand why we're so important and um why they should invest more in us. And I think that unfortunately, uh today's society and and the wicked problems that we're seeing across the globe and the rise of the far right, um we have some really uh difficult societal challenges. Uh but what's good for the PR is it's helping us because we are here to foster communications, to broker understanding between disparate groups, and that's never been needed more than ever. You know, the government is really struggling to achieve its missions. And, you know, what we're saying is look to this community to help because it's literally our day job. You know, we can do your futures and foresights work and insights, we can we can do your stakeholder mapping and engagement in ways that others can't. And have anybody heard I was on the radio today show before Christmas, you know, with Sir Martin Sorrel, who was basically saying PR is dead, flood the internet with paid content. I mean, utter bullshit. I mean, I can I cannot you know rebut that hard enough. And actually, that's you know, it's good because it spurred me on even more. Not that I needed it, but I'm like, okay, new I mean, wow, taking him off.

Will Ockenden: 24:07

Yeah.

Chris Norton: 24:08

Will said to me, I've because I I got anxiety listening to it. I mean brilliant, brilliant interview. And I think every PR person listening to this will be cheering, cheering for the point that I landed in that. Yeah, absolutely brilliant. With with what you've said there though, what because obviously I'm a graduate of PR, I've worked in PR 28 years. I don't want to we in fact, this podcast isn't entirely about communications and PR. We try we do a lot a lot of marketing. But what if we're looking at the state of PR or the economy, like you just mentioned the government there, which is a bone of contention, but uh Rachel Reeves will put park that. But what do you think of the economy? Because I I I I've got my views on the what they've done to the hospitality sector in particular is knackered. What do you think about the actual economy in the PR? Because you'll you'll speak to all the agencies and all you get I know when we met a year ago, you were saying you were asking us how it was in in Leeds, and I think it's changed in the last twelve months. So I just wondered what you what's what do you feel the the the economy is like?

Sarah Waddington: 25:05

Uh, the economy's tough, isn't it? I mean, I if you talk to economists, uh, they'll say this has been the most difficult time in uh recent history, possibly history. You know, we had the Brexit vote, we had COVID, and then the economy just hasn't picked up since that po point. And um, you know, I've talked to so many, both in my previous job and this one, so many great uh directors in this industry who um they've got a brilliant proposition, they've done all the right things, they've pulled all the right levers, you know, they've restructured when they've had to, you know, they're they're controlling their cost base, but you know, we're all at the mercy of whether people will buy our services, and when there's no money to do so, that's a problem. And then you obviously get these tricky procurement problems that a lot of agencies are getting with some bad behaviours, which we're trying to solve through with our initiative called Pitch Forward. But um, you know, it it's it's a very challenging time because when people are blown through the reserves, even having done all the right things, it makes it precarious. And um, you know, I think last year was the first year I started to hear um tentative confidence coming through that no one's feeling bullish. There's oh, there might be a handful. It's been a really good past year for independents um, you know, who are taking on perhaps the bigger, the really big agencies. But um, you know, it's it's still challenging.

Chris Norton: 26:26

Okay, because the other side of it is like being a regional agency where we're but I'm not we're not an actual regional agency, we were based in Lake. Is it is it is the I think there's a bit of insularity though.

Sarah Waddington: 26:35

I think that's quite handy. I used to find that you know, my agency, my personal experience was actually we were quite well buffered. It just depended. I mean, I was quite fortunate because of the sectors I was working with.

Chris Norton: 26:44

Yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 26:45

Um I suppose I suppose it's dependent on that, really.

Chris Norton: 26:48

Yeah, because we've got a few hospitality clients, and it's desperate time for the we've had we've had a few go bust this year, and all down to you know, it's it's awful because the brands just suffer, and obviously, as being a supplier, it's been tough for us too. So it yeah, the the economy is probably the hardest one. The last 12 months have been the hardest since I started this agency many years ago, 15, 16 years ago. Um, definitely. Well, probably not at the beginning because you you were trying to make ends meet. Um, yeah, it's interesting to hear what people's take on it is because we interviewed someone uh a few weeks ago and literally we finished the podcast, and he was a London, he had a London agency and he said, How are you guys finding it? And I said, Oh, uh I said, Yeah, it's been tough, but we're you know, we've got reserves, we've built the business profitably, it's we're well run. Um, so we're all right, but I mean we're not going to make a millions this year.

