Welcome And Guest Setup

Chris Norton 0:00

Welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes, the show that teaches you growth from failure. I'm Chris Norton and joined as ever by Will Ockenden. And today we have a guest I've been looking forward to speaking to for a very long time. He's a fellow of the CIPR, a former president of the Chartered Institute of Journalists, and one of the most outspoken ethical voices the industry actually has. Here is the twist that makes today fun though. He taught PR for over two decades, and now one of his former students gets to dig through the past, ask the really awkward questions. I know you guys are going to enjoy this. There's tons of value here today, and some of the mistakes are gold. So sit back, get a coffee, and enjoy.

Cancer Diagnosis And Purposeful Work

Chris Norton 0:46

So Robert Minton Taylor, welcome to the show.

Robert Minton-Taylor 0:49

Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here.

Chris Norton 0:51

So we've got a description here of you as the PR veteran, former journalist, agency leader, and PR lecturer of more than it says 20 years, but it's actually 24. Yeah, I was gonna say it's more than 20 years.

Robert Minton-Taylor 1:02

You used AI, didn't you?

Chris Norton 1:03

Well, no, the team did. I didn't. So what what are you doing today? Um in what are you doing in 2026 in your day-to-day?

Robert Minton-Taylor 1:14

I uh I I was given uh my world changed in 2024, uh May 2024, when I was sitting in front of uh uh an oncologist who told me I had six years to live because I had um stage four prostate cancer. Um and that really turned my life upside down as it would for most people. But I'm I was then 77? 77, and um it changed my life. So I now in a way that I'm work um I do all my work is for voluntary work, and if I get paid, I I put its trake back into uh charities. So I I don't take anything for myself except for you know travel expenses. So I now work for uh as a public governor at uh Airedale NHS Trust, and as you know, the NHS are going through humongous changes and problems. They're building a £1.5 billion new hospital, it's one of the seven hospitals built being built in the country, but we don't know with finalizing design and everything else, and that's really exciting. Um, and I work for Yorkshire Cancer Research, and I know you've done some work

Chris Norton 2:20

with a recliner bars. We work with the layer work.

Robert Minton-Taylor 2:23

They're fantastic, yeah. They're fantastic. Um and I work for uh stroke charities, I put together, helped put together a thing called We uh All Things Stroke for people who are sufferers of stroke, um, patients and relatives, so they in plain plain English that so people could understand the condition, particularly if they were still working and how to get back into work. And we were just discussing our mutual friend Andy Green, so I'm gonna be sending him things he can look at in his hospital bed about how to recover from that. Um and I work for prostate uh uh prostate cancer. I do stuff for a thing called Hope for Tomorrow. They run the um mobile, they like look like F1 motorhomes for Formula One and Motor Racing, but they've been adapted for um mobile treatment centres. Oh, yeah. They're fantastic, they really are fantastic. So I work with them too. So I basically I'm an offshoot of their corporate commons department because they don't charities don't have any money. No, and the last thing they're spending on marketing and PR. And and you know, like Yorkshire, the charity you work for, which is fantastic Yorkshire Council Research. So I just I just take off them stuff they don't have the arms and legs to do.

Chris Norton 3:44

That's great.

Robert Minton-Taylor 3:45

Um, and and and I get a lot of I get a lot of enjoyment from that. I'm not a physical, you know, physical go out and walking round the hills even though I live in the countryside, albeit with a station. Um I I need to keep my my mind active, otherwise I just I get very depressed.

From Newsrooms To Big Agencies

Will Ockenden 4:01

So do you miss the I mean you you joined the the PR profession agency side, didn't you, in the in the 70s, is that right? So what was that like? And do you miss the kind of because it's it's I'm sure it's not well how how's it changed since the 70s? I mean, do you miss the other thing?

Robert Minton-Taylor 4:14

Well, I I had a j I I I started life as a journalist, I trained in the night late 1960s when they were still selling type by hand. Um and okay, um then I joined a company called uh Townsend Thoresen, and it was a bit like the Ryan era of today. All the ships were called Free Enterprise One, Free Enterprise Two, Three, Four, Five, but they had that catastrophic disaster, the Herald of Free Enterprise, and they were they were uh an interesting company, they were fast and furious, you know. Um, and I spent um six years working with them, and I learned everything about how to organise an event. Um, like you don't just you walk the event, you don't just write it down, you actually walk how many steps is it from the coach door to the lift in in inside the ferry if we're gonna have a party? And if are there gonna be any loading delays, so you've got to take those in account. What happens if someone spills their wine all over themselves? Have we got a separate tie and shirt for the CEO in case that happens? All I learned all that, and it was fantastic. And then I joined Burst and Marstella in uh 1979.

Chris Norton 5:28

Um Burst and Marstella's still still going.

Robert Minton-Taylor 5:30

No, it well, it's become Burson Cohn & Wolfe, and now it's uh being sold. It was then swallowed up by WPP. I left to come to Yorkshire um for lifestyle reasons, but I remember when I handed my notice in, the CEO at the time said, Um, you're the lucky one. And I said, Well, why is that? And he said, just wait, you'll read about it. And within six months, uh, WPP had bought the uh Culture Bank, yeah, and the first thing they did was sack about 100 employees. I mean, they literally folded in because they owned big brands like Hill and Knowlton, etc. So it's a shadow of its former self. It was then the world's largest, you know, PR agency. Yeah, I remember. And I learned so much. It was a very grey agency, but they had even a form about how you should write a press release, how you should deliver a fax, how you write a memo. It was very and we had amazing guest speakers, we had psychologists talking to us about communication, we had um behavioral experts, we even had that guy, Morris, you know, the guy who did the work with monkeys about you know how you how you how you judge people's arm movements and facial expressions, what they're actually meaning from what they say, you learn how to write speeches. We had training sessions even as a, and I eventually made it to the board, but we had even as a board director, we had training sessions every week. And if you if you said we're too busy to send so-and-so executive along to a training session, the next thing would happen you in your performance evaluation review. Well, I'm sorry, but that's unacceptable. Training comes to good commission. It was really good. Yeah. And but when WPP bought it, that all went out through the window. And I just wonder how many large um I know you do a lot of training, you do internships and everything else, but it was very rare in those days. We took on about nine graduates.

Chris Norton 7:24

You've got I think you've got to work on your junior staff to develop.

Robert Minton-Taylor 7:28

Absolutely, so that they can through the absolutely through the shops. And they've got to be able to learn by their mistakes, and we're gonna talk about the gaps I've made.

