Welcome And The Big Claim

Chris Norton 0:00

This week's a cracker, and my guest today ran creative for the biggest advertising company on the planet. And he was effectively shown the door from two of the most coveted jobs in the creative sector and sold every share he owned in the business the day his new boss walked in. This is Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the show that teaches you growth from failure. And today, John O'Keeffe on why creativity is the only number that matters in marketing. I think you're going to find this one really interesting. So sit back, relax, and enjoy. John O'Keeffe, welcome to the show.

John O'Keeffe 0:42

Nice to be here. Hello.

Chris Norton 0:44

I'm so glad you're on the show, John. Mick Mahoney had nothing but big things to say about you, and I've read a lot about you now and your history and your expertise. But in simple terms, for the listeners who might not know you, because not everyone's from Ad Land, what did you actually do as the ma as the man in charge of creativity for the world's biggest ad group?

John O'Keeffe 1:07

Well, I've I did I did what I've always done really. I did what I've done since I was about 20 at Saatchi's and being given trade ads to do. I sort of either come up with ideas or say to people who come up with ideas or think they come up with ideas, that's good, that's not good enough, go again. Um and just raise the standard. It was um I think by common consent at the time, um WPP was rather disparagingly referred to as the the the mediocre one, and all the press coverage I got when I went there was what on earth was he thinking? No one. I mean, they're very the industry is full of people who always carry the epithet the legendary. So the legendary Neil French was a predecessor who who was who was there and he's got, you know, I mean, he's famed in our industry anyway, but um the dials didn't move, and Martin so Martin did move and got rid of him, um, and then somebody else came along and the dials didn't move. Uh, and then my time was kind of up at BBH in a in a fairly um surprising meeting was suddenly called, I think on the morning of the 14th Agency of the Year award the agency got, and I was told we're just not where we need to be creatively, which does beg the question where exactly do you want to be? So uh luckily for me, there was uh a getaway car outside being driven by Martin, so off I went to WPP and set about as he gave me two KPIs creativity and effectiveness. Um and I met with what's the best way? I met with resistance in certain quarters. There was a

Raising Standards At WPP

John O'Keeffe 2:50

very comfortable, we kind of know we're not punching as high as Omnicom. That was the big that was they were the big players at the time, but you know, we were making a living and the client seemed happy enough. Why why do we have to listen to you? And I was saying, well, because technology is taking over. I mean, it's it's all digital now, there's so many channels, you you can't any longer afford just to be mediocre, otherwise we'll we'll we will lose, and that will be the end of WPP. So, this is the programme, this is the direction of travel. I'm gonna set Cannes as our benchmark because it's the only global show that everyone cares about, and why all the clients are there. And I was told we've just got to get past Publicis, and I said, no, no, we've got to get past Omnicom. Uh, and that's that's the direction of travel we we're going in, and those who are with me are with me, and those who aren't, I'm afraid we'll be uh managed out, as the euphemistically put it. Um and the trick, I think, was not to ask the creative directors to come and present at the annual Big Shindig in New York with all the companies there in Mars and making a big speech, you know, the sort of strategy conference, I think it's called. I said I want all the CEOs to do creative presentations about where they are, what their ambition is at Cannes next year, and they will be invited back next year to report on what they told us this year. And that concentrated a few might. So uh the Cannes performance went up, you know. We were still behind Omnicom, but um a couple of years later we won, and then we just kept winning.

Chris Norton 4:32

I mean, that's amazing. You sort of instead of going for aiming for for the people that were just slightly in front of you, because you were in third place, right? And and they were in second, but and but you went for first, and just I suppose that's the the classic aim for the stars and you'll hit the treetops, which is basically what you've done there. Pretty much great strategy though.

John O'Keeffe 4:50

Yeah, I just think you wouldn't, I just don't think we'd have I think we'd have stated in third if we'd said we'd just got to try to get to second. I mean a a good friend of mine called Will Awdry wrote a campaign for um I think Macallan whisty once, and there was all sorts of it was it had got first place in something or other. And if the line was Sydney, who cared? Who cares who came second? Uh, and it's true, you know, we all remember who's saying bolt, we just can't remember who was the runner up. So uh, you know, it was it was obvious to me that if we said let's just try and we didn't have to go very far to overtake publicists, we had to go a long way to overtake Omnicom, and and that was I thought what was needed because as I say that that what was coming around the corner and was already being talked about was all the fragmentation and the digital strategies and clients panicking about where should my messaging go and and AI was already being talked about, and towards the end of my time, WPP it was the only show in town, so to speak. So we had to we had to gear up for that, and and WPP was very much operating on a on a almost a 1950s model of the clients we're dealing with, they want tried and trusted sort of proctor type solutions, and we deliver them very efficiently all over the world. And what's wrong with that? And I think it was a Procter um CMO who made a speech and said and explicitly said this isn't good enough anymore. Not not aimed at WPP, but he said we've got to start winning canned lines, and I think that was the message that that hip honed to Martin. He said we've got to get you know, upweight our sort of crazy firepower and make this work. And Neil French, or sorry, the legendary Neil French hadn't uh hadn't done it. His successor uh hadn't done so, and so you know it was kind of a it was a it was a a poison chalice of sorts because it was just you know it wasn't like it was hitching the ground running, it was just hitching the ground face planting, and you had to sort of stand up stand up and get on with it.