Sarah Waddington: 27:38

Well, you know, at our conference last year, we had a really great um UK uh PR and public affairs conference around two different stages, and uh a key theme that kept coming up from our speakers was standing still as the new growth, you know. So I mean that's depressing but true. That's what I mean that's what every level didn't matter what size, what sector, everybody said, look, if we if we just continue as we're going, we've basically it's we're perfectly towing, but we're we're taking that the win.

Chris Norton: 28:04

Well, this guy said to us, he said he knew four or five PR agencies in London, these were London, he didn't name them, um, but he said they're running at a loss. Yeah, I was like, that's awful. I was like, it was quite depressing. I was like, okay. I said, Well, we're not working, we're not going to be running at a loss, no chance. So, yeah, it was just interesting.

Will Ockenden: 28:19

So, is is part of it? I mean, uh I'm you know, you you mentioned about this, you know, better defining PR, raising the profile at a board level. I don't think PR, a lot of PR people back themselves enough and believe almost, I think there's almost a lack of belief about the impact of PR because as you quite rightly said, I mean, it fundamentally can change behaviour, it can drive sales intent, it can, you know, it's a very powerful, relevant discipline, whatever Martin Sorrel says. Um, but I don't think PR people often back themselves in a sense.

Sarah Waddington: 28:47

There is slightly an issue as well where there is a swathe of the industry who are still very wedded to media relations and commoditizable services.

Chris Norton: 28:55

Yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 28:55

And so part of the challenge for me is how do we create this movement where people move away from that? Because I want people in that strategic advisory role where the higher fee earning opportunity is, and also uh because that will help future-proof our industry. You know, we we so there's an element of how do we get people to have that skill set and then how do we help them manage the transition? And you know, I'm not saying we will not be doing those services, but actually we really do need to be thinking about the consultancy element and aligning it very much with um the management objectives.

Chris Norton: 29:25

Is that is that based on the fact the green paper I'm halfway through it, by the way, I haven't fully read it yet. The green paper on the PRCA on the AI side of things because as things get commoditized, like you said, press releases, media coverage, feature, all that stuff, like yeah, we're still doing it. Yeah, but I mean I everything that I listen to, every because I'm I've been in this is why I'm into tech. I've always that's how I started out, and and everything is saying three years max, and there's a massive thing coming towards us. I'm not sure if it's overhyped because social genuinely, I do think it's overhyped.

Sarah Waddington: 29:58

Um, AI is additive, it's there to help us. Yeah, and what is coming through very strongly, and it's coming back to like the situation we've got in the world right now, relationships are ever more important. You know, I I went to the Ederman Trust Barometer launch and that was quite terrifying, very somber, talking about the retreat into insularity because people every year it's worse and worse. But also, it really did help um bring out the the opportunity for comms because people feel so isolated, they hate what's going on in the world. They're retreating, they're retreating. They don't there's no trust anymore. Uh and so they're only um coming back into their very local communities, and that's friends and family, but even then, only when it's people who share their values and beliefs. So they're not listening to crazy Uncle Andrew because he's you know doesn't that is not the same thing. They want confirmation bias, and so they're settling into these much, much smaller shells, and that's that's a very dangerous place to be, um, particularly when you think about the rise of the far right and and and what's happening uh across the world right now. So, but it's it's it's kind of good for us because we can step up here and demonstrate our value very, very quickly. Um, and that's what I'm I'm keen that this industry does.

Chris Norton: 31:14

Strategic advisory will. What do you think strategic advisory is? Well, um, I was gonna say as the co-house.

