Meet Val And The Two Brands

Will Ockenden 0:00

So you're the VP of marketing and strategy at Unbounce.

Val Riley 0:04

Yeah, so I'm one of those odd people who actually majored in advertising and marketing in college, found a home in uh SAS, in uh tech marketing in general, and specifically SAS. I was actually got some gray hairs on my head. I've been around since SAS was really born, which is really exciting now to see what AI is doing to the software market.

Chris Norton 0:33

Val Riley, welcome to the show.

Val Riley 0:35

So excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Will Ockenden 0:38

Um, so why don't we so you're the VP of marketing and strategy at Unbounce, aren't you? Why don't you start by giving a little bit of an introduction to yourself and talking to us about how you uh how you kind of arrived here today in your current position?

Val Riley 0:52

Yeah, so I'm one of those odd people who actually majored in advertising and marketing in college, knew what I wanted to do the whole way, and um started out my career primarily in content marketing. It's my first love. I've always been a lover of the written word. Um and found a home in uh SaaS, in uh tech marketing in general, and specifically SaaS. Uh, I was actually got some gray hairs on my head. I've been around since SaaS was really born, and um, which is really exciting now to see what AI is doing to the software market, is what software as a service did to the software market previously. So I feel like I'm hitting like a second iteration. Um, but I've always been in SaaS marketing and um the I worked for Insightly CRM, which huge competitive space, the CRM space, and Insightly was acquired by Unbounce uh about two years ago, and then at that point got put into the head of marketing seat for the combined organization, and that's where I am today.

Will Ockenden 1:57

Excellent. So what does Unbounce do then? What do you explain? Um, explain to us about uh yeah, what what the what the proposition there is?

Val Riley 2:04

Absolutely. And I sort of feel like I have a split personality because while Unbounce acquired Insightly CRM, the organizations were about the same size. And we basically have two products that we market in tandem. And it's a lot of context switching because Unbounce, many of your listeners may have heard of, it is the category-leading landing page builder. Really Unbounce invented the landing page category and has always been at the forefront of the latest and innovations in landing pages. We sell primarily to marketers, marketing agencies, and we just give them the ability to launch campaigns so much faster and just get something into market really quick. Um, and so that's the value prop and the market for unbounce. And then on the Insightly side of the business, a lot of context switching here because Insightly is very much a challenger brand in the CRM space. So when we're working on Unbounce, you know, we're the big cheese. When we're working on Insightly, you know, we're the we're the David to the Goliath, right? So we're just fighting for market share and fighting for um attention in the category. But Insightly is a full sales-oriented CRM, and it also has modules for marketing automation and service and some a middleware component. So it's really a full feature CRM for your company. And there, of course, the ICP is sales leaders, CEOs, COOs, RevOps folks. Those are the types of people we like to talk to on that side of the business.

Content That Cuts Through In 2026

Will Ockenden 3:42

So you said um content marketing is your first love, which um I I really like. So I assume um at Unbounce, lead gen, you know, lead gen is a big part of of what you do. And you're talking to quite senior people, aren't you, that are very, very busy. They're not they're not gonna have an awful lot of time to consume content. I suppose um at quite a macro level, you know, what in 2026, what's working, you know, what's cutting through when it comes to kind of content marketing? Because there's never been more content, has there? And we'll dive into AI later on. But you know, AI means there's hundreds times more content than there's ever been, and people have got less attention than they've ever had before. So how on earth do you cut through and how do you get results in in what you do?

Val Riley 4:23

I'll tell you what we don't do is we don't uh just put out AI slop because I do in in my heart as a content marketer, it does pain me to see that the quantity that we can put out today is, you know, 100x what 1000x what we could have done just a few years ago. And it's very tempting to do that, but it's a huge, colossal mistake. And I think um, you know, it's all those PE firms and CEOs who are like, well, just do all the content with AI, right? I think like they're finally starting to come around to the fact that that is in fact not a solution. Um so I still think the same rules apply. It's you know, really taking your time, doing high-quality pieces, um, focusing on the, you know, the ICP, making your ICP feel seen, heard, and understood with the type of content you're putting out, that's always going to win. Um, and and I know you said we would get to AI a little bit later, but it what AI is doing to um search is just nothing short of phenomenal and in my opinion, a huge positive change. And I say that because there was a time where, um, especially as a challenger brand, you couldn't outwrite any of these behemoths in the industry. So, for example, Insightly competes with Salesforce and HubSpot, right? I mean, those are both literally household names, right? Like Salesforce has their logo on Caitlin Clark's jersey. Like I'm never gonna be able to afford that, like straight up. Um, but the way they were able to just write every content piece that they could and um dominate the market with SEO. But now here comes GEO or AEO, whatever you want to call it, and it's not about who has those long-standing blogs that have been there for 13 years or it's about, you know, relevancy. It's about people talking to you about you on Reddit, it's about your latest PR clip or media clip, it's about uh what's going on on review sites. And it really has given the opportunity for challenger brands to um not to get a voice and to be surfaced and to be discoverable in a new way. So I love what that has done to content marketing in general, and um, and I think it's a great opportunity for challenger brands and for category