Fixing BBH Under Pressure

Chris Norton 6:56

Yeah, because that's it. When you spoke to me before, you said it was like you're you you're you had two poison chalices, and I was gonna ask you like what was this what was the state of BBH's creative department when you took over?

John O'Keeffe 7:09

Well, it it was the create the creative part was dreadful, frankly. And don't and and it was riding on a reputation. It was riding on a reputation it had garnered in um in the mid-80s to mid-90s, and by the time we got round to around 2000, um, it was a mess. And everybody knew it, and everybody was uncomfortable, and the atmosphere was going toxic, and then a breakaway happened, and lots and lots of key senior players just walked. And that's usually the death knell. Um, creative director went uh and four or five big executives went with him, and everybody was trying to go, and clients were leaving, and I was told again explicitly, we're one client away now, one client goes, and I think it was identified as Scottish Power was a client. If we if we lose Scottish Power, it'll be shutters time.

Chris Norton 8:06

Um really

John O'Keeffe 8:07

and so I landed Scottish Power on the desk, and anyway, cut a long story short, three months later, Scottish Power said this is the best advertising they ever had, we're very happy. And I set about the grisly task, if you like, of of getting rid of quite a lot of people, which is new, you know. I I'd never been in that position, you know. I'd I come from a working class background, I wasn't meant to be uh I wasn't born to be a ruler, so to speak. In some cases, they are. Um, so I had to do that, and and then there wasn't a lot of money. You couldn't go out and say I'm uh Manchester City like, just buy every every major player in the world. So I had to find people in we call them sort of lesser agencies who were younger and hungry and just meet them and talk to them. I know you haven't got anything to show me because you haven't really had a chance, but if you do get a chance, I think you'll do fine. I think you'll be good. And that was the those were the calls I was kind of having to make. And we're getting people for you know the mid-20s, thousands as opposed to the 120,000 sort of people. And you know, I mean I look back on pretty well all of them went on to become stars, stars, yeah, really. I mean, world leaders and creative directors and and all the rest of it, they did they did incredibly well, and good for them, they got their chance and they took it.

Chris Norton 9:31

I mean, that says to me that you've got not only a creative, but you've got a good judge of character. Because if you're spot in people with genuine talent, and that's that's a thing, it's hard to do because there's everybody can have a cra cracking C V, um, but they can be shit as well. You know, there's people with cracking CVs that um you'll know that. Oh, yeah.

John O'Keeffe 9:51

Well, it's it's interesting, isn't it? Because it you say character, it was it was as much about creating an environment where you know it it was a happy ship. I mean it sounds sounds very bland, but if you've got a poisonous character, that tends to infect the whole place. And I don't think I consciously did it. I just met them, and if they were you know a good lunch companion and then made me laugh, and it was a convivial experience, and I thought these two are great, aren't they? You know, kind of thing. It's you know it's always a jury, a writer, and an art director. And I thought, you know, they'd get on with anyone. Um and by and large they did, you know, they they came in, and as I say, pretty well, pretty well all of them did brilliantly well.

Chris Norton 11:47

That's good. Um so in WPP in twenty two thousand eight, you you you you you've I've been seeing it's described as a creative desert. Um and an un uh now I need to say this correctly, unturn roundable oil tanker. So what the hell did you do to say yes? Why did you say yes? That sounds like a a job that nobody would want.

John O'Keeffe 12:14

Well, you know, there was there was the very there was the very big incentive of having two small children and having just been told by um uh messrs Hegerty and Bogle that uh my services were no longer required, and subsequently told. I mean, uh it was three months prior to that, I was told you'll be the you'll be the worldwide creator at the BBH in September. And by September it was uh a notable quote from Mr. Bogle was uh Sir Nigel, because of course who deserves a night more. Um he said, uh, yeah, you talk a good game, but it's just rhetoric. And I thought, there's no real game with this. And then I've just what what more could you do? The place was gonna craze down, and now it's you know, the share prices, treble and ruining everything going with campaign agency of the year three times in a row, it's never been done before, since um you know, so I I just think it's folly to fight with the infant items. My father used to say, so I was just lucky that uh I had to get a job, obviously. Um and it just coincided with um Martin saying we really want you to come to WPP. So, you know, and I guess if John Leonard said we really want you to come to Omnicom, um I might have done that. That's you know, that wasn't in the off thing, so I went to WPP. And you know, it's it's good to uh take on a challenge, I guess. It's good to you know, if I'd gone to Omnicom and it did really well, people say, Well, of course it did, it was always doing really well. Um WPP from some of the quotes you've got uh clearly wasn't, and and it was known not to be, and you know, it was just uh something to have a go at.

Chris Norton 13:57

It's like a to use a football analogy, it's like taking over, I don't know, like uh Man United when they're at the bottom, you know, the nid or Tottenham um that have been struggling that sort of analogy and then turning them around and getting them back in the Champions League, which is quite a nice touch.

John O'Keeffe 14:11

Yeah, and as an Arsenal fan, I've enjoyed Tottenham season knowing.

Chris Norton 14:15

I didn't realise you were an Arsenal fan. Oh god. Oh, in that case, we'll have to end the conversation there. No, I'm not a Tottenham fan, you're alright. Um, so yeah, uh what have we got here? So you you you made the network CEOs just said um front the creative presentations so that they owned each of the results. But how uncomfortable did that get? Because actually making CEOs get up and that is not a thing that they're used to presenting the creative route, is it? Was it was that really challenging?