Will Ockenden: 31:23

The um this reminds me of conversations we've had with Crispin Manners, actually about um Yeah, he's great. Um he's a friend of the the pod. I like it when he does this. Yeah, and then carries on. Great of the pause. We had read some of those pauses out, didn't we? But we've done a bit of work with him about, and he's helped us um shift the agency from selling time and selling commoditized services to selling value. And and it's it's a bit yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's been a really interesting. I mean, the the crux of it was we realized um virtually everything we do at a certain level and above is about growth. We enable growth, we enable revenue growth, it might be recruitment growth, and um we now sell growth solutions, which is obviously a premium sell as opposed to selling time, it's been a fascinating process. Um, on to another hot topic.

Sarah Waddington: 32:14

Just sorry on that, in terms of um, I think I think that's great, and that's exactly what he is exactly the right advice and the right um approach to have taken. The other thing about AI uh and and tech and what's going on, um, again, a massive opportunity for us because for the first time, directors are thinking about reputation because all of a sudden, these the way that LLM scrape data, they're like, shit, like we have to start correcting misinformation. We have to make sure that the data and the content being put out is accurate because it's just gonna get scraped and then you know, rehashed however many times. So all of a sudden the work that we do is again increasing in importance because who are the it sounds very high for lutin, the reputation guardians, the ethical voice within an organization, who's creating that content that's usually sits within our wheelhouse, right? So there's lots of reasons why right now we you know should be saying we are indispensable to you. You need to invest more in these services.

Will Ockenden: 33:14

Yeah, I mean that's the soapbox we talk about all the time regarding um uh uh GEO, for example, and PR being central to GE.

Chris Norton: 33:22

Yeah, we had we had a we did a webinar in webinar in October and had 1200 people on it. It's it's insane. A hot, hot topic.

Sarah Waddington: 33:33

Like hot button of complex.

Will Ockenden: 33:35

Yeah, yeah, completely. So I was gonna say another hot topic, and we like our hot topics, um, and this caught my eye. Fake experts. That's that's that's in your sights at the moment, isn't it?

Sarah Waddington: 33:43

Everything's in my sights. I'm gonna stamp out the bad practice.

Will Ockenden: 33:46

So go on, what's it?

Sarah Waddington: 33:47

Not even finger-handed, I've got an army behind me.

Will Ockenden: 33:50

Yeah, fake experts. So what what's happening and how who's a fake expert? Well, it's the it's the unscrupulous PR industry.

Sarah Waddington: 33:56

It's not unscrupulous PR industry, it's unscrupulous digital people. Right. Not digital, that's not fair.

Chris Norton: 34:03

We're getting into the digital PR debate.

Sarah Waddington: 34:04

I was gonna say SEO people. Yeah, but do you know what it is? It's it's and even them are getting a tad um with a bad name, and it and that's not fair. So Rob War from the Press Gazette did a fantastic expose. He called it a PR Hall of Shame. I'm not calling it PR Hall of Shame, it's a hall of shame. Uh, and basically said there's a it's actually a very small handful. It's like um we're talking less than 20, possibly 10. I can't remember um off the back of my head. But um there's some bad actors who are basically just creating this is a very technical term, shitloads of content and just whacking it out. And um, Rob, you know, would be spray and spray. No, seriously, the amount that they're getting out. Um and so they did some digging, and it's like they've really brought it down to like a because this small number, but their output is significant. Um, and yeah, so they're putting things like just fake experts in the media, radio. Oh, yeah, and just truthfully doing that.

Chris Norton: 34:58

Oh, truthfully faking faking.

Sarah Waddington: 34:59

Yeah, yeah, gen genuine fakes.

Will Ockenden: 35:01

That is and that also massively brings the rest of the industry down, doesn't it?

Sarah Waddington: 35:04

So this is what's happening. So even that headline um was PR Hall of Shame. And so the first thing I did is that came out, I contacted, saw it, I think that came out on the Friday afternoon, I spotted it Saturday morning, literally lying in bed. First thing I do is LinkedIn and say, Can we have a call? Got a call on the Monday. Um, asked him for his the you know what the details he had, checked against our data, our member database, not one. In fact, and in when we actually talked, I mean he actually knows as well. He says they're not these are not PR people at all.