Will Ockenden 7:36

Yeah, it's the first time I've revealed some of these things. So, what um just before we move on from Burst and Must Mastella, Mastella?

Robert Minton-Taylor 7:44

Yeah, Burson-Masteller.

Will Ockenden 7:45

Burst and hyphen Mastella, yeah. Best and Mastella. BNM. There we go. BM as the BM, BNM. Not to be confused with BNA. So, what kind of climb work were you doing there? I assume they would have to be.

Robert Minton-Taylor 7:53

I started off. Well, I I joined because I worked on a shipping account, that's why I got the job. Um, and I worked on container shipping lines, but I worked on cruise lines, everything from pool tables to uh uh working with the uh King Constantine of Greece, trying to return him to pound, which I like this job. Um I worked with the royals, I worked with uh Prince Charles. Okay, lovely guy. I don't know where you're going with that.

Chris Norton 8:22

He worked with the king.

Robert Minton-Taylor 8:23

Prince's Trust with you with the Prince's Trust, and that was really

Racism In Hiring And Daily Life

Robert Minton-Taylor 8:26

good. Working um in uh Brixton, okay, and that was my first taste of racism. We had um as a guy, we had a uh uh it was a big Afro-Caribbean community, and Prince's Trust was helping people to get in Brixton. In Brixton, yeah. They gave them seed money for starting up businesses, particularly fashion businesses, that sort of things, that they couldn't get from a bank because they had no bank accounts and they, you know, they were a bit um, you know, yeah, Afro-Caribbean. Yeah, okay. And so we uh this guy turned up, we had a mentor who was a guy who was um drove a very smart BMW 5 series. Every time we went into Brixton, we were stopped by the police. He got out the car, he was frisked. And I remember one day, uh, I said, Well, you said that happens every day, so you know, um, we'll have to add another 20 minutes onto our journey. One day, the guy, a policeman on the other side, knocked on the window and said, Uh, why are you travelling with this black guy? What are you doing in this black guy's car? Seriously. Seriously, and I said, This is mid-80s, and I said, Um, well, he he's um working with Princess Youth's business trust of any whether you know, but it's uh Prince Charles's charity, main charity. I don't care, get out of the car. Um, and I got frisked, and I uh, you know, frisked from top to bottom, and I thought, this guy goes through this every day and and doesn't make any comment about it. And I was shocked.

Chris Norton 9:51

Just used to it by the sounds of it, wrong way.

Robert Minton-Taylor 9:53

Used to used to it, yeah. But it's still still around.

Will Ockenden 9:57

Yeah, I'm not sure the Met have particularly improved since then.

Robert Minton-Taylor 9:59

No, but it's still around. There are graduates from Leeds Beckett University who, you know, have a Muslim sounding name, and when they try and apply for jobs, they they don't get any answers. And I remember saying something off the record, I'll just change your name, first and second name to Christian sounding names. And lo and behold, using exactly the same TV, they get interviews.

Will Ockenden 10:18

So talk to us about that. I know this is one of the issues you wanted to talk about. Is is is is racism still a still a big issue in it.

Robert Minton-Taylor 10:25

It is, it is, but also it's a big issue. I mean, in the hospital, I've I've had people approach me saying, I don't want my uh I don't want to have my blood taken by by someone wearing a hijab. I don't want my mother uh being operated on by a black female surgeon. They're minority, but I think, and these are not, they're not your plumbers.

Chris Norton 10:45

Yeah.

Robert Minton-Taylor 10:45

These are professional people, and I think because of the rise of the far right, some of the far right parties, it's become normalized to actually speak about things where you keep the stuff in your head. I mean, I think I I'm shocked, but there is subliminal racism, as there is anti-Semitism, as there is Islamophobia. It's their Loki and background.

Chris Norton 11:09

Yeah, I I mean I I as an employer, I come from the other side of that. Like we've got to you've got to look at um people applying for jobs, and and you've got to so for instance, like we we would put a job advert out and we might get some jobs, not necessar necessarily public relations ones, some of our dissocial ones or our video jobs, or hella videographers just laughing at me here. Yeah, but we probably get 250 applicants within 48 hours. Oh, I understand. Um, and at some point you've got to if it's a writing job, yes, um often English has to be in public relations your first. That said, we've had a few people that it's not that you know they're not native English speakers, sure, and they've been very good. So it's I I get that there's people out there in human resources that have to go through tons and tons of CVs, but the fact that you did this stunt where you asked them to change their name.

Robert Minton-Taylor 11:58

But it it's not companies like you that are doing this. These are large, these are uh these are large corporate employees that you and I would know.

Chris Norton 12:08

Right, okay, interesting.

Robert Minton-Taylor 12:10

And then when you bring them to TARS, so there were three companies I bought to TARS and which spoke to three CEOs, two said, We've got to look at this. One just sent me their vision and value statement, and I said, Look, anyone, any fool can write a vision and value statement. Boxing lots of them. It's what you do, it's box ticking. What is it you actually do? Yeah. Oh, well, it wasn't me, it was some executive. But yeah, I said, Well, who's who's interviewing these people? Who's sorting the CVs out? You know, this is a responsible job. You looking, you you, you know, even the the 250 people apply to you, they all demand some dignity unless they put their CB through an AI thing. And I was saying to Will that we, you know, we I've looked at a couple of uh CBs for jobs recently, and and I I just thought, keep saying the same phrase. And I I I cut and pasted the thing in Google, and lo and behold, it's through AI. And I thought, well, they're applying for a comms job, they don't even deserve to get it because they can't even be bothered to to to to think outside the box.

Chris Norton 13:14

We we get applicants, right? And it'll say, dear sirs, yeah, and it's got bold in the in the sentence in the paragraph. Yeah, well, it's M-dashes all the way through it, and it's it's clearly the B's. Chat GPT.

Will Ockenden 13:26

So who who or what else is in your sites at the moment then? I mean, we've covered obviously racism in the industry.

Robert Minton-Taylor 13:32

I I will work I I work basically for non not-for-profit organizations and people and I think, yeah, that's a cause to to to to to um to champion, you know. Not for profit, yeah. I don't want I I I yeah, I don't want but I I'm I'm the the big the the happiest thing I get out of it is working for these these charities is we work for the for the Yorkshire Cancer Research, and they're fantastic to work with. They're really great. But I'm also the the stuff I'm doing as a public government

Communication Problems Inside The NHS

Robert Minton-Taylor 14:02

hospital. The interesting thing there is that I'm not I'm not my wife's a former nurse, but I'm not I don't know anything about healthcare really. But do you know it's interesting that most of the issues in the hospital are about communications?