John O'Keeffe 14:47

Um it was it was it was challenging, and there was uh you know WPP famously had teams, there was team this and team that, rather than you know, they had agencies obviously, but there was you know, Ford was team Ford, and you know, there was 20 or more team this, team that, team Vodafone. Um, and I remember the CEO of Team Ford, I think Ford was the biggest client, and he really wasn't having it at all. Ford was a very, very cozy, comfortable, very mediocre, frankly. And I didn't know who he was. I thought this

Forcing Leaders To Own Creativity

John O'Keeffe 15:21

is the great thing. I didn't know any of these people. I was just saying, this is what's gonna happen, guys. And uh, and then he just contacted me, phoned me out and said, Somebody, somebody's on the phone, okay, hello. I'm the CEO of Team Ford. Good for you. Do you know what do you know I can have you fired? He said, was his open gambling? I said, Oh, yeah, I didn't I didn't realise. I got hired by Martin, I've never heard of you. And he got on a plane and he came over. Uh and he called a meeting, and I was happy enough to join him in a meeting. And he said, uh he calmed down a bit.

Chris Norton 15:53

And he he obviously worked out when you get face to face, that tends to happen, doesn't it?

John O'Keeffe 15:57

He worked out what to say, and what he said was um, you know, Ford like what we do. If we say to Ford we've got to raise the creative standard and we've got to start winning at Cannes, Ford will fire us. And I'm thinking, yeah, what a what a what a cosy argument that is. But he persuaded Martin that it was too big a risk, and so I was kind of given a kind of hands-off Ford. And I said to Martin, one of these days, a good a good creative agency is gonna get in. We keep them at bay, but one of them is gonna get in and see the senior guys at Forge and say, if you gave us the business, we'd do it like this. And ultimately that's what happened, it was bound to happen, and it did. Um, I can't remember if it was Wieden, was it? Somebody got in, somebody good, I think it was Wieden, and said, Look, you know, the work you do is rubbish, you should do this. And they said, See you later, WPP. Um, you know, so what goes around? Um, but most CEOs, you know, got with the program, and I was I was helped enormously by Martin. Martin Mart Martin wanted this to happen. He brought me in to make this happen. I said, This is what needs to happen, and he was very supportive. And if I said I'm meeting some resistance here or there, he would um fire off a missive saying, John and I would like to see whatever the hell it was I told him we'd like to see.

Chris Norton 17:17

Nice.

John O'Keeffe 17:18

Uh, and we got to see it.

Chris Norton 17:21

Yeah, that's a well that's nice when you've got the backing of the main man, that makes a big difference, doesn't it? Because you've throwing your weight around when you're new and people trying to undermine you basically. Well, um, I can see that if you can get because you had Martin on Martin on side, yeah. So what's he like to work for day to day? Because obviously, I mean Martin is a is a juggernaut of the industry, not to use your word, uh John, but a legend. Um, what's he like to work on a day-to-day basis? Like if you were pointing directly into him, how was that?

John O'Keeffe 17:55

I always find him I almost found him perfect, perfectly reasonable. And um uh he he wasn't he wasn't there some of the time, you know, a lot of the time. Martin is never happier than when he's on a plane. I mean, you know, uh he um so you wouldn't know from one day to the next whether he'd be there, and then he was he was never happier than when he was phoning at three in the morning and saying, Could you be at Heathrow tomorrow at eight because there's a pitch going on, it's not going well. We need you to fly too. And then I I can remember doing a pitch, flying to a pitch and doing it at his behest really, really quickly. And we won and it wasn't going well, and I got there, and we I was just in storm in this hotel, did this stuff for a big bank. And uh and I said to somebody later, Oh yeah, and Hatter's pitch in um in Puan. And me saying, Oh yeah, where's that? And I said, I haven't the famous idea. I just got on a plane and landed somewhere and was carted off to his place, did the pitch, went back to the airport, flew home. And this minute, I can't is it a stone? Oh no, it's somewhere. Uh so yeah, he was he was kind of they would he would he was he was very nice with me, but you would sometimes he wasn't in, and and and suddenly an Irish red setter would run into the building as mad as they are, these dogs, and jump all over you. You think, oh god, here he is. I think his name was Savage comically,

The Ford Fight And Risk

John O'Keeffe 19:13

and uh and and uh it was Martin's dog, so he thought, Oh Martin will be in a minute, and so yeah, then he then he wandered in. Somebody said to me, you know, he's he's um you're lucky because he thinks he can do everybody else's job better than them, except for you. He doesn't think he could sit there and come up with uh an idea or a slogan or what have you. So you're sort of lucky in that respect. Um but I never had any any issues. I do I do remember very, very early on if you wanted a a story, nervous, kind of week one, and they come to the meeting room, we're just discussing the strategy for a big pitch somewhere, and it's gonna it's gonna involve loads and loads of companies. And I'm thinking, oh, I need to know, but I know the names of that forum. And I got into this room and I thought I'm gonna get I'm gonna get found out there. Um, he's gonna ask me what I think of XYZ operating out of Namibia or something. Uh, and I'm not sure I can pass this one. And there was a person talking to him, saying, I'm gonna use them and them and them and then and them. And Martin was nodding sagely, and eventually he said, Um, is that one of ours? And I thought, if he doesn't know them all, I'll I'm in I'm okay. That's like no idea, Mark, don't look at me. But from then on, I was I was I felt a bit more comfortable. Like what was so it was so big, it was it was so everywhere, and every week another company got bought, so you just couldn't keep up with it.