Will Ockenden: 35:34

Um that doesn't make the good headline though, does it?

Sarah Waddington: 35:36

Yeah, no, but it was really good. And actually, Rob uh and I are gonna be speaking at the Digital PR Summit in Manchester in um um April. PR members can get a discount. And um sorry, that was really bad.

Chris Norton: 35:49

Sorry, you can flick whatever you want on here.

Sarah Waddington: 35:52

And um we'll be talking about this because um the Digital PR Summit is you know, the organisers they're very keen on raising standards, and also they want the reputation of the industry to be as high as it can be. And for people like us who do good quality work um with integrity, we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't have to have our reputation knocked by people like that.

Chris Norton: 36:12

There's always been shit people though, like in in SEO, there's there's good there's good SEO practitioners and there's bad SEO practitioners, and you've seen it with social media, like when social media came out, there was a few good people, and then there was all these people who were like, I'm a I was an engineer until last year, and now I'm a Facebook marketing consultant.

Sarah Waddington: 36:30

This is the problem, right? Because anybody, absolutely anybody, can set themselves up as a practitioner. There's not a there's no barrier to entry, and we need like we we need to get to that point, really. And it's just you know, I hear it all the time. It's like, oh well, you know, I obviously and I've got nothing against people who receptionists, but you know, you know, like I fancy I fancy doing a bit of social. It's always that as intentional, it's just really good at social. I don't think I had to make a couple of TikToks, and they're great. Someone's once. I've got nothing to do with this with the business objectives.

Chris Norton: 36:59

That's true, that's true. So this show is about fuck up some mistakes.

Will Ockenden: 37:03

Um, not that you've made any, but um, you know, I was about to say where do where do I start? I mean, like I've yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 37:09

So we've had everything on this show, haven't we? We've had people's businesses that have failed, we've had pitch nightmares, we've had um pitch nightmares who weren't even allowed to broadcast because they're potentially liable. We've had somebody mistaken for David Cameron at a press conference, and then he basically delivered the press conference with the entire team thinking. Yeah, that was a good one. That's brilliant so there's some fantastic ones. We do a super edit at the end of every year with all the all the mistakes added together. So come on, what what confessions or mistakes are you able to share? I can give you a couple. But that last one does remind me of when I was uh on the board at the CIPR, and um there was a very lovely man called John Brown who served too. Fantastic, brilliant brain. Looked and spoke just like Gordon Brown, did not make the connection. It was always banging on about politics, this, that, and the other, until someone said, You do know that that's his brother, throwing you out. I didn't sleep all night. I was just like, what the hell have I said? At what point? You only just call it everything is about the gun in your head, yeah, about everything. I mean, I'm opinionated on everything, right?

Will Ockenden: 38:07

What does John Brown do then?

Sarah Waddington: 38:09

He's fantastic. I think he also works in. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. But he's brilliant. He's a you know hugely ethical, but he's brilliant on governance. He's and he's a lovely human being.

Will Ockenden: 38:19

It's just and you did you realise like hours later?

Sarah Waddington: 38:23

No, it was about months. It was like I literally served on a board with him for months and months and months, banging on about politics and what more, this and that. And you must I mean he must hear it from everybody with anyway. That's an aside. I mean, where do I start? I think a couple of more fundamental ones, which I think other people will um probably have had similar experiences. I think there's been a couple of employees that I went to which didn't share my values, and I stayed there too long, even though I knew there was one I was there nine months where I actually learnt a lot, but there was no leadership above me. And that was a that was a disaster. I went to another one where I was I was uh in a leadership role, and I knew within a year that actually it was not a good place, and I I probably classic may thought I could change it and it it would have been impossible. So like but like boiling the ocean. So that was terrible. I mean, I could I can give you a million. What about when I went globally viral? And then what about the second time I went viral? And then recently, you know, with Martin Stowval I did LinkedIn viral, which I was the first time.

Will Ockenden: 39:22

What was the first viral occasion then a couple days ago about that?