Chris Norton 14:13

Really?

Robert Minton-Taylor 14:14

It's all about communication.

Will Ockenden 14:15

All language communication

Robert Minton-Taylor 14:17

between different groups. It's a bit like on the campus. I mean, I was shocked when I started lecturing at Leeds Becker University because when I worked at Bursa Marstella, advertising design, um videos it then was, right journalism

Chris Norton 14:33

broadcast it'll have been called then, wasn't it?

Robert Minton-Taylor 14:35

Still is, isn't it? Yeah, clear. Um it was all they called it the whole egg. You used all these disciplines, including HR. So we had talks from HR lecturers. Yeah. Um and we were mixed. If you go into IKEA's communications department uh at Leeds, you'll find that they're sitting with logistics experts. Why do you think they're sitting in the logistics?

Chris Norton 14:59

Uh the communication team. Yeah, yeah. Why are they sitting with logistics? To make sure that all the logistics are communicated effectively?

Robert Minton-Taylor 15:09

Because the biggest complaints they get about non-delivery of stuff, it's picking up stuff from the warehouse and delivering stuff the wrong screws. The university. No, no, no, I'm talking about IKEA.

Chris Norton 15:18

Oh, Ikea, sorry. Ikea, sorry, sorry, sorry. I was thinking of your job at the university. IKEA, yeah, definitely logistics. Because that's what we did in the end. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm with you now. You have to cut that out now. I always think that's fine, it's fine.

Robert Minton-Taylor 15:31

So but but that's that's very much the Swedish way. So when I came on campus and saw there's a room of journalism lecturers, there's a room of PR lecturers, there's a room of accounting lecturers, there's a room for HR lecturers, and neither twain meet except for their staff days. I thought, this is crazy. Why aren't they learning from each other? They don't, because they've got information is godlike. You know, you you use that information to to write your own journal article and book and books and all that sort of stuff. I've never written a book in my life. I wouldn't know I'd have the capability, I haven't got the patience, and the patience of a gnat.

Will Ockenden 17:15

What's your view on the sort of state of the industry today? I know you've not been in practice for but you you will have a view on it, I'm sure. You know, is it is it? I think it's well, a couple of things.

Robert Minton-Taylor 17:26

One, I think it's subliminally racist. Um, public relations are marketing and everything. The whole well, I'm I'm talking about the whole I don't I don't the the the comms business. Right, okay marketing and everything else. More so than other sectors. This is called marketing mistakes. So you know, what's the difference between that and PR? Hi mum. Um yeah. Um and the other thing is ethics. So I I was fortunate enough, I don't know how I got this, but I I won the um the PRCA's outstanding achievement,

Ethics Failures And No Accountability

Robert Minton-Taylor 18:00

blah blah blah. Francis Ingham thing. Francis Ingham thing. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. I was a bit surprised. Um last year was that? Yeah, 2025. Right, great. So um they said, oh well, you want you to give I said, can I make uh an acceptance speech? And they said, well, um, yeah, but we want to talk about your 60 years in the business. And I thought, I'm not gonna do that. Um, I'm dying, so I'm gonna say what I think. And I gave a talk about racism in industry, I talked a bit about AI, right, okay, and I talked about um the lack of diversity, particularly if you know, in terms of of uh people of black, Asian, ethnic, minority PRs in the business. And you could look around the room. I said, look in this room, there's hardly any hardly any people other than white. And it it and the people said, oh I said, Well how come there's an organization then called Taylor Bennett Foundation or women in PR? There's no problem about women in PR. And people, you know, women being told you better wear a short skirt because the client you've got good legs and the client likes good legs. Or or you know, when you return from uh you know maternity leave, you'll be reporting to someone who used to report to you. I mean, what the heck is going on here? So there's that the but the other thing is ethics. You know, if you think about the big disasters we have had, the HIV blood scandal, the uh the recent maternity maternity scandal, um, the uh the this is where where women it's just come out where women weren't treated properly um evenly evenly in in hospital. Okay. In some maternity units, it's a big issue.

Chris Norton 19:43

Okay.

Robert Minton-Taylor 19:44

Um I thought you read news.

Chris Norton 19:46

I didn't I read I extend extended.

Will Ockenden 19:47

I think Leeds isn't Leeds teaching hospitals in the crossfire for that.

Robert Minton-Taylor 19:51

Yeah, they're one of the uh uh the other thing is the adoption IT uh the adoption story, the Horizon IT scandal, the Grenville Tower, not one single senior, I'm not talking about just single PR director, either working in-house or working in agency, has ever been brought to task by a poop two big bodies, the PRCA and CIPR. Don't you think that's very odd?

Will Ockenden 20:17

And you're you know, they're take Grenfell, they're complicit in the

Robert Minton-Taylor 20:21

Absolutely. They work for the people who who who who supplied the panelling, they work for the architects, they work for the civil engineers. You're not telling me they didn't know that some of those that stuff, if they didn't know, they should have. Yeah. It's and you you've got you don't when you walk when I walk into your into your uh reception area, nice reception area, what's it got on the wall there?

Chris Norton 20:45

Um pictures? No, no. Pictures that I want changes. Yeah, it's our values, isn't it? You mean our values? Yeah, honesty and

Robert Minton-Taylor 20:51

honesty and integrity. Yeah, and the industry does not have that. So how it doesn't have it.

Chris Norton 20:59

Look at look at look at I don't know. Look, it's it it's not it's not everybody is I wouldn't say the entire industry is not is not.

Robert Minton-Taylor 21:07

Why do you put it on the wall then if it's if it's natural because I um I believe

Will Ockenden 21:11

it's it's probably not the default position of the industry, is it?

Robert Minton-Taylor 21:15

It's not the default position

Chris Norton 21:16

honesty in the whole creative sector is an interesting one. I I just believe this. But I'm a Yorkshireman and a spade is a fucking spade. So I'll tell somebody, I'll be honest with somebody and lose and we've lose we lose client, we lose work out of telling somebody what they don't want to hear. You can't yeah

Robert Minton-Taylor 21:30

, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you will gain plans. I've learned, I mean, I you you won't know this until I was actually born in Donny, Donkasta. Okay. Uh you and Jerem, you and Jeremy Clarkson. Yeah, I've really I've I'm returning. Well, he was uh his background's Lacranche is uh the jars, isn't it? The um Kilner Jars is his his background. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. His family made quid.