Chris Norton 20:46

Yeah, I'm not surprised. Yeah, so Martin Sorrel versus Mark Read, then what did each man fundament fundamentally get right and which and what did they get wrong, do you think?

John O'Keeffe 20:58

Well, the clip answer would be Martin hired me and it became the holding company of the decade creatively. Mark fired me and it lost maybe 75% of its value, so there's a fairly big difference. Um the irony of it is it's uh it's Donald Rumsfeld's fault. And people will say, What the hell are you talking about?

Chris Norton 21:22

Is this the known unknowns?

John O'Keeffe 21:24

Yeah, he did that speech about the known knowns, the known unknowns. Um and there were lots of names. Suddenly Martin was gone, and lots of names were being proffered, and and everyone was thinking, How on earth? You know, we're in such trouble now. There was a panic, you know, it's it's you know, without Martin, there wasn't really a WPP, you'd think. He was the soul of the place. Um, and all these people were

What Martin Sorrell Was Like

John O'Keeffe 21:50

being touted, and we thought, well, they not they don't know anything about this business, they don't know anything about the shape of it, they don't know what who works where, they don't know the names, they don't know the people. By this stage, I was kind of in Scogs. I knew people, I knew the geography of it, or I mean who to talk to about what. So we sort of so a bunch of us went out, and a lot of people thought I was joining Martha, and they're telling me, director's white face, we know you're going. I said, I'm not, I know that I know the kind of business he's he's going to try and set up, and it's not really my thing. Um and they said, Look, you know, we've got to we've got to make it Mark Read because he he he he's he knows the shape of the business, he's got it, it'll be continuity in that sense, and he knows what he doesn't know. So he won't interfere with you. So I swallowed that, and then they thought, well, you know the board, because I just presented to the board a few times about various things, and you know, not a marketer among them, but you know, good fun. Um so I I kind of I kind of went to the board and said, Look, you know, the feeling in the camp is amongst the senior players is it's gotta be Mark because you know, for all the reasons I just outlined. And I don't know. They weren't going to make him anyway, so I'm not taking the blame. Sorry, that WPP and all the thousands who lost their jobs. It's not entirely my fault. But I did, I did, I did say, you know, I did swallow this. He knows where he doesn't know line. And he became the CEO. Uh, and next thing I know, he's hired some some woman from a syn from Walmart from the supermarket, and she's just directing me and telling me how to be a chief creative officer. And I'm thinking, well, what the hell do you know about it, frankly? Um, and he did interfere, and it was to the detriment, I would say, um, of the business. And I kind of knew we had another strategy conference, and I stood up and did my speech and said, Look, you know, we're sort of lagging a bit, we've got to push again, and we've got to make sure we stay number one because who cares if you're number two, kind of thing. And then somebody from the floor asked a question, and Mark had somehow managed to stay on the stage after his really chat. And an IT guy said something like, Do you think we focus too much on creativity and creative awards? And Mark said, Yeah, I'm torn by that. And I thought, that's my uh that's my legs cut off at the knees in front of the entire company. Um so I just I just came back to London and immediately spoke to a lawyer and said, Look, within weeks I'll be called into a meeting, and Mark will utterly utterly banal. This doesn't working, it is exactly what he said. Um and I was just told, look, don't don't start a row. Don't don't don't do anything, just accept what he says and saying, let's how you feel, you're the CEA. Um, and and leave. And then we'll deal with it after that. And they didn't uh it means a very good job. The smartest the smartest thing I did was sell all my shares immediately. I think they were around the the £19 a share mark at the time. I think they're hovering around free now or something. Um yeah, I mean it was um no, I was I was I told people ever after to lie. I told people forever after I I met Mark for a meeting and he said this just isn't working. To which I responded, What part of Creative Holding Company of the Decade is the bit that's not working for you? But sadly, I didn't really say that. I wish I had.

Chris Norton 25:33

Yeah, it's a good line. We've all we've all got stuff like that where we've had a difficult meeting.

John O'Keeffe 25:38

Yeah.

Chris Norton 25:39

I mean, we've all you've got to uh I th I don't think you learn much unless you've been fired once, I think.

John O'Keeffe 25:44

Yeah, no, I I took the advice and just quietly left and and I literally walked out of his office, walked to my desk, picked up my bag, and walked out of the building and I haven't been vaccinated.

Chris Norton 25:54

It's crazy. It's crazy. And so, I mean,

Mark Read And Getting Pushed Out

Chris Norton 25:57

we'll get back a bit into it, but today, what do what do you do today then? You work for yourself, right? You're freelance now. So, like who do you work for now then? And and how do people work with you? If if there's m anyone marketing people listening to this, because you clearly got it, what what do you do for people now then?

John O'Keeffe 26:15

You know what? I I've got a LinkedIn profile, you've probably seen it, and it's quite short, and I'm I'm pleased it's quite short. I I think you know, I I I come up with ideas that drive business. I mean, I I do I do marvel, and sometimes I even know the people who are writing it. Some people write on LinkedIn um capabilities, and you think, well, I know they're gonna say marketing strategy, and then they're gonna say grand building, and then they're gonna say ideation. I don't think he ever came up with that word, but ideation. And then and then you see I can't be able to read it, it just goes on and on and on. I mean, you think, is there anything you can't do? I mean, if I go through this, I'm gonna find scaffolding them origami and talking to the dead, you know, it's just just endless capabilities. I I I don't have endless capabilities. If anybody wants if anybody's got a business problem where their brand isn't doing as well as they think it ought to, then you know where I am? I'm on LinkedIn. I I I keep it very, very simple. And you know, I think if people wanted a CV, I say, well, my C V is WPP 2010 to 2020 versus WPP 2020 to 2026.

