Selling An Agency Without Regret

Chris Norton 0:00

You had an agency for 20 years. First of all, that's amazing.

Gerry Hopkinson 0:02

Unity started in we started Unity in 20, uh, 2005.

Chris Norton 0:07

This amazes me like with brands that move away from like the old school.

Gerry Hopkinson 0:12

A lot of marketing directors go and go, I don't want to follow up, you know, I'm gonna change it up. You'd be mad to change it up. When I talk about innovation, I mean if you take a brand like KFC, it's about the chicken, stupid.

Chris Norton 0:25

Although your Pizza Express example is a good example of where if you test it, you can get it right.

Gerry Hopkinson 0:30

What we did was we created what we ended up calling a living lab. So we took over Pizza Express in Richmond. So we said, look, we're going to re we want to reimagine Pizza Express, and we need your help.

Chris Norton 0:50

Gerry Hopkinson, welcome to the show.

Gerry Hopkinson 0:53

Thank you very much. Nice to be here.

Chris Norton 0:55

You had an agency for 20 years. First of all, that's amazing. Anybody that can have an agency for 20 years needs a trophy, I think. Um, but for me, uh, Will and I have never, we haven't really consulted on selling the business and getting out, but I've heard it's it's it can be quite a painful process. However, you stayed for five years, which is really impressive. Like after you sold the business. So how did that come about? And how was it being an owner, an entrepreneur, and then selling out and staying for five years?

Gerry Hopkinson 1:25

Absolutely. So look, I'll thank you. I'll I'll try to explain all that um fairly quickly. It's it's just this is my story. It probably will you know resonate with a lot of people listening if they've done similar things. So actually, Unity started in we started Unity in 20 uh 2005 and sold in 2020. So actually 15 years, still good innings, long time. And then I stuck around for five years. So we're not in total it was 20 years, just to clarify. Um I think look, the thing about um I think the thing about selling is probably a bit in my experience, and the other only talk about my own take on it, it's a bit like a relationship. Um, you know, you can go and date X number of people until one day, you know, you just know you you meet the person and you're like, hang on, this feels good, this feels right, where have you been? And in terms of selling it, you know, I over the course of the 15 years, there were several moments where we were having conversations, probably quite, you know, um light-hearted ones with people about, oh, you know, we ought to buy you, you ought to sell to us, blah, blah, blah, we ought to merge. You know, those kind of things, as you know, in agency life, they come up for whatever reason. But actively in in 2019, I started to lean into looking for uh an investment in the agency and probably looking for someone to buy it outright. Um, and I had a short list, spoke to a few people, and as luck would have it, um some two guys who I knew very well were on the lookout um and and had started a group called Selbey Anderson, who I sold to. They were called Dom Hawes and Simon Quarendon, um, both of whom understood PR very well, but also understood marketing, understood agencies, and understood the other side of the equation, finance. They'd brought together some private equity and had capitalized uh that group, had purchased a number of agencies already, so I wasn't a guinea pig. Um and importantly, as I say, we knew each other. Uh, in fact, Dawn was a client way back when at a previous agency called Band & Brown back in the day. So we knew each other, and I known Simon from awards dues and things and pitches, because he, you know, he worked at a uh, I think it was, I'm gonna say Ketchum, might have been Edelman. I can't remember. He'll kill me for not remembering, but I can't remember. Anyway, um, so we got on really well. Um I was ready to go. I had a succession plan, which was some the advice that I got from friends who had sold previously. He's like, look, you know, a couple of things you really need to be clear about. One is how if you're prepared to stick around and for how long, what are your kind of absolute deal breakers if you have any? Um, you know, a lot of people, for example, get very emotionally involved in their agency and they're like, I don't want to give it away. And they want the money, but they don't really want to let go of control. And it's like, how's that gonna work? So, you know, you kind of gotta do a bit of uh get yourself to a place which is, you know what, I am selling this. A bit like if I'm you're selling your house, it's not yours anymore. If they want to paint the bathroom purple, that's their if they want to knock it down, put in a spa, it's their business. So it's kind of like that. You just kind of have to do that. But the good news is they knew me, they knew me, they knew what they were buying, they knew what they wanted. Um, so yeah, did that. And then the reason I stuck around for five years was the first couple of years were just betting everything in and doing this succession plan. Um, but they're a really good bunch of people, um, interesting group of agencies, from advertising to experienti to a bit of what I would call, because I'm a granddad, direct marketing. Um, but you know, he's probably now referred to in other ways um personalization, content marketing, that sort of stuff, some performance marketing. So really interesting group and great uh people running it. Um and after a couple of years, they said, look, you know, would you stick around and do something else? So I was like, Yeah, great. So anyway, I hit them with an idea which they liked, which was connected to my big passion in agency life and in PR, and really in in since I was at uni, really, which is human beings. I'm really interested in people. So I'm much more interested in in the public than the relations bit of public relations. I'm really interested in what makes people tick, what are their needs, what do they want, um, what do they find interesting. Um, and and within that, you know, how do we make sense of things and how the world uh as it changes affects our attitudes and our beliefs and our behaviors. So I basically created a um a research and foresight business called Selby Labs, and which served the clients in the group. And yeah, then that had a kind of natural moment where it was like, okay, I've done five years, I'm signing off, I'm gonna go do