Sarah Waddington: 39:24

Yeah, I mean, was it a mistake? Some people would say yes, because it damaged my reputation for a bit. I say no because I was true to myself, and also um it was about my beliefs. Um, and it actually brought me a lot of um new colleagues and new business in the end. But with that one, um, when my kids were younger, I think they were probably oh, I feel like saying the closing age, they were six and seven or seven and eight. And I was reading those Biff and Chip books that she was school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had Sleeping Beauty, and it was around the time of the Me Too movement, and there was a picture in there, and it was this dodgy-looking prince, and he was very dodgy looking in the picture, leaning over a sleeping girl, and then Biff or Chipper, whichever the little boy is in the background watching as he kisses.

Chris Norton: 40:14

Biff's the girl, isn't it? I think. I think Chip's the boy. So I always thought Biff's a weird name for a girl. Biff was in Back to the Future, and he was a big geezer. I don't remember because I was slightly traumatized by all of it. Yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 40:26

But um, so it just was like, you know, just say, and I and I just looked at it and just thought, oh, for God's sake, it was awful. Um and I tweeted um something like, you know, we absorb uh, you know, kids absorb this while we're still seeing imagery like this. You know, we're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna improve. I can't remember exactly what the word was, but it was basically said, you know, the reference the me too movement. And I and they used the hashtag. And um the our the evening chronicle, you know, the Monegale um rang me and asked me about for a comment. And you know what? It the way they put it was and like I know the team there, so this is not a this is no reflection on them. Um just asked me about it. And so I gave them a very innocuous comment. I was actually in the gym at the time. I remember clearly I came out of a class because I spotted the number, I was like, hi, how are you doing? Deal with it all the time. And it got picked up by they they syndicated across and then it went across every single tabloid, and then it went- You're thinking, oh no, what's going on? Well, I kind of do know what the best thing was. I ended up on the when it actually went wild. I was by that point, I was in London, and I think it was it must have been just before I was becoming CIPR president, and I was in a board meeting. So I think it was like before I'd actually started my year as president. Um I sat, I'm sat in this well, and I've probably started going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And eventually I said, I'm sorry, I have to, I'm just gonna have to go and deal with this. There's something blowing up.

Chris Norton: 41:53

Yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 41:53

But it was hilarious because I was but all these comments people were on the table. No, nobody had noticed that that something was going on, like the in the news headlines. And um, so I went out and I'd literally gone globally viable because all those classic common commentators had given me the this stupid woman trying to ban fairy tales. It's just not what I'm saying.

Will Ockenden: 42:12

Pierce Hawk and Wade in and Katie uh Katie Hopkins.

Sarah Waddington: 42:16

Um I mean he literally retweeted me and sent a whole pile of people's my way. And um, all I'd said, all I'd said, including to the Chronicle, was that um fairy tales have always been meant as we're back to storytelling, we're not we're just saying, oh my god, Martin Sowell, I've come a butt I've just realized in my head I've come a 360. Storytelling is gonna hold me forever. I basically said storytelling and met, you know, like fairy tales were always used to warn young people. They've been a great way of making sure that people understand about risk and what have you. I said, but in this situation, you know, I think this would have been this would have been a really good in a couple of years' time because actually I could then have been talking to my kids about consent, but they're just too young. So like that's that was the premise of my argument, right? Just like this isn't an appropriate picture, but actually, fairy tales are really important because they have a really good use and actually they're a useful parenting tool. Not so according to the media. So not one of them fact-checked, it was just crazy Northeast mum wants to ban fairy tales. But it didn't just go across the UK. I mean, I was I it was just absolutely crazy. It went everywhere, like everywhere. I had courts from Australia, I had courts from Denmark, I had everywhere you can think of. Red Joe Fall today wanted me on, they wanted me on this morning. Like literally everything.

Chris Norton: 43:29

Or did you did you just think I'm gonna do this? Or did you think shit about retreat and hide in a tortoise show?