Chris Norton 27:27

Ouch.

John O'Keeffe 27:29

Well, yeah, I'm I'm I mean it's James O'Brien in the morning, is is very is very good. He's got this great line, he always says it's uh it's it's not um your opinion, it's counting. So, you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm not trying to be braggadacious, I'm simply stating the bold fact. WPP was a creative, as you say, desert, and then it was seven years running holding company of the air can and creative holding company of the decade. That was what I was bought in to do. It had a similar record at the effies. Um, you know, I'm not I'm just I'm simply stating the facts and then and then I'm not there anymore.

Chris Norton 28:04

So do you like working for yourself now though?

John O'Keeffe 28:06

Like a freelance writer. I do, um you know, I I kind of I like I I I I've always just liked the sort of um you know, what's the problem, and then just leave me alone. I might even go for a long walk while I think about it, or I I'll I'll I I I like working um you know with one other person, but if that one other person was Russell Ramsay, who with whom I worked for a decade, I guess, as my art director. But you know, you forget titles and you just sit down and turn you and you become a symbiotic kind of thing. Uh I can do that. I don't really want to work with anybody else. So without without Russell, I'm happier, I'm happier on my own. And Russell's still going strong and still very, very good. Um, so you know, I mean, yeah, I I kind of sit there and people come to me, you know, it's it's it's mad. The Labour Party came to me when they had the massive anti-Semitism problem and said, uh, can you help us with this? So I did, and you know, within I think two days, they had something in the foot, a full page in all the broadsheets, and the Prime Minister waved it at uh Jeremy Corbyn under Jeremy Corbyn's nose at PMQ's the following day. So I was thinking, well, you know, people people want an effectiveness story. There he is. I sort of, you know, two days later. Um, you know, and uh I did a a couple of thin bits and pieces for uh T Blair. I'm not sure I'd do it anymore because he's joined the the Board of Peace with Donald Trump and all sorts of not very peaceful people, so I think they'll stay clear of that. Um yeah, anybody who I find interesting, and the great thing about being uh doing it for myself is that people come to me and say, you know, we've got this fantastic new cigarette brand. Good luck, see ya. You know, it's kind of I don't have to do no to be fair, um, I was never made to do anything I didn't want to be, that's up WPP. So, you know, I I get to choose and you know, and I get to say, I'm not gonna do anything this week, I'm just gonna, you know, go for long walks and it's nice and sunny and have a lovely time with my wife and kids, and you know, next week we'll pick it up again.

Chris Norton 30:27

Okay, cool. Um, what sort of out of all the work that you've done from all the different places, which bits are you most proud? Which bits of work are you most proud of? Like actual work-wise?

John O'Keeffe 30:39

Um, well, I wrote Keep Walking for Johnnie Walker, which was a Diageo sell-off. It just wasn't going anywhere. You know that how stores work, and it doesn't make the money on the shelf, they won't give it the shelf space. And they they all said to Diageo, we're

Freelance Life And Choosing Clients

John O'Keeffe 30:54

not going to stop this product anymore. And they gave it one more shout. Um, and you know, um at BBH this was, and working with redoubtable figures like uh Vic Kendall and uh Q Bailey, and of course, upon that account I met my wife, so you know, fond memories. Um, and it was uh you know, it was a good it was a good experience. It was tough, you know. It's funny when you it's it's a strange thing with advertising. Once you've done it and come up with it, like keep walking, it's about progress, and there's a walking guy on the bottle. You meet people and say, Oh, yeah, that's what I'd have done. Yeah, but they didn't do it in 200 years, but you'd have done it, did you? Anyway, um so yeah, that that that's obviously a huge success story. I did uh loads of work with Russell for Audi, which um you know is in uh the Hall of Fame of somebody saying, you know, Audi was synonymous with Renault and Ford and Fiat, and it needed to be synonymous with BMW and Mercedes, and uh the press work of that era is what drove it to that place. And one of the ads we did was voted the best ad in the world. Um just an ad with uh a car that was very economical, and we just put a a camel looking under the bonnet and was like, this thing goes a long way on a small amount of liquid, and the camel was aghast at how efficient it was. Which you know, it I don't think it took very long, but newly somebody somewhere thought it was the best thing they'd ever seen. God bless them.

Chris Norton 32:29

Yeah, nice. That's not nice. Um, and you all it just shows about mistakes and what people have done that where they've made mistakes. So, what mistakes are you uh have you made that you you would be willing to share?