Will Ockenden 21:50

Oh, so we had a few quid today, Jeremy Clarkson.

Robert Minton-Taylor 21:53

Uh yeah. But I I think I don't think I think there's a lot. I I look at, you know, Grenfell Tower. You look at Fujitsu post office thing. What what the I mean, there were there were guys that were managing those posts. I I had a shock a few years ago.

Chris Norton 22:09

What's more shocking is is not the CEO of the post office ever went. Did they ever?

Robert Minton-Taylor 22:14

Yeah, well, sheet, sheet, you know, the the

Chris Norton 22:15

it was being controlled rather than the comms people.

Robert Minton-Taylor 22:18

I'll give you an I'll give you an example includes me. Um I we had a student who was did an internship with South Yorkshire Police. She rang me up one day. Uh I was late, got home, she rang me up and said, Look, I'm I'm really r worried because I've been asked to alter some police statements for the media. And I said, Oh, you should go to your director of comms, CIPR member. And you know, we have an ethics go to go by. Heard nothing further. Uh she finished her internship and asked to see me, and she said, you know, you uh do you mind me being honest? And I said, No. She said you were an FC UK. You you you you you you should you didn't help me at all. You you just you sold me down the river because I was altering police statements. This is for the for the um the Hillsborough disaster. Right. And I I was doing something I knew was wrong because I attended dual ethics lectures. But you don't you know, you were you were the typical PR person, God, who who who who who didn't even question that. You just assume because everybody has written ethics and values that they carry them out. Of course they don't, she said. We didn't do in the South Yorkshire Police.

Will Ockenden 23:35

It's weird because it journal you look at journalism and their code of ethics, you know, that's that feels like quite, or certainly used to. Um that feels like you quite an you know, a decent journalist is is very ethical.

Robert Minton-Taylor 23:47

Well, I'm I'm a member I'm a member of the N U J as well as CI. And I, you know, they're they they they've got a very good code.

Chris Norton 23:53

But doorstepping people in death situations is just Yeah, I've had to do that. It's fucking awesome. Well, that's how you start and look. You had to do that. Yeah.

Will Ockenden 24:01

Definitely recall it, don't they?

Robert Minton-Taylor 24:02

Definitely the trainee. Yeah. Oh my god. The the the uh uh the bridegroom had died on the way to the uh no way back from the wedding, yeah.

Chris Norton 24:12

Oh my god, that's awful.

Robert Minton-Taylor 24:13

I didn't knock on the door and ask how do you feel about this?

Chris Norton 24:16

I hope you got a good slap, a drink.

Robert Minton-Taylor 24:19

Um reverso, isn't it? And I thought and I went back and I said, I don't I don't I'm not I don't think I'm really cut out for this. So I then went into magazines. Right. I couldn't do that. I I I couldn't do journalism. I mean, I thought you were a Yorkshire man. I am, but I can't I can't deal with emotional things like that. I'm never quite an emotional person. Yeah, I am, yeah.

Chris Norton 24:41

A little bit you detect that straight off. We've we've been all cross apart in a bit simply. Will Will's told Will's like a contract killer.

Will Ockenden 24:48

I'll send you death knocking this afternoon, Chris.

Robert Minton-Taylor 24:50

You're a good guy though, and that's what I've come today. I think you I think it's a it's a chance for you to put me in a hot suit.

Will Ockenden 24:57

I just want to ask about the speech before we move on. So your PRCA speech. How was that received then? And and how was it received by the PRCA masters interruption?

Robert Minton-Taylor 25:04

Uh the P I had 800 plus comments following that speech.

Chris Norton 25:08

When when was the speech and what was it on?

Robert Minton-Taylor 25:10

November 2025. Okay. And I had 800 plus comments from women and people of uh non-whites people uh saying to me, yeah, bring it on. And how did the PRCA well how did the PRCA uh Sarah Waddington was uh well I praised her in the speech uh to say that it's great for a long last the PRCA has got a woman at the helm uh and it's it's changing from itself. Well, she's from the Northeast, yeah. Um she speaks Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, yeah, she's a great woman. And I you know, exceptionally bright and through, which is great. Yeah.

Chris Norton 25:53

She's been on the show, actually.

Will Ockenden 25:55

Um she's a friend of the show.

Chris Norton 25:57

I would say, well, she gave me a hug two weeks ago when I saw her at the AI conference. Oh, she's very huggy. Yeah. Um I've got so I've got I mean, that's great. So the fact that you I I am aware that this is three white men talking about um ethnic diversity in an industry.

Robert Minton-Taylor 26:13

But the one thing I I I I can do because I have this terminal condition, is that I I've said to people, look, there are a lot of people in my generation who are like this, who are racist, who are uh Islamophobic, and who are um you know anti-Semitic. And I can I I can talk to them. I don't mind kicking those doors and then telling them what I think.

Chris Norton 26:38

Yeah. I think I think social media hasn't helped all that. It hasn't helped.

Robert Minton-Taylor 26:41

It's made it worse. It has made it worse because you get all these people piggybacking on things. And when you I if anybody sends me a racist, and I get I get quite a few. I've had things like you're a Jew level, um, they burn people like you in hell. When I put out something about um, I think it'd be a good idea if you got your kids vaccinated against German measles because for women, why is it important? German measles because they might make an inferntifying, okay?

Chris Norton 27:09

Right.

Robert Minton-Taylor 27:09

I got things like you're a child killer from anti-vaxxers. And these are normal, these are professional people. I mean, look at look at the I don't want to mention the party, but we've got, you know, we've got two parties in this country who are just completely I think we've got about six now. We're we're we're just yeah, but the you know, the the if you went to 1930s Germany, you'd think, ah, they do quite well there.

Chris Norton 27:33

You really do shoot from the hip, don't you? Um right, I want you let's get into some of your mistakes for the show. So can you tell us? I mean, I I love this one uh when you sent it through. So the Diners

Event Disasters And Brand Blind Spots

Chris Norton 27:45

Club. Oh yeah.

Robert Minton-Taylor 27:46

The Diners Club. Yeah. Uh well Diners Club was like it's uh an alternative, yeah. It's like an alternative to American Express. I don't know whether it still exists, but it wanted it was seen as a bit of a grey card, and we wanted to make it funky. Right. And um so we we hired the uh Institute of Contemporary Arts, which was a bit funky on Palma, but it's quite posh, you know, it's uh where people uh upwardly mobile executives would want to go. Invitation only. And I hired a band called Nazenbluten, uh it called Yeah, but they're Australian. Oh, okay. They're Newcastle and Australia. Um, and they were um I thought they were from Newcastle, but they were Newcastle, Australia. Um and um their first number was uh something like uh You're gonna die, right? Okay, and then they I thought then they bought out a small pneumatic drill.

Chris Norton 28:43

Okay.

Robert Minton-Taylor 28:43

Uh they were a grunge band. They started drilling the space. What band? A grunge band. A grunge drill, okay, heavy metal drunken.

Chris Norton 28:50

Oh, heavy metal, right?

Robert Minton-Taylor 28:51

Heavy metal grunge. Okay, yeah, right. Okay. So they were going to be a good one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then they got out a pneumatic drill and started drilling. And I I thought I I And you'd organised the whole thing. I'd organised it, yeah.

Will Ockenden 29:04

Had even thought to listen to them before you put them.

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:06

Well, I no, I hadn't looked. I thought, oh, this is quite funky. You know, there were I'd got the agent, this is where you should, this is before, well before the days of AI. I just believed all the stuff that was sent to me.

Chris Norton 29:18

Is it before the internet?

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:19

It it released a couple of albums.

Chris Norton 29:21

And you'd not listen to any of their music before you put them.

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:24

It was it before the internet idea.

Chris Norton 29:26

I think I've got a lesson in here somewhere. Hidden the one somewhere or other.

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:30

Anyway, I hid in the loo. You did what? I went, I I just I just hid in the loo.

Chris Norton 29:36

Well, that's how to lead from the front, though, isn't it?

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:38

It is.

Will Ockenden 29:38

How was um how did the audience receive it?

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:40

Uh they all left. So there wasn't a soul in place.

Chris Norton 29:45

How much do you pay for that band?

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:47

Uh I can't remember.

Chris Norton 29:48

S o how many people were at the event?

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:50

Uh there were about 60.

Chris Norton 29:52

60 people. Yeah. They came on. How long were they playing before the room emptied?

Robert Minton-Taylor 29:56

About five minutes.

Chris Norton 29:58

And and you how much did the event cost in total? Do you have anything?

Robert Minton-Taylor 30:03

No, I don't you don't ask questions. I never had to fly them over from Newcastle, Australia, and nothing. No, no, they're already done touring in Britain. You know, yeah, there's a few lessons that don't be quite. That's the thing.

Chris Norton 30:13

But you started this whole conversation with what you learnt how to walk an event and learn everything about.

Robert Minton-Taylor 30:19

Well, they just showed you there are sometimes lapses in concentration, aren't they? It got so you know, I just thought this would be great. The funny out the guy, the the promoter said they'd be great for you.

Chris Norton 30:28

Yeah, we we had somebody on the show, uh, a guy called Tom, and he was telling us that he did a uh they built an app. Um, but unfortunately it was for I think it was for Nokia, and you could you could download this app um and they look they tied it to Kylie Minogue's latest album and they paid 15 million for it. Why? And um, but unfortunately the downloads section of it didn't work very well, so they got 37 downloads for 15 million pound investment. He said, check out the ROI on that, which I do love. I'll have to put the link in the show notes on that one.

Robert Minton-Taylor 31:00

But more so I know there's some others, but the other thing I uh that that you would not probably sink through, um except I did other well, no, that you you can't I want to talk about the Coke incident. John,

Chris Norton 31:12

then talk about the Coke incident.

Robert Minton-Taylor 31:14

Okay, so we had a um a reception for uh Burger King.

Chris Norton 31:20

Okay.

Robert Minton-Taylor 31:20

Okay. Uh we did PR for Burger King, and this was at a fancy hotel. It was about their new menu and how they actually flame grilled their stuff, right? It was all, you know, and we had a proper chef there with his outfit and everything else. I mean yeah, you see, you see chefs in burger king, it's not you wearing the full outfit with their name emblazed embroidered on there. Okay. Nobody obviously went to the wrong Burger King. Um, so so uh so what do they bring out in the bar?

Chris Norton 31:50

Steak Coke Coca-Cola.

Robert Minton-Taylor 31:53

Coca-Cola.

Chris Norton 31:54

I thought you meant cocaine then, I wasn't.

Robert Minton-Taylor 31:55

No, no, what no no no no. What's an state there?

Chris Norton 31:58

Well, they only serve Pepsi and um Burger King, do they?

Robert Minton-Taylor 32:01

Yeah, because Pepsi owned Burger King. Or did then.

Will Ockenden 32:04

Why on earth did they do that?

Robert Minton-Taylor 32:06

I hadn't I hadn't I had an instruction that they didn't know. It was the hotel.

Will Ockenden 32:10

Oh my god.

Robert Minton-Taylor 32:11

And they they we well, you know, they just said this is unbelievable. Didn't do your homework.

Chris Norton 32:16

Who said who said that? The client. The client. So you did a big press launch launching it, and they brought out Coca-Cola?

Robert Minton-Taylor 32:22

Yeah, in the refreshments. Oh, and what's at the bar afterwards. At the bar afterwards,

Chris Norton 32:27

you get sacked for that.

Robert Minton-Taylor 32:28

Uh I think I don't think we held the camp for much longer.

Will Ockenden 32:32

That's a bit like do you remember? Um, I I saw I got served this on social media when I think it was during the Euros, Cristiano Ronaldo was doing a press conference and three bottles of Coke strategically placed, he just took them all away, got some water, and said drink water instead. And it's in terms of brand damage, it's unbelievable, isn't it?

Chris Norton 32:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, but the fact that they paid how many millions have they paid for this coming, haven't I?

Will Ockenden 32:55

Because I've put my hand up to separate.

Chris Norton 32:57

But but then often with stuff like that, right? Your brand damage and think, you know, like we've just done there, you said, Oh, Ronaldo said drink water. But actually, if I'm Coca-Cola, I'm thinking, well, we've just got Coca-Cola talked about extensively everywhere. Yeah, but you negatively, but also we've got our brand in front of people with Ronaldo moving in, it's become a talking point.

Robert Minton-Taylor 33:16

But clients are very protective, aren't they? I mean, senior executives are very uh they have thin skins, some of them, don't they? I mean, they're really they they when people, you know, when they they just read reports, very few of them actually go around. I remember uh I remember there are only about two or three executives that ever worked in my career that I have a high regard for. One guy was the CEO of Avis UK, who went for one week of a year, he went to clean cars. And I said, Well, how can he afford to do that? And he said, I need to be there to see how it's done. Oh, right, okay. And I toured with him and I realized that's how you see. That was before you know the undercover boss. He was doing it. I was thinking of it. He was doing it, he was doing it. Yeah, he spent two or three weeks.

Chris Norton 34:02

A lot of the best marketeers that we speak to go out and shot spend the day in the shop just doing speaking to customers.

Robert Minton-Taylor 34:08

But no one knew no one knew in the branch who the hell he was. In fact, I when I turned up, spit like that in my eyes, I I uh undercover first. You're in so infrequent. What the hell is he doing? He was washing the car.

Will Ockenden 34:22

But that's I recognized it. Well, a way to keep keep in touch with the reality of your business, yeah. Did he reveal it at the end, or was it no?

Robert Minton-Taylor 34:31

It's new, it was there because I'd worked with him. Yeah, it's crazy.

Chris Norton 34:35

It's good, it's good that though. We've got another one here because you've been, I mean, with the your experience in PI, you've shared quite a few. The Trust House Forte.

Robert Minton-Taylor 34:42

Now that that is somewhat, yeah. So I we put out we won the Trusthouse Forte account. They were huge. They owned uh motorway service areas, welcome break, little chef, little chef lodges. They did all the airline catering at mostly catering at Heathrow Airport. They had a whole chain of hotels, including uh the Bristol in Paris at the Jaws V as well as the Trusthouse Forte type hotels were like the holiday in type. Huge empire. And uh, we'd won the account, massive account, and uh sent out this press release and spelt Trusthouse Forte wrong. It I thought because Trust House had amalgamated years earlier that it would be one word, but actually Trust House is two words. The first I knew about this, it was Trusthouse Forte three words. Trust one word, 40 is second word. Um you wrote his one word, you wrote his two words. Trust house is one word. And take it, they didn't like that. The first I knew about this was.

Chris Norton 35:44

Was that the first press release as well?

Robert Minton-Taylor 35:46

It was the first press release that we sent me. I uh and I I the first I knew about this was uh 12 hours after this press release went out, I was called to the office of a guy called Bob Leaf, who was the legendary um PR guru uh over 20th century. Um and he said uh there's a problem. Uh I said, Oh right, okay. He said, You didn't invite me to sit down.

Chris Norton 36:11

So you stood up in his office. I stood up, yeah. What is he saying? Is his office uh a big mahogany?

Robert Minton-Taylor 36:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Our office impressive, impressive. Uh he was from he he he he he he lived in the UK for a long time but still had his Bronx Saxon.

Chris Norton 36:26

Right, okay.

Robert Minton-Taylor 36:26

Tall guy, very impressive. Um he said, I've just had a call from Harold Burson. I said, Oh right, about you. I said, uh uh, why is my I don't think my anniversary is coming out because Harold Burson used to write handwritten notes to people about happy wedding anniversary and things like that. Amazing, amazing person. Yeah, exactly. We've lost that's what we've lost. Absolutely correctly, and he said, uh you spelt Trusthouse Forte wrong in the press release. And um he's had a call from Lord Forte, Charles 40, asking me to sack you. Oh my god. I said, Oh right. Uh you said, What have you got to say for yourself? And I said, Well, uh, first of all, is my mistake. I wrote the release. Oh but didn't you train as a gender? So are you supposed to check things three times before you put them out? And I said, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And he said, You didn't, did you? I I said, No, I didn't. Um, but no one else is to blame apart from me. I don't want I

Chris Norton 37:27

What level are you at this point, man?

Robert Minton-Taylor 37:28

I was an associate director.

Chris Norton 37:30

Okay, so you're quite senior.

Robert Minton-Taylor 37:32

Yeah, so he said, Um, well, several things are gonna happen. First of all, you're not you you know, you're due for promotion to the board, but that's not gonna happen. And we were about to give you um he you know head of um travel, leisure and transport accounts in Europe. But that's not gonna happen. And you're not gonna get your bonuses this year either. Oh my god. Um as to whether w I should dismiss you, um I'm gonna take a rain check on that, uh, but you're gonna have to go and apologise to Lord Force, and you better give him uh a bottle of champagne, but it better be a decent bottle of champagne. So I went to Fortnum & Mason and bought this £175 bottle of Veuve Clicqout damn grand champagne, all specially packaged and everything else.

Chris Norton 38:22

Have you never drunk it?

Robert Minton-Taylor 38:24

No, no, I I actually rang his um office to find to make the appointment and asked him what was his favourite tipple, and it was this case.

Chris Norton 38:32

Oh no, clever.

Robert Minton-Taylor 38:32

Well, that's one that that was the only good thing. So I'm in Lord Fortier's office and he again sat behind the table and I thought, well, the hell was gonna be a little bit more.

Chris Norton 38:42

This must have been terrifying.

Robert Minton-Taylor 38:43

He said, What have you got to say for yourself? And he said, Well, it's entirely my fault. Uh no one else in my team. I'm really sorry. I've spent, you know, I've worked in your hotels as as a receptionist and everything else before I came into PR when I was a student, and I I respect everything you do and how you've grown your empire, and I know your background and everything else. I've done my homework at least. And so we had a chat about that, and he said, uh and what you've got for me. And I said, Oh, I've got a spottle of champagne, and I thought I'd need it. And he said, Okay, but you're gonna be working I'm not gonna sat on you, but you're gonna be working 24-7 on this account until and you'll keep it as long as we think that you're delivering it. And if you lose the account, you'll have to go.

Chris Norton 39:33

Did you did you find that that because I I have to say, I as a boss, yeah, hearing how your boss dealt with that is quite different to how I would have dealt with that. It's quite interesting, sent you straight in to the to meet the big head honcho and do you the groveling. Did you did you

Robert Minton-Taylor 39:49

O h, I'm sure there'd been conversations before.

Chris Norton 39:52

Did you find that build your built your relationship actually up with this client more? And so

Robert Minton-Taylor 39:59

well, I was just terrified. I mean, I went in like the naughty schoolboy sitting standing outside the headmaster's study. I didn't know what was gonna happen. I mean, this account must have been. I thought I was gonna get sacked. I mean, I knew I was gonna get sacked.

Will Ockenden 40:10

 It must have been a huge account for the agency.

Robert Minton-Taylor 40:12

It was a huge account for the agency, but all credit to Bob Leaf, he was big and broad enough to broad shoulders, did I? I mean, he was Mr. Big, and he he presumably said to Lord Forty, leave it with me and I'll deal with it. And Burstmaster, people used to have accounts of Bursen Master because it was the number one agency. Yeah, yeah. It was like being invited to Buckingham Palace to meet the Queen in person, by the audience. I mean, it was that he it was that kind of agency. Prestigious, yeah. It was, it and it's sad to see it as it is now. It's a form of shadow with itself.

Will Ockenden 40:49

Well, that was that's terrified me hearing that story. I was just imagining myself in that scenario.

Robert Minton-Taylor 40:53

Well, I learned, but I learned, you know, I uh it sounds as I haven't learned anything, but I've learned a lot from that, and I I encompassed that in my teaching. So uh Frank uh Franklin McCamley, who I taught, um is now she went into journalism after she left. She's she worked for the BBC, she's now going for a senior uh commentator for Al Jazeera in the Middle East. Wow. And I said, Well, congratulations, you I always knew you'd go far. And she said, I always remember your do not talks.

Chris Norton 41:24

Do not do this.

Will Ockenden 41:27

I'm getting the theme of D. They were born out of experience.

Robert Minton-Taylor 41:30

And if you've gone through it, you you somehow you never forget it, do you? No, I wouldn't have. I would have said this if I was still, you know, in in uh it's quite fresh, PR because I well, I might get some businessman people who, you know, made mistakes.

Will Ockenden 41:46

The theme here is detail, isn't it? The devil's in the detail, all of these mistakes. It's one tiny thing that has huge huge importance.

Chris Norton 41:53

But the problem is sometimes there's a lot you can prepare for, but some things are so small, like the fact that you had I mean the fact that the hotels served the the Coca-Cola.

Robert Minton-Taylor 42:05

That was a big learning lesson for me. And I thought for everything more, if you have any reception with anybody, is check, is check what else does that company you're working for own? Yeah. In the food industry, it was hospitalized food hotels and everything else. So you wouldn't organise a reception for Holiday Inn in a in a Novotel or Nobotel brand, would you?

Chris Norton 42:26

No.

Robert Minton-Taylor 42:27

It wouldn't happen. Or a Nobotel cafe, you know. So it was doing that, it it it reinforced to me you have to do your homework all the time. What's so and as a boss, you need to check it through. It's no good saying, Oh, it's little Johnny here, or it's Andy behind the camera. He doesn't check anything. Well, he does he's a nice guy, though, isn't he? He's very nice to me.

Will Ockenden 42:48

He's a nice guy.

Robert Minton-Taylor 42:49

He was really nice to me. Yeah, don't like that. He was on the email, yeah. Um he's probably very good at his job, I assume. It's all right.

Chris Norton 42:59

We've we've also got a story about nationwide building society. Oh, yeah. Uh yeah.

Robert Minton-Taylor 43:04

Oh, well we pitched to Nationwide Building Society. It sounds like this came after one of the, but there were a few

Chris Norton 43:09

There was some success over the way.

Robert Minton-Taylor 43:11

Uh no, uh uh to Nationwide Building Society. We pitched to them.

Chris Norton 43:15

Great client, by the way.

Robert Minton-Taylor 43:16

We did a we thought we did a good pitch to them. I've never worked in you know financial services. Um, so I was a pitch. And we got got back to the offices, thought we'd done a brilliant pitch. And we left a leave behind document, I don't know what you call them these days, but a little document about with our slides.

Chris Norton 43:34

Acetates back in the day, were they?

Robert Minton-Taylor 43:37

Yeah, they were. Yeah. But but you know, we put those in the yeah, we put we put the whole thing together as a packet. Yeah, yeah. And they ran up and they said, um, have you read through the document? I said, Oh, why? Is it the costing's uh too high? He said, No, no, no. She said, I think you might like to check what uh what profession are you in? I thought, oh public relations marketing data, the whole thing. She said, I might think you might like to check the spelling. The spelling of public relations. I won't say anything more, I just called it. I said, Can you get the document now? I said, Well, yeah, I'll just a few minute pause and I got some. I left the yellow out of public relations. And all I could hear the other was this laughter, not just from her, from the whole team.

Chris Norton 44:25

Pubic relations.

Robert Minton-Taylor 44:26

Yes, pubic relations. And she said, You made you've made my week.

Chris Norton 44:33

Did you get the account?

Robert Minton-Taylor 44:34

No, we didn't get it.

Chris Norton 44:35

Oh fuck, that's no good, is it?

Robert Minton-Taylor 44:37

Yeah, but but but but I just saw I was wonderful. I and I again I made it a horrible typo. Director of Pubic Relations. Yeah, but it was she said the one good thing was that it's consistently spelt wrong.

Will Ockenden 44:51

Right, there we go.

Robert Minton-Taylor 44:52

How did you not see that? I think you yeah, but you know how how did the people who put the Grenville Tower together did not know that it was playing? How did the people the Fujitsu Horizon didn't know it was a problem with the system?

Chris Norton 45:05

They did know that. Well allegedly. Close brackets. Legal letter coming off. Yeah, exactly. Robert, obviously you've been in the industry for I've just slammed the table, I'll get told off that. We've got five minutes. But I'll if you've got a message to put out there into to p PRs and comms people out there

What Needs To Change In PR]

Chris Norton 45:25

and marketeers, what's your like the your message that you'd like to leave with with them from your experience in in the industry?

Robert Minton-Taylor 45:34

I'd like to think in a few years' time there'd be blind recruitment. You don't even know if the person's got PR experience when they apply for a job. You'd have seen their picture or anything else. And I think you might surprise who turns up through the door because some of the most the most fantastic people I ever worked with, PR, didn't come from a PR background. There were dancers, they were comedians, whatever. But they were good, they were good at communicating with people. The other thing is is learn from your mistakes, and obviously I've learned some, but not all. And I think the other thing is uh don't be too trusting in PR. I think you know the one thing I've learned is always ask the questions of the answers because the first answer you get may not be the truth. And I think it given what's happening in the US, where we've got platforms like Truth Social and we've got um economy of truth with things, I think it's really important as public relations professionals that we stick to being transparent, open and honest. And I'd hope to see less sexism in industry. I'd like to see there are a lot of women who graduate, as you you both know, uh, but very few of them are board level. And I'd like to see them more at board level. That's not to say that every woman is a great leader, but a lot of them are like uh Sarah Waddington. And I'm working with women in PR to try and help them as your typical public school educated 70-year-old male, man. Yeah, male man, yes.

Chris Norton 47:18

And I I've got a five- I've got another question, and I'll let Will ask the final one. But um obviously, but both of us have taught on the PR degree. Uh I was a PR degree graduate. I actually think you taught me um uh

PR Degrees And Social Mobility

Chris Norton 47:29

in my first year.

Speaker 2 47:30

Yes. Um that's why it's interesting that you are in charge. First time ever.

Chris Norton 47:35

Uh really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robert Minton-Taylor 47:36

Well, you you're you're not gonna be a good one.

Chris Norton 47:38

Ah, so you mean this of the podcast, yeah, yeah. Um I was just gonna say, like, um PR degrees and cons degrees were were really popular, and then they've they've sort of died, which is a real shame because I f I felt like they had a 98%, it was about in it was a 90% um when you finished your degree that you were in you were in employment. That was the crazy. That was the thing that sold it.

Robert Minton-Taylor 48:00

Well, I think that's the fault of both the university and PR lecturers for not safeguarding the degree and making it more applicable to 21st century. I think it's the fault of the large agencies who are not involved in in PR degrees really. Small agencies in Leeds are, pretty much so. I mean, that's not all agencies. Some are great, like Hope and Glory, are fantastic at that. But um, you know, it was interesting in my latter years at Leeds Becky University because I was working part-time, I didn't have my own dust. So I'll hot test. And I worked in the um I worked in the uh architectural school, fine arts school, and everything else, which is fascinating because you know, visual arts are part and parcel of PR, aren't they? And communications. And I I was interested to learn I even worked in the engineering school in the in the building across from uh the Beckett Park Rosewell campus. And what interests me was there's far more interest from the industry in the courses than there is now. I bought IKEA to to Leeds Becket because I thought if you know that's a Swedish company, there'd be fantastic work on real-life projects. Yeah, but for instance, the Passion degree at um Leeds Becket University is just teamed up with Birdbridge. And they have a factory in Yorkshire. Yeah. I mean, a big, big Yorkshire brand. So, and beg a big international brand, what a fantastic cooperation there is, but they there isn't, you know, large agencies should get involved on in the courses.

Chris Norton 49:31

I think the PR, I think the PR, big the big PR agencies, though, take all the you know, the the richer um private educated.

Robert Minton-Taylor 49:39

Maybe they don't think they want the the other thing I didn't mention, and which this is something of Anne Gregory, is that there are very few people from um Working class backgrounds. Exactly. And the person one of the people I'm most proud of is a woman who um I can't remember her name now, but she came from Chapeltown. Okay. And I remember she came to Leeds bus station, took me to her flat because I was gonna help them with their dissertation, said you can you I don't you can't go on the bus on your own. Not to Chapeltown, as it then was. Um Philip got out the got out the bus and there was all this sort of first thing I saw was a car on its roof had been burnt out and all this sort of stuff. Um she carried Mace with her and she'd done black belt karate. Uh but she's now a marketing uh manager for Yorkshire Air Ambulance. Wow. And I thought that that's what the post-1992 universities are so good at is encouraging people from um you know those backgrounds, disadvantaged backgrounds, whatever they might be.

Will Ockenden 50:41

Into a profession.

Robert Minton-Taylor 50:42

Into a profession. And I I admire people like you. You I I guess you come from a

Chris Norton 50:47

working class background, yeah. My parents have, yeah, both my mum's a cleaner and my dad's a construction worker. Fantastic.

Robert Minton-Taylor 50:53

And I used to love it at graduation, you know, seeing the parents who were cab drivers, cleaners, and everything else. It really made me proud.

Chris Norton 51:00

But then there were people in my year at university. There was a girl, and I remember she put her hand up in class, and she was like, they were talking to her, and she'd put her hand up and she said, Oh my, and she was talking about a car that her dad had just bought. I can't remember what the question was, but she was and it was a brand new M Sport BW five series. It was a 50, 60,000 pound car in year 2000. It's at least brand new. I was driving a clapped-out four Fiesta.

Robert Minton-Taylor 51:28

So um, I think, yeah, yes, yes, yes, I agree. Uh, one of the things that lectures used to do is is Google where the students came from and they'd see this massive great house in you know in Paul Border's wives territories just making that we're um we're approaching uh the time limit.

Will Ockenden 51:47

The final question for you, Robert. And we ask all of our, I'm gonna put you on the spot here, we ask all of our um our guests this question. So

Next Guest Pick And Contact Details

Will Ockenden 51:54

who if you were us, who would you next to get on the show?

Robert Minton-Taylor 51:57

A ndy Burnham. Andy Burnham?

Chris Norton 52:00

Oh, that's not a hard brief. Is he has he got anything coming up? Is he busy at the moment? Yeah, is he? I think you should get Andy Burnham. If you can get Andy Burnham on our podcast, I'll shake your hand personally. I'll take you for lunch, Robert.

Will Ockenden 52:13

Uh if only we'd got him about six months ago.

Robert Minton-Taylor 52:16

Yeah, no, yeah. I think you should future. I think your podcasts are very interesting, and I think that what makes them interesting is you don't just take people from the marketing profession.

Will Ockenden 52:25

Yeah. Um we've never had a politician on it, have we? We've had business owners, entrepreneurs, marketers.

Chris Norton 52:31

That's because politicians give vague differences. He's gonna be different, don't you think? I hope so. He's a good he's a good communicator, and he's from a working class background. Exactly.

Will Ockenden 52:41

Um, Robert, how can people get in touch with you?

Robert Minton-Taylor 52:44

I'm sure people are gonna listen to this and they're gonna robert at minton -taylor.com. Fantastic. Will get me. Great. Okay, you can email me. I do look at emails. They'll find you on LinkedIn as well. You can find me on LinkedIn, and I've got an interesting thing, haven't I, at the top of my LinkedIn profile? You I looked at it. I didn't I looked so my honesty integrity, you've got to tell the truth, or something like that. And I do admit that I screwed up.

Will Ockenden 53:07

Yes, so do I've got to start a podcast about it.

Robert Minton-Taylor 53:11

Right, thank you, Robert. It's only seen by one person though.

Chris Norton 53:14

Yeah.