Sarah Waddington: 43:34

Well, it was awful, right? So I've got three stepkids, and that was a relatively new relationship. I didn't, and I was a bit like, oh god, am I mortifying them? Thankfully not, they were they were fantastic and really supportive because actually quite quickly there were some other voices that came out in support. So Jared Street Porter, but there was like Lad Bible and some really very side. So like all of a sudden it was like, oh, right, maybe she's not completely mad. Um, but it was really, really painful because um, you know, my uh ex um was a very private person and he was terribly uncomfortable with it. Um they as we know the media can be very unscrupulous of being to the house, have been through the bins, they'd gone down the street.

Will Ockenden: 44:16

So this really, this really spoiled it. Oh my god.

Sarah Waddington: 44:20

They went to they they found the head masters, they had the had the kids and they were in like a Capital Junior School, they found their head teacher's address and doorknock's wife. That's horrendous. I got and I still get them from time to time. This is how crazy it is. I got death threats, rape threats, um, told that people were going to report me so they should have my kids taken off me. Um Holly Willaboobies.

Chris Norton: 44:44

Yeah. Holly Willoughby.

Sarah Waddington: 44:45

Yeah, that's a reference of a prior age, right? But hello Holly Willoughby, um, who named her daughter after Disney princess, gave it what for.

Chris Norton: 44:53

Really?

Sarah Waddington: 44:54

Oh, oh yeah.

Will Ockenden: 44:55

I mean And and it's it's half everyone's acting on half inf half a story at the time.

Sarah Waddington: 44:59

But it's that what's that um expression, something about the uh like and travel twice around the world uh round the world before the truth gets its boots on or something?

Chris Norton: 45:07

She was kind of cancelled off the back of the. Oh, oh yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 45:10

And then and so how because I know people that I've worked with forever in the in the Northeast marketplace, yeah, or who are known for a long time, because it's a small community, going, Oh you stupid. I used to get you stupid girl. And then what was really interesting though, I had a raft of community right behind me going, You go, girl, that's absolutely right. You keep that tweet because the people kept saying, just take the tweet down and they can't use it. But no, because fundamentally it's what I believe is my value. So I'm not not doing that, it's true. Yeah, and what it's the misreporting, isn't it? So did I challenge it? Did I go onto any of those things? Because loads of people said, you know, you could probably end up as a like an influencer on what I mean.

Will Ockenden: 45:45

People springboard a whole entire career on their basis, don't they?

Chris Norton: 45:48

But do you know what? Um, I just was very considerate of the people in my life around me. Like Stephen walked into the office the next day, he was working at Ketchum at the time. Yeah, I remember that. And they have like a row of papers out, and I was on the front four of them. Oh my god. I mean, he wasn't bothered, he was phenomenal. He was fucking fantastic. I mean, like he cropped me up because it was all I cannot tell you how old I've do you know what it is, and there's a book about this, and I'm trying to rocking my brains to think of the name of the author and it'll come back to me. But there's a book about people who've who've gone violent and been shamed, and the the shame is real. Like it took me a long time. And even now I feel a little bit prickly behind the eye, like because it's just it's like it's so thing. But then while I lost a piece of work, I then got three pieces of work because people went, love you, love your values. I'm backing you. Yeah, I'm totally, totally in. And so they should. I mean, if if if anybody you should be in a relationship with, it's a good time for it. It's another successful PR person. Like, because if I got if I did something wrong, and let's face it, it's been pretty close on this podcast. If we ended up going back, of course, this hasn't happened. He wouldn't back me, he'd just dump me down the down the I'd have to. I haven't got my wife to talk, so she's not she's not a professional communicator, you know what I mean.

Sarah Waddington: 46:56

Although, genuinely, uh, would I change it? Uh it was really hard. It was really, really hard. And um I I've there's still some scars, but you know what? I'm a much better practitioner for it, and I get a lot of shit in this role. You know, like there's a lot of troll. We had a stalker for three years, a genuine stalker. It went to You did, or the Stephen and I for three years.

Chris Norton: 47:20

From both of you.