How GEO And AEO Rewrite Search

Val Riley 6:54

leaders. I think you have to make sure your house is in order really quick.

Will Ockenden 6:57

Definitely. I mean, GEO is is a is a drum Chris and I beat constantly. And, you know, um, we're we're fortunate enough as as an agency because we we invest heavily in content and always have, and we do lots of PR, we have a podcast. We rank, I think we did a benchmarking and prohibition with something like the third best ranking agency in the UK. There's something like five and a half thousand agencies. So we rank really well. Um what do you kind of um proactively um deliver campaigns and activities that will positively influence your AI visibility, or do you just do lots of what you've always done, which is great quality content? Talk to us about that.

Val Riley 7:37

Yeah, I would say a little bit of both because you're right. If you're following the principles of content marketing, you're going to do well in AEO or GEO, right? Like absolutely. But there are some tactics that you might need to look at if you haven't been already. And I'll give you this example because I I think it's so funny. I I can remember um chatting with a social media manager about, it must have been about eight years ago, and we were talking about, you know, Reddit came up. And she's like, well, Reddit's a snake, you know, I'm so afraid of it. I just I try not to go there. I feel like it could bite me at any moment or be my friend. And I was like, yeah, okay, that's interesting. Well, fast forward to today, and um I actually have a contractor that I pay to um be on Reddit and represent our brands on Reddit. And if you had told me that 10 years ago, I would have said, you're you're a little kooky. But it the reality is that places like Reddit, Quora, or lots of forums are really the darling of GEO. And I'm here for it. I love it. Because again, if you're a challenger brand, it gives you an opportunity to break in ways where you know Reddit wasn't really a source for traditional SEO. Um, forums had some impact, but not quite as not quite a lot. And so um I think it's a huge opportunity. And so, yes, we are doing some things the same. We are continuing to put out high-quality content, we're continuing on content cadences, but we are also looking at properties and channels that maybe we hadn't paid attention to before, but we know we need to now.

Reddit Marketing Without Being Fake

Will Ockenden 9:17

So taking Reddit as an example, then, I mean, obviously, Reddit's one of the most cited um sources from from um you know AI AI models will look at um Reddit, won't they, as a, as an authoritative source. So, how do you engage with Reddit in a way that isn't um you know disingenuous and isn't just spamming people? I mean, do you do you and and you're obviously you operate within a relative niche in in a market? Do you seek out conversations and join them? Do you start your own threads and discussions? Talk to us about that.

Val Riley 9:48

Yeah, it's really important because it's all about authenticity, right? And and that's another reason why GEO is so exciting, is because you can't fake it anymore. Like it has to it has to feel authentic, it has to be authentic. And so, yeah, I didn't take someone fresh off of my team and plock them in and said, okay, you're in charge of Reddit now. We actually sought out a contractor who Reddit is something that he participates in regularly and enjoys. He knows the culture and he knows exactly what you're saying. Like if you just roll up and start spamming, it's not going to be a good experience. But you have to understand the community, what the community guidelines are, but you have to also get the community vibe.

Will Ockenden 10:32

Otherwise, it's so it's so obvious if you get it wrong, isn't it? And they will they will spot you a mile off.

Val Riley 10:37

Exactly. And so it's about what's appropriate. Like, hey, maybe we slide into this subreddit. Um, maybe we answer a question here, maybe we come forward when we have a new, uh, a big new release and we actually talk um as the brand. But all of those things together, like it, it ha it's a recipe, and you have to really, you really have to get it and be authentic in order to be effective. So it's something that I think you have to find someone with experience in.

Will Ockenden 11:08

Yeah, interesting, interesting.

The Messy Reality Of GEO Measurement

Will Ockenden 11:10

And then the the big thing when it comes to GEO or a big debate we we constantly have a prohibition with our clients is is the kind of the measurement side of it. So what do you do you kind of benchmark your GEO visibility? And if so, you know, what tools are you using for that? And how else do you, how else do you kind of track? Do you see leads coming through from um you know GEO results and things like that?

Val Riley 11:32

It's a great question. Um, I think you might be eavesdropping on me because I was just on a CMO forum the other day with a group called Exit Five, and we were having an AEO-GEO conversation, and people started talking about which platforms that they were using. And I just started scribbling down. I'm of course I've heard of Profound, I've heard of Peec. Um, and so I was just saying, okay, it's probably time that we invest in something like this, or see if one of our um contractors or vendors is investing in something like this because we haven't done a strict measurement on it yet, but I know it's something we need to do. And, you know, it's another, you know, another expense I'm gonna have to go to my CEO, CFO for and say, hey, you know, we have to add this new platform. So I just want to make sure it's the right one. But the the group that I was with came up with about five options that they talked about and demoed. I do feel like Profound is the one that everyone is sort of going towards first, but I have heard it's the price tag's a little bit hefty. So that's where I'm at.

Will Ockenden 12:34

It's a bit like the era of social media listening, isn't it, when all of these kind of amazing tools emerged, you know, $50,000 a year or something like that. Big big expense. But I feel I feel with GEO tools, I mean, there's so many coming into the market, it's a bit of a gold rush, isn't it? And not there's a there's still a lot of gaps in those tools, isn't there? I still I'm still not sure I fully trust some of the some of the data they're reporting. Um I don't know what your view on that is. I mean, I suppose some measurement is better than no measurement, isn't it?

Val Riley 13:04

Yeah, even if it's just benchmarking, you know, uh, I think that that it definitely has value. And I do worry because, as you know, sometimes when platforms like this emerge, they come in at a really low cost because it's a land grab. And then, you know, a year and a half from now, the rate's gonna go up like 3x and we're gonna just keep paying for it. So I do want to be a wise consumer. Um, but to to your point, what are what is being measured? Um, can we benchmark it? Can we look for improvements over time? While we as a marketing community really kind of establish what it is that matters, what it is that moves the needle, and um, and then what it is that we can actually feel comfortable recording, reporting to our executive teams, our our PE firms, our ownership, right? It's still in its infancy and you just want to get it right. Um, my philosophy is always like sit back, listen, let's figure, let's hear, see what's going on. We don't have to be the very earliest adopter. We can see how it's going, and then, you know, like I said, ask in communities and make an educated purchase.

Will Ockenden 14:12

What we find here, I don't know what you're expecting. I mean, you you are in a much techier field and and and you know, so your view will be different, but we find a lot of the market isn't ready for it yet. You know, when we um when we have conversations about GEO, the importance of driving GO visibility, in fact, we we consider LL LLMs to be an audience in in its in itself almost in some cases, that we find the markets not not sophisticated enough in a lot of cases to have caught up with that and then they're not interested yet because they don't understand the category. What's your experience with kind of um I suppose at a C-suite level? You know, is is there an understanding and a recognition to the importance of of this stuff, or is it just another buzzword um that, you know, what what sort of engagement at a senior level are you seeing?

Val Riley 15:03

Yeah, it's a great question. I always say that being in Martech SaaS is like a blessing and a curse because we're on the bleeding edge of everything. Sometimes I wish maybe I worked for like a manufacturing firm in like the heart of America. I feel like, I feel like I would be five years ahead of any technology that the marketing team at that firm was using. And I don't know, maybe that sounds a little um a little pompous, but it is hard being in MarTech SaaS because our PE firm is already asking those questions. My leadership team is asking those questions. My CEO likes to dabble in that type of stuff. So we have to be on the forefront of it. We have to be asking the questions. We have to be showing like getting our reporting to shift to show the impact of GEO. So yeah, it's a little exhausting being in MarTech SaaS. May maybe my next career move, which is unlikely this is what I've been doing for you know 20 years, but it would be nice to downshift into a category that is maybe a little bit less on the bleeding edge of everything.

Will Ockenden 16:06

But yeah, some engineering firm or a furniture manufacturer or something like that. That that would have been exactly.

Val Riley 16:12

Yeah, yeah. Somebody who does widgets in the middle of, you know, Minnesota. I just feel like that would I would just be able to downshift a little bit and and just be on the other end of the adoption curve. You know, you think about the the diffusion of innovations. It it'd be nice to be a a bit of a late adopter uh at some point. But unfortunately, being in MarTech SaaS, you know, we're always on the the rise, the come up of that bell curve.

Will Ockenden 16:35

Well, it keeps you on your toes, doesn't it? And keeps your keeps your CV looking good. Um yeah, that's right.

Research Content That Gets Cited

Will Ockenden 16:40

So so stepping away from GEO for a sec, um I'm I'm quite curious. Um, when it comes to content marketing, um what other formats? You know, you you talk obviously you're creating loads of great content, you're really researching um your ICP and addressing pain points. How are you delivering that content and what what kind of delivery methods do you find in cuts through? I mean, you know, one would assume LinkedIn, um gated PDFs, which um funnily enough, I was reading about the kind of the death of the gated PDF and actually how gating a PDF kills your engagement and you shouldn't be doing it. So a bit of a two-part question, really. What formats work? And I'd love to know your view on gated PDFs and what alternatives might be to that approach.

Val Riley 17:24

Yes, absolutely. So leaning back into our GEO conversation, one of the things that GEO really likes is uh bespoke research. And I've been fortunate enough in my career to work with a couple of bespoke research firms that really help us in that respect. And so what I mean by that is we'll uh work with a research firm, come up with an idea for a research piece that we want to do, and work with them to get the questions, they handle the survey end of it, and then we look through the results, come out with some key talking points, and produce a really great research content piece. And so GEO likes that because GEO likes anything that's new or different, anything that it can cite with statistics. The media likes it because they're gonna pick up on research pieces. So we'll have our PR firm pitch those pieces for us, and we'll usually get a couple of media mentions there. And then we'll take the piece and we will put it out on our website. We will sometimes uh put it out on like on LinkedIn and gate it, or we'll do like a LinkedIn um document ad where you can release release the first you know, three or four pages and then the rest of it's under wraps if you want to give us your information in exchange for it. Um but we have found that that's a great compromise for us. So um again, as Mark as Unbounces the category leader, you know, the rising, if we create demand for landing pages, it just elevates the category. And so as a category leader, releasing research really does benefit us because we're the largest player, but it just it just raises the tide for everyone. And again, that I've always been a fan of bespoke research. I feel like it gives us things to talk about on podcasts, it gives us things to talk about on interviews, but the fact that AEO or GEO likes it too, it's just kind of icing on the cake. So I would definitely recommend bespoke research, either with data that you have within your organization or data that you can acquire by partnering with a research group. Um, one of the biggest research pieces Unbounced does every couple of years is called our conversion benchmark report. And so we basically look at how landing pages are converting in a dozen verticals. And so we'll tell you hey, if you're in the manufacturing space, um your landing pages should be converting at this rate. If you're in SaaS, this is a good rate for you. Um, if you're in healthcare or entertainment, this is a good rate for you. Um, so that's kind of research that we can do on our own that really nobody else can, because we've got like, you know, 2.5 billion conversions under our belt at this point. Um, so I would definitely lean in on research. And however you can figure out how to do it within your organization, it just pays dividends in so many ways.

Will Ockenden 20:28

Yeah, I'm a massive fan of um, I mean, we we always advise our clients, you know, even before going out and commissioning third-party research, you know, look at your own data. And an organization like yours, you've got just this, it's an absolute gold mine of data. And you can tell so many stories. And you know, having like an annual benchmarking report is is absolutely brilliant.

Val Riley 20:47

Um Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. You can tell so many stories because that's what a content marketer needs. And a content marketer needs ways to take one single piece of research and bring it in so many different directions, you're really getting a lot of value out of your effort and your time and your research dollar. So I think I think that's a good point. It's the storytelling behind the research.

Will Ockenden 21:10

If you gate too much content, will will the LLMs be able to be able to read it? They can't read gated content, can they? Or can they?

Val Riley 22:27

That's correct. So um the solution there is if if you want to gate it and use it as a lead gen piece, I totally get that. Um but if you're out um on the media circuit and you're quoting the research in so many different places, you're getting the value, the the attention from the LLMs because of the media reach that you have. And then that you're in fact just driving more people to the gated piece. Um, because the truth is reading a full research piece, you know, these pieces are like 15 pages. Not everybody wants to digest every single piece of data on there, but you want to talk, you want to read an article that. Digest that data for you. So you sort of double, you sort of double dip a little bit. You get the people that really want the full research piece, they're going to fill out your form, but it's the media exposure that you're getting to your brand and driving people to the piece. So and I don't think of it as an either-or necessarily. It's just, it's just a value add. Yeah.

Will Ockenden 23:25

Interesting. And then I mean, I don't want to give away all of your marketing secrets, but what you know, when it comes to kind of driving

Gated PDFs And Smarter Alternatives

Will Ockenden 23:32

those leads, um, you know, have you got particular channels that really deliver for you? I mean, we're we're big fans of um obviously kind of bespoke landing pages where you you drive traffic and you drive attention through PR, people can convert there. We find LinkedIn lead gen ads are increasingly really effective. Um and obviously LinkedIn targeting is fantastic now, isn't it? What you know, what's what's your view on that and what's what's kind of working for you on a tactical level?

Val Riley 23:56

Yeah, you you hit the nail on the head. You cannot beat LinkedIn for the targeting ability. I mean, so for example,

LinkedIn Targeting Versus Google Intent

Val Riley 24:03

marketing agencies are a huge audience for the unbalanced brand and the fact that LinkedIn can get so tight on that ICP, even down to a company size and region. So we know that while we might be paying two to $350 per lead there, we know that that's a person we absolutely want to talk to. So, you know, people say LinkedIn's expensive, but I think would you rather get one of those or, you know, you know, 200 clicks through on a meta post, right? Like I'll take the one LinkedIn because I know that's the person that we really, really want to speak with. Um so our philosophy is on the unbounced brand is for those agencies, marketing agencies that we really have a high value opportunity to give to them, I'll definitely use LinkedIn primarily. If we're looking to get people into a trial motion, um, so our trial for the unbounced brand does not require a credit card. It's a it's just an open trial. Um, so I'm heavily leaning on Google there because obviously there's great intent and the CPLs can be, you know, really, really inexpensive. Um, you know, with uh a CPC compared to LinkedIn is, you know, pennies compared to what we're paying on LinkedIn. But the vision there is quantity. I want to bring as many folks who are um have some intent for landing pages, I want to bring them into my trial motion and see if we can get them to convert on a self-serve plan. So, but definitely LinkedIn for that agency audience where we want to have a value conversation, that's worth it to me to pay for the LinkedIn ad for sure.

Will Ockenden 25:50

Having a trial that doesn't require a credit card is massive because that drives me wild. And the number of people that must bail when you have to give a credit card detail. So that's that's that's a great move. It removes all the friction, doesn't it?

Val Riley 26:01

It does. And in fact, we had to there's a concern in our industry for fraud, right? Because people will open up a free trial if they if it um doesn't require a credit card specifically, try to quickly set up a landing page and then try to fraudulently fraudulently scrape data from folks or get people to click. So um, in order to have a non-credit card trial, it did take us some work to weed out all of the um factors that could allow for a fraudulent landing page. And um, so that that can be a hiccup for some industries, right? But you are 100% right. Once we pulled the credit card requirement away from the trial, the number of trials per month increased like four to five fold. So we went from you know getting about 1500 a month to getting like 6,000 a month. So it was great, but um, but yeah, like that's the cautionary tale. Like can can you make sure that bad actors can't do um something in the platform during that free trial period? That's why you might need that barrier to entry of a credit card.

Will Ockenden 27:15

Interesting. Um, right, changing the subject slightly. When when we had the kind of the pre-um show briefing, you were talking about the fact

Leading Teams Through Acquisitions

Will Ockenden 27:23

that you've been heavily involved um in in company acquisitions. You've led marketing teams across multiple company acquisitions. So obviously your current position was a result of an acquisition, and I think the was at the previous two one or two roles, you've also gone through that process. So from a I suppose from a personal perspective, um, what's that like? That must be really stressful. And you know, how do you kind of keep the there must be a lot of collateral damage or potential collateral damage when that happens? You know, how do you keep the marketing team focused and motivated? How do you manage that with consumers, particularly for brands kind of merging? I mean, what have you learned from that? Because doing that three doing that one time must be hard enough, but doing it three times must really teach you something.

Val Riley 28:04

Yeah, it candidly, it's exhausting. Um, and I always wonder like the people who are making the decisions, the the folks at the at the ownership level, uh, I'm sure they just see it and they're like, oh, well, these two teams would work well together. Let's just put them together. And and it's the level of detail involved in merging teams. Like I just think they have no earthly idea, right? And that's why they're the owners and we're the operators. That's that's that's what we do. So I get it. But um, but yeah, after three times, I would say I've I've probably learned one or two things. I think the the most important thing as a leader, leading a team through an acquisition or a merger acquisition activity, is that everything I can tell them, I tell them. Like I try to be as transparent as possible because that's how you build trust with your team. Because inevitably, in some of these um situations, there's going to be some folks who might be deemed redundant after the merger or acquisition. And there's going to be folks who are going to take on a lot more work. Um, and so, and I can't always predict who's going to be on what side of that line. So I just try to be as transparent as possible and build as much trust as possible. Uh, another big learning was after Insightly and Unbounce merged, the there were many teams in our company that simply operated in parallel. So, for instance, if you were a customer support person for the Unbounced brand, you kept on doing that work and you were just sort of parallel with folks doing customer support for the Insightly brand. You sort of just like side by side with them. And that's fine, but I don't know that you're actually like integrating as a company. Um the opposite spectrum on on that was the marketing team. So on day one, the marketing team had to start integrating. So we had one social media person who remained that person on day one had to start posting for both brands. We had one content marketing team, that content marketing team had to instantly start learning the other brand. The designers all had to start learning the other brand. So we integrated on day one. And it made the first three months extremely difficult. But then we were smooth sailing. And then all over a year post-acquisition, there were still some teams struggling with integration, like the our products team or our um customer support team or our sales team. We're still just like two very different divisions. And so I know it sounds trite, but like rip the band-aid off fast. Get as as assimilated as you can as soon as you can, because then you start building. But if you're just waiting and waiting, then you're just putting off the inevitable and eventually you have to, you know, deal with the repercussions of the merger or the acquisition. But so my philosophy is just day one, just get it done.

Will Ockenden 31:20

Yeah, pain now, not pain later. That's that's um, that's something I believe in. You know, just just get it done and and and yeah, suddenly a year's gone and you're you're you're reaping the benefits. Have you ever had a situation where kind of um almost I I know you get different f you get different philosophies to marketing, don't you? And and I I get the impression you're very you're very kind of forward-thinking and cutting edge. Have you ever had a situation where you've had kind of two marketing teams merge with with diametrically opposed philosophies to how marketing should be delivered? Or have you managed to kind of smooth that over?

Val Riley 31:52

Um I would say that the the hiccups that we had uh primarily were back to that whole concept of Unbounce being this category leader and kind of dictating how the category would go. And that bleeds into your marketing. So uh Unbounce had this very like academic approach because it was like, well, what we say goes, right? And that's great. And the Insightly team came in and their philosophy was you know, we have to, we have to punch up at the competitors, we have to try to establish a beach head, we have to um be clever and quick and and cutting edge and new in order to compete with these bohemoths that we're just trying to steal a little bit of market share from. So those are very different philosophies in marketing. And I think we just used it as a learning experience. So, like if you had come in on this brand, you know, guess what? You're gonna learn a whole new marketing tactic as you start working with the other brand, and vice versa. So I tried to play it as a strength, but on paper initially, I was a little nervous thinking, okay, this these are very different ways to work. But, you know, the team is bright and they're motivated and they're excited. You know, there's excitement that comes off of a merger or an acquisition. So sort of just capitalized on that. And and now, and I always try to position it as you know, these are experiences that you will draw on in your whole career. Because 10 years from now, you're gonna be on a job interview and they're gonna say, tell me about a time when you had to X, Y, or Z. These moments right now, this is what you're gonna draw on 10 years from now in that interview. So just slipping it into a strength.

Will Ockenden 33:40

Yeah, yeah, I like it. So that leads us quite nicely on to um the middle segment of the show. So obviously the show is called Embracing Marketing Mistakes. So now I'm gonna press you on some of your mistakes that you've made over the years. Now

Direct Mail Mistakes That Still Worked

Will Ockenden 33:52

I'm hoping these notes are accurate because I've got a few starters here. So I understand um you once delivered a direct mail campaign that didn't quite go to plan. Is that right? Yes. Tell us about that.

Val Riley 34:05

Uh I was working for a company and I was very much a startup company. Uh, we had achieved product market fit for sure, and we were just given the green light to accelerate growth. And I will caution you that this is the time of um growth at all costs, which was a wonderful time to be a marketer. It's not really the case anymore, but um, but it was glorious. So the company was called SharpSpring. It was a marketing automation platform, and it was specifically designed for marketing agencies and had a really attractive pricing model that made agencies very interested in talking with us. And so the idea was this very tight ICP. We just wanted to get in front of them. And um, so I call what we were doing um elaborate direct mail, um, you could call it aggressive direct mail. Right. And keep in mind, this is before platforms existed like Sendoso and um, you know, those platforms where now it'll say, you know, um, you'll you'll get a message in the mail and it'll say, hey, well, we want to send you a package of muffins. What's the best address for you? And then you get your muffins and you're like, oh, Val sent me these muffins, isn't that great, right? Those didn't exist at this time. So we were trying to um really capitalize on shipping gifts to the office. And again, this is pre-COVID, so everybody was in an office. So, Will, you know that when you're in an office and someone gets a package, right, and it's on their desk, what usually happens in the office?

Will Ockenden 35:40

Well, everyone fights for the package, don't they? For a start.

Val Riley 35:43

Everyone crowds around you say, hey, what did Will get? That looks cool, right? And so, sort of capitalizing on that human curiosity and that human behavior, we were we were doing um very elaborate direct mail packages. And the goal was just to get attention. We wanted the agency to sit for a demo with us. That's all we wanted to do. Because once they saw the platform and they saw the pricing model, we had a really good chance of closing the deal. So we just wanted to get a demo booked. So some of the ideas that we had, uh, some were better than others. Um, so one was um we sent uh a bunch of ingredients to like a bunch of root beer. And we talked, it was supposed to be like fun and whimsical and like gave them the opportunity to make root beer floats at their agency, right? With like a little gift certificate or whatever. Um so but you know, the downside of that is we had packages leak. We had leaky packages get sent back and leak in our lobby. Um, we had a lot of sticky opportunities in the office, but definitely got attention.

Will Ockenden 36:50

Um another one we did the wrong type of attention though.

Val Riley 36:53

Yeah. Another one we did was uh like a money tree. So we sent a plant. Um, and the idea was like, well, you know, money grows on trees when you use SharpSpring or whatever. And we had sent a little bit of you know potting soil along with the money tree. And, you know, of course, somebody opened the package and um there was dirt all over her desk. So you know, clearly we're not closing that one.

Will Ockenden 37:20

I wasn't there's a lesson along the line, isn't it?

Val Riley 37:22

About maybe we needed to double bag the soil on that one. Yeah, so you know, um, but you know, certainly got a lot of attention with that one. Um another one we did was we hired a bunch of designers who went and went to all of agency websites and um got their logos and redrew their logos, and then we would draw like send them a print of their logo on glass. Uh their logo actually printed on glass. Um because if you think about agencies, they really love their logo, right? Agencies see their logo as a huge representation of their work. So it's kind of their baby. Um, so we again growth at all cost era. So like we certainly had the budget to do it, but hired a bunch of designers, we would ship you this, your logo printed on glass, along with a little message and a little puzzle for you to do, with the idea that hopefully you would hang it on the wall and you know, call us for a demo. Um, of course, some of those broke in transit. So, you know, sometimes we're sending people shards of glass, which is not great.

Will Ockenden 38:33

Um But no one died, I hope.

Val Riley 38:36

No one died. Um we did have a lot of people do some really fun unboxings for us, though, and that was nice. Of course, when the unboxing went as planned and the gift was intact, you know, that was ideal.

Will Ockenden 38:47

Um I'm actually a massive fan of um, I mean, a lot of people we've had on this pod, funnily enough, have have talked about we're we're returning to this world of kind of tactile, high effort old school techniques, you know, and it's it's almost a rejection of this kind of increasingly automated AI-driven world. And a lot of people are saying, you know what, things like the handwritten note, the uh the the kind of the creative mailer, all of these are making a massive kind of comeback as as effective as online channels are, people want the old school. So I'm actually a big fan of some of this stuff.

Val Riley 39:20

Yeah. Um one other one we did was um we s we were talking about how the platform you know could expand and grow with you. So we had these like Slinkies made. I don't know if you're familiar with Slinky, it's like a coil toy that you sort of play with and it can go down the stairs or whatever. And so again, before this is before we had all of these great mailing systems in place. So this guy sent us this very nasty message email, and he said, I got a message that our agency had a package. It I had to go down to the waterfront warehouses to pick it up because it couldn't, if the delivery failed because the address wasn't complete, and I drove all the way over there and I got out of my car and and it was a slinky from you guys. So thanks for like wasting my time.

Will Ockenden 40:07

At least you got his attention though.

Val Riley 40:09

We did. Certainly not a demo that was set. Um, so you know, uh, and he just felt the need to send us that nice, nasty email. But that said, um, I will say overall the the company ended up having rapid growth. Um it sold for many, many millions of dollars. So we were yeah, clearly we were on to something with this very like aggressive creative direct mail, but it wasn't without some pitfalls along the way. So broken, broken glass, uh leaky root beer. We also we did a lemonade promotion that had some very sticky lemonade. We had the dirt, the dirt on the desk, the guy who had to go to the uh to the docks. So um so yes, definitely some mistakes along the way.

Will Ockenden 40:58

There must have been you must have spent a fortune. I mean, just just mailing them out or delivery charge, you know, for a case of root beer. I mean, God, you must have been spending huge budgets on this stuff. But I suppose if it works and it gets attention, it's it's okay, isn't it?

Val Riley 41:11

Well, again, the growth at all costs era was lovely. And I will say this I can remember being in, and we were all like very low-paid, you know, entry-level marketers. And I can remember being in conference rooms and literally packing up, packing up um packages and and stacks of packages and staying late and somebody driving everything to FedEx or the post office. So there was a sense of team bonding, I think we got from it too, that was kind of nice. Uh, but you know, certainly it was a low budget way to do what we wanted to do. Um, and I think about it too, like now that these gift-giving platforms exist, is there even room for something like that anymore? Uh I don't know. It's a good question.

Will Ockenden 41:59

Well, I'd like I'd like, I mean, from a B2B buyer, you know, I I own an agency. I'd like to see more creative mailers sent to me, to be quite honest. We we got one um a few years ago, and it is a a yellow sponge, you know, the sort of sponges you clean a car with. And it had um sponge NB written on it, okay. And for a year we didn't know what it meant, and it was written on a black marker pen. And then like probably two years later, my business partner got a call from Sponge NB, which is means sponge new business, and they were doing a follow-up, and um they'd either and or they were doing a new follow-up, and then we made the connection, and basically somebody had forgotten to follow up with this mailer. So for a year it sat in our office, and there's wild speculation about what the spa what the sponge was. So I suppose you need to uh yeah, you need you need it, you need enough substance so people actually know what what you're talking about. But personally, I'm a big fan of this stuff. Um in fact, we've had um a few behavioural scientists on the show. I think Richard Shotton talked about the effort perceived effort bias or the effort heuristic, which is the idea that if the customer perceives um higher effort has gone into something, they will have a more favorable view on it. So, for example, and this is a bit creepy, I think, a handwritten note to a to a prospect versus an email, they are likely to think more favorably upon a handwritten note. I'm not sure, to be honest, anyone would favor a handwritten note from me. I think that might be a bit creepy, but who knows? But yeah, I I like the idea and I like I like the story. So that was uh thank you for sharing that.

Val Riley 43:33

Well, and think about it. You're years later, you're still talking about this sponge, right? But how many emails from three years ago are you still talking about?

Will Ockenden 43:42

Well, it's well, great point. Exactly right. Yeah. Um so um thank you very much for being on the show, Val. Um a couple of questions before we finish. First of all, people are gonna be listening to this and they're gonna be wanting to connect

Where To Connect And Who Next

Will Ockenden 43:54

with you. So how can they get in touch with you?

Val Riley 43:57

Um I hang out on LinkedIn all the time, especially now that uh LinkedIn says that uh LinkedIn articles are supposed to be a darling of GEO. So you'll find me there and on regular LinkedIn. Um we also do a podcast uh for Insightly and Unbounced Brand. It's called Closing Time, and you can find that on um Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Will Ockenden 44:20

Love the name of that, Closing Time. That's great.

Val Riley 44:22

Do you know the song? Can you sing it?

Will Ockenden 44:24

I'm not gonna sing it. I do know it. You don't want to hear me sing. We'll lose listeners if I sing.

Val Riley 44:29

I always try to get people to hum a few bars and it's in my head now, though. Yeah, absolutely, all day.

Will Ockenden 44:35

Um and a final question, which we ask every guest. Who, if you were us, who would you invite on the show next?

Val Riley 44:43

Oh, that's a great question. Um, I am a big fan of um a gentleman named Sangram Vajre. He is um he kind of was a pioneer behind ABM Flip My Funnel. Um I love what he does. He actually has um a whole go-to-market um uh structure that he and his co-founders have done together with GTM partners. And they also train fractional executives, which I think is the wave of the future. And um I think he would just have a ton of great information to share. And he's found in several times, so I'm sure he has a mistake or two along the way that he would share with you.

Will Ockenden 45:28

Fantastic. Well, thank you for coming on the show.

Val Riley 45:30

Yeah, thanks for having me. This was wonderful. I'll I feel like I need to connect with my old uh colleagues that we packed packages with together and and drink a cheers to our marketing mistakes.