John O'Keeffe 32:42

Well, it's harsh, and I don't want to get sued, but who cares? I I think I think going to the board, I think believing that he won't interfere with you in your work, Mark Read thing was a big error. I think going to the board and saying, I think I didn't really believe he would be that great. Um, but I've I sort of said, Yeah, give it to him. And given the choices that were being proffered at the time, it's difficult to think of what else I could have done. Um that's a big macro thing, if you like, and you know, I'm sure Mark would say, you know, I you know, we could COVID happened. Everyone trust to say it was COVID that what done us in. Or, you know, there'd be lots of factors. Well, I just I just gently point out to everybody, or every factor you could point out, was affecting Publicist as well. They seem to, they seem to do pretty well. Um and I would have wanted to, you know, we won the Volkswagen pitch, and I would have wanted to stay with it because it was like, you know, Volkswagen is the granddaddy of all great avatars to my mind. The Oscar in my business look back at that, even back to the 1960s and say, that's when it became fun and engaging and you know, irreverent, and all the great things that all the great advertising is. That's where they all learned it from. And they'd had it for 70 years, and it was another pitch that was going nowhere. I got parachuted in. Martin made uh this company called Possible, which really should have been called Passable, even that might want an Owen claim. Um, they were in charge of the pitch and they weren't going anywhere, and and then we won it, and it would have been nice uh to have been allowed to stay on it. I'm not sure that anything great has has emerged as a result of WPP winning it, so you know it's one of those. Um but in uh funnier stories, uh I think you know, less funny story, I think, but possibly uh staying too long at places, you know, lots of people you'd oh, and then I was they've done 10 agencies. I have I did Sarches, BBH, and WPP. And you know, you people say, well, you know, as soon as you made WPP number one, you shouldn't have gone to every you know recruiter and headhunter in the world and said, I'm the guy who made it number one. I want a solid gold hat. Um uh but I didn't. Um and I would have liked to I didn't at the time Martin said

Work That Changed Brands

John O'Keeffe 35:11

the relocation package is amazing, and I said, sorry, can I stop you there? I'm not relocated from anywhere. Um and looking back, I wish I had now. I wish I'd gone to New York, but would have been a great experience, and uh, I didn't. I've known lots of people who went to New York and didn't like it and were six months in and shouldn't be at least hadn't come here, but you know, you never you never know. I've I've I have a feeling I might have um liked it a lot, but yeah, we'll do it.

Chris Norton 35:36

Uh it's quite interesting what you're saying about the longevity side of things, because there's a big argument about like um when brands keep their creative agencies for a longer period, those brands tend to do miles better. And and but we all know that a CMO or a it tends to change jobs everybody three years. So there's a there's a this there's two sort of there's a bit of a dichotomy there. How do you think when someone's at the top, how do you think they should know what that perfect moment is to leave? When do you think it is?

John O'Keeffe 36:08

They bottle the answer to that. Um lots of people have you know, you see, you know, you mentioned football earlier, you see a lot of a lot of managers who've done really, really well at somewhere like Brighton or Crystal Palace, and then they get the the big nod to go to Man United or Liverpool or you know somewhere, and it's it's just different. And it's not the land of milk and honey, and they're not as great there, and the crowd get on their back straight away and they're out, you know. So um it's not it's not timidity on my part, it might be lackadaisical laziness. I was quite comfortable, I was I was quite well paid. Um I things were going well, I was you know picking up the the holding Kogong in front of the entire world every year. Um, you know, we're working with you know, working directly, literally having lunch with um Vice President Al Gore and discussing the environment and having meetings um in a hotel next to the White House with the global CEO Indra Nooyl of Pepsi because she'd had a meeting in the White House just prior. And we think, well, I'm in this industry, I do this this creative part of it, and these people are interested, these very, very big senior players are interested in what I have to say. Why would I want to junk that and go and do something else? This is this is all going pretty well. I mean, you know, when everyone said, Oh, we all think you're going with Martin, I knew I wasn't, I knew Martin wanted I knew the sort of thing he wanted to do, and it wasn't my thing. But nonetheless, that was probably probably would have been the moment to go. I could have sort of thought, well, the Donald Rumsfeld argument might work, it might not, but you know, God bless Mark, he's not, he's not Captain Charisma, and it's never gonna be it's never gonna be what it what it's been up until now. Um and we're currently the only company of the decade, I probably should have said, you know, hello artist I do or John Wren, you know, send me a parachute, but I didn't.

Chris Norton 38:12

And what's so you mentioned AI, obviously, it's all anyone talks about in marketing these days. What do you think AI is going to replace advertising creatives, or do you think it's just only the mediocre ones that are getting replaced by AI?

John O'Keeffe 38:26

AI can't have an idea. And I've I've had this row, literally, people say yes it can. It can't, it just it just cannot do that. That's the thing it can't and can do everything else. So when people say, Will the holding companies collapse? Um very probably, frankly. They you know, because somebody said anyone with an iPhone is an ad agency now. Um he learned when he leave, you know, the the the sort of warm embrace of those people that want to do creative stuff that actually, you know, when people say, now bring in the creative, they don't mean what I grew up thinking they meant. Now it's just uh here's Dory, she runs a hairdressing salon in Hull, and her address is this, and this is how you contact her online or whatever, and that's the creative. And I'm not sure every every country is that is like this, but probably most. 52% of our GDP derives from companies of 10 people or less, or fewer, my mother would. Um, and they don't need a keep walking or a campaign for real beauty or you know, a huge you know, campaign for millions and millions and millions. They just they need they need to be in all the right places on social and just say, This is what I am, this is who I am, this is what I do, here's how you get hold of me. That's that's the creative now. And AI can do that, you know, instantly and can optimize it constantly, 24-7. Uh, can target it absolutely perfectly, can keep on checking out that is it working well on this on this um platform, or should I move more to that, or should I 20% there and 50% there and 30 cent here, where not? You know, it'll do that, and and there are that's thousands and thousands of people's jobs there, you know, media placement, targeting specialists, you know, media buyers, and all the rest of it. They they they kind of they must know that for the most part, AI can do what they do. Um, but AI won't say, I keep saying this to people, I always use this one. Um AI is never gonna say market, that sounds a bit like Meerkat. And yet, Compare the Market was the was the the Ninkin on the block, you know, Go Compare was the big player, and that's reversed, and that's because somebody said market sounds a bit like Meerkat. And you know, that that's that's

Mistakes And Staying Too Long

John O'Keeffe 41:00

never gonna be AI can't do that now, and I don't think it ever will, frankly, because it's just too human and too mad. And AI is uh computing in general is is is very, very linear and serious and and knows, you know, the um you know the kind of uh what do they call it, the uh the chat GPT, things like that, they're sort of um generative AI. I will say it's not generative, it's re-generative. It scrapes everything. And if it say I need a beer campaign for my Australian lager, it will say Australians wouldn't give a forex for um you know for a foster's, you know, whatever. It'll just it'll just regurgitate and compile what it knows about Australian lager advertising and just give you something that you it's already been done because it can't do something new.

Chris Norton 41:56

Yeah, and it's the the thing is the whole thing is um being dull and boring costs more money in advertising spend than anything else. It's like ten times more expensive. It's you need to be different, stand you right. It's the madness, it's the it's that sort of it's the X factor, I would put the human touch. Something, especially with the brilliant creative.

John O'Keeffe 42:18

The agencies and the holding companies need to stop wanging on about AI to the exclusion of all else, because otherwise you're gonna say, well, Omnicom, Publicist, Havas, WPP, et al. They're gonna go toe-to-toe on AI with Alibaba, Meta, you know, um every every kind of major player, Alibaba and um Meta, and um, what's the other one?

Chris Norton 42:47

Anthropic, ChatGPT, OpenAI. All of these, all of these, all of these players, and and they're obviously from get-go, they're AI businesses. They're not they're not gonna, you can't, you can't say we are an AI business just like you after a hundred years of not being that. And so they ought to say, you know, well, the thing you can't do is this creative thing. And they admit they can't do it, but they just say, well, there's enough, there's enough business that just just requires very, very smart targeting and timing and our platform, and you know, we'll um we'll make our money that way, and they are making their money that way, and they will always beat the holding the ad holding companies at that. So, so I think you might want to sort of look at the the pricing models and say, you know, I remember being told, you know, at BBH, BBS, very expensive, very expensive, and even then thinking, you're not, we're we're better than free, because whatever you paid the agency for keep walking, you're now the number one Scotch brand in the world. And you eight five years later, they said we've got a billion dollars of extra say it. So, how you could, you know, that's you know, the campaign for real beauty for Dove has been huge for that brand, you know, and they probably paid Ogilvy a lot of money in their terms to come up with that, but they've reaped the reward. So I just think the agencies need to stick to their guns on that front and say, you know, we we will utilize AI for every single thing it can do to the best possible advantage of our clients, but the thing we do that they don't do is we'll say it's it's meerkat or it's keep walking or it's the campaign for real beauty or was up for for a beer. I mean, yeah, AI is not gonna do that. No, same in PR to be honest. And for for all the CMOs and head of marketing that are listening, what's the one question to ask um before signing off an agency's big creative idea? What do you say?

John O'Keeffe 44:49

Well, at the moment, the big question they ask is how much. Um they probably should be asking how effective. And if we're honest, you know, it's it's still uh a slight bet. We pretty sure that keep walking. Um, there was a lot of strategic thinking about you know, if people go to parties, they take Gina, they take vodka, they don't take whiskey. Whiskey is more contemplative, people sit and sip it, and what are they doing? They're thinking about where they've got to and where they're gonna get to. It all sort of added up, and so we thought progress and keep walking was a very good bet, but it was a bet. All things are like are a bet. Um, so they can say, you know, they're with that agency because they chose that agency based on presumably what that agency had done in the past, either for them against another brand, or had done for other brands that he admire, and so there's a degree of trust there. So the CMO, I don't know that there is a specific question because you know, if it was me, I'd be saying, Can you guarantee me that this is going to increase my um sales by 83% in the third quarter of next year? To which the answer is no, you can't. I mean, I do this sort of stuff for Bain. Um, and Bain at one point said to me, Can you come and do a sort of creative presentation to um this financial crowd of kind of private equity people? And to say I walked off to the sound of my own feet would would be an understatement. I was um I'm kind of giving it everything and showing them all the great things that had happened and things I'd done, things I hadn't done, things I liked, um, you know, funny stuff, serious stuff, stuff that had worked. Um and they just sat there stony faced throughout. And and then anybody got any questions? And all the questions were literally like it was like doing an A-level maths. They were saying

AI Versus Human Ideas

John O'Keeffe 46:55

that thing with a mere cat, what percentage increase in business did that yield in the third quarter of 2019? I don't know. We're just gonna say over time, that was the interloper, it's now the big player in that market. What's not to like about that? But they just they're very, very nitty-gritty questions, and that's that's I think AI's advantage, if you like. AI against those metrics appears to be very, very definitive. This is what we do, this is how we optimise, this is you know, where we'll put your work, where we'll put your message in front of exactly the right people at exactly the right time. It all seems guaranteed, and that's that's their advantage. Our advantage, I would say, is yeah, but you know, look look at the look at the history of the great work. That's what we do. It can't do that, you know, taper pick.

Chris Norton 47:55

Well, yeah, I mean, my god. I mean, I the I'm finding I'm finding the AI discussion, the more it's going on, the more the more briefs I'm seeing done by AI as well. And you can see I'm a mile away. I'm just finding the whole I'm actually more and getting more and more confident that good good human creativity is still gonna win the day, like you said. Otherwise, you otherwise you're just gonna be vanilla.

John O'Keeffe 48:20

I'll tell you one one thing that surprised me, and then I got a further surprise. Some I I did, I won't mention who AST. They were struggling with something, or they said, Look, we need a creative source for this, we haven't got a lot of time. I get that a lot. Um, so I came up with something, and they were really, really pleased. And I well, I was pleased, they were pleased, good. And then and the guys literally said straight to me, we'll we'll tell the client AI came up with that. And I told someone, and it will come as no surprise, it was Russell, yet again, my old art director and cham. Uh I said to him, You wouldn't believe what's just happened. And they said, We'll tell the client AI did that. And he said, I get told that all the time. So there's a lot of kind of uh bullshit out there.

Chris Norton 49:11

I hope people are listening to this because that just shows you that I've we we've had I had my first um one of my team members have their first question ever um about as in could we just get AI to write all the PR materials that you guys do? Because that would bring the cost down, and then you guys could just send it all out. We're all like, uh no, that's not how it works. Um, and I think what you the points you've just illustrated there show why that shouldn't be the case. Some things it's great at, and some things it's just bloody not. Um, I mean, John, I could talk to you all day. Um, what's um what's one belief about creativity you wish you had understood far earlier? Because everybody on this show listens to everybody who listen listens to this show is into creativity, but how does it come about? What's the one thing that you wish you'd understood about it earlier?

John O'Keeffe 50:02

Well, I I would say to I would say to young people coming into it who are who are um despite AI and all the noises around them, they just want to say, I've just had this great idea. Um be confident, be a lot more confident than I was. When I start when I started Sarchans, um I mean I can remember doing work that I now look back on and go, God, that was good. I'm glad I did that. Um not that I kept it, city stuff, but uh I can remember being so scared at the time because I was you know straight out of the sticks and into London. Um, very kind of working class background, and suddenly I met Saarchi and Sarchi, and you know, and you've got to go and see the great whoever the hell it was at the time, and say it's a it's a difficult thing. You got hit, you lay your soul on the line. I I've what have you got? You know, it's tough. I've got this, this is my idea, and you'd be panicking in the end, and then they'd say, Yeah, good, okay. Uh go go to the studio and so we'll get it mocked up, we're gonna find the client, and very, very matter of fact, but you know, they were very relieved that you'd done it because otherwise don't up against the deadline, they had to get it done elsewhere, and but there's no kind of oh well done. It was never what it was never very effusive. Um, so you can easily feel, I suppose, especially from a sort of a not particularly um born with a silver spoon background, um slightly unnerved by these very, very big figures in the industry. Um and so you know, have a bit of confidence, you are the person who's actually coming up with the idea, and and remember this you're on a very, very small minority. If you're just starting out, well done, congratulations, keep it up. Um, you know, and always believing yourself.

Chris Norton 52:01

Thanks, mate. And um, we ask one the final question. We ask every guest this on the show. You've been on the show now, um, you've got to say your piece. If you were me, who's the next person that you would invite on this show and why? Mark me. You didn't even think about that.

John O'Keeffe 52:20

Well, you could say, Well, I've I've heard what O'Keefe had to say, and here's my here's my comeback. You know, I don't know. Um you know, I mean, who who you do you normally get sort of just marketing creatives or anybody?

Chris Norton 52:37

Yeah, it could be anybody, founders, marketing creatives. We get people in PR, comms, marketing, depends that you know, and an ad land like you. So it depends on um any anybody that can has got an interesting story to tell, basically.

John O'Keeffe 52:52

Well, I can remember before the last election, uh going to the Labour Party and telling them, you know, don't go into this election saying change, don't go into an election just saying the word change, which they were gonna do in a deep. And the reason I had was it's instant. People are having a tough time, and you've said change. They vote for you on a Thursday, you're in government on Friday, the following Tuesday, then all they're already saying, you said change. It's the same. And two years later, it's the same. You know, I mean they've been some, they've done some stuff, but they needed to build in whatever they said had to have a time element so that they could say we've done this and this and we're working towards the suddenly uplands of that. So change was just was just too instant, and to that extent was wrong, but they weren't listening, they were very, very focused on

What CMOs Should Ask

John O'Keeffe 53:45

them, you know, that as a as their as their big claim. So it would be interesting if you were to there's so many of them who claim to be the the head of comms. I could give you five all say they're their head of commons, but it'd be good to get one of those people in and say, looking back, you know, do you think change was exactly the right message for the Labour Party? Because it's sort of tangentially creative, but um, you know, they're um I'd love to I'd love to hear them sort of say, yeah, I think it worked really well. It's it doesn't look that way from anybody else's point.

Chris Norton 54:19

No, I don't know if the the the lifespan of a pr prime minister now has gone from average of about eight years to about eighteen months, doesn't it?

John O'Keeffe 54:28

Yeah, um how many lettuces is the Keir Starmer?

Chris Norton 54:32

Exactly, yeah. Well a few more than that lady. Yeah, Liz. Liz didn't last very long. Right. Well, um thanks so much for that, John. That was really great. If if people want to get a hold of you, what's the best way to get hold of you?

John O'Keeffe 54:45

Right then, Nick. Um LinkedIn, I guess. Get me on LinkedIn. Um if you get me on LinkedIn and what by email, I'll unless your Bangsman hedges, I'll probably give it to you.

Chris Norton 55:00

Okay. Well, thanks very much.