Sarah Waddington: 47:21

Yeah. There's a lady we used to volunteer with who stalked us and it went to the Met. The Met cocked it up so the CPS couldn't, we couldn't get a to court uh and to get a restraining order put in place. But this was our life. But thankfully, because of the experience I had, that was more manageable. And this role, you know, you put your head again above their parapet, and you know, naturally, with that role, you have to be prepared for challenge and for conflict and some trolling. And I there is somebody in the US that trolls me absolutely regularly. And while there are some days it absolutely bothers me, I I there are actually also days where I just think, if that's the best you've got, you know, I've been through an awful lot worse. And and also what I when I was in still in an advisory position when I was in agency, it meant that I could speak with authority on that subject.

Chris Norton: 48:06

Absolutely, yeah. 100% that's what I was thinking. Like, no one can you've been through that process. You can advise somebody who's really struggling through horrendous, horrible. So it's the the that's the worst worst side of media. And the thing about social media is it promised such a great thing, and it's actually a lot of the stuff that you've talked about while you've been sat here, is all the bad side of social media because the Americans not the whole the Americans, but the I did about digital PR. The billionaires, the billionaires behind the social platforms have pushed it towards advertising, polarized everything, and it's created the the trolling side of it, is the stuff that I absolutely hate. But you're right, you can't. The problem is when you're well known, whatever it is through fame or through infamous, what's the word? Infamy. Infamy. Um you're not gonna not everyone's gonna like your view, are they?

Sarah Waddington: 48:54

No, and you know what? Sometimes it's good because you'll be doing if it's certain when we launched Socially Mobile, um, our community interest company, um and uh talked about it being for underrepresented groups, but particularly those from um lower socio-economic backgrounds, said more disadvantaged people. Um, and I talked about the high prevalence of um independently school people in PR. So it's like 27%, the national average is 7%, it's exceptional, right? Um it's making it very difficult for people to get into this career. Um, the point is that sometimes you know you're doing the right thing when you're annoying the right people. So I got loads of people coming out, angry white men they were in droves going, you again, stupid girl, because that comes up a lot, you stupid girl, we don't need this, you're tilting at wimmels. I mean, I'm just like, oh but once you get them, you know. You know you're doing it. You know you're out for the right thing. But then, you know, people are allowed their view. I often find that if I've got someone who's incredibly challenging, you know what? I want to hear it because they're doing it because they care. Like if you get someone who's constantly griping out something, you've got to give them the time. Then there are some people that you'll never suit, and you've just got to say, do what you like. And and that kind of thing, it's like when you've got a new new baby and everybody's full of advice, it's like smile, nod, move on.

Will Ockenden: 50:09

That's a really um I read somewhere that um I understand what I think, I want to understand what they think. And that's the you know, that's that's the reason, for example, I read um all media. I need to understand what everybody thinks. And as a PR professional, you you need to understand diversity. That's you put yeah.

Sarah Waddington: 50:25

We do we were in all in our little echo chambers. Brexit. And that you know, that's exactly what happened. People weren't listening to the views. And again, back to what I'm saying, PR is in the perfect place for brokering understanding. We don't have to broker agreement, we have to broker understanding.

Will Ockenden: 50:40

If people want to connect with you or want to connect with the PRCA, how can they get in touch?

Sarah Waddington: 50:44

Would love that. I mean, like I say, we've got this big mission, it's an important one. I need people to unify behind us. We all have also had a tricky couple of years, so I don't mind saying we had some churn. The more members who join, the more, like I say, we have a consistent, unified voice, and also the fees help me deliver what we need as an industry, which is fundamentally how we get more people to invest in our services. So, yeah, please do shout. Um, it's PRCA.global if you want to have a look at the website. We've got um a great storytelling conference coming up, actually, which is called Don't Uh Don't Flood the Internet. Um, we've got we bought a special keynote from Sarah Waddington. Don't flood the internet.com is the URL. And so please have a look at that. And obviously, people are very welcome to um connect with me on LinkedIn. That's probably the fastest way. Um my WhatsApp gets deluged, so do you know it's either email or probably a LinkedIn DM slide there.

Will Ockenden: 51:38

Fantastic. Thank you for that, excellent. Thank you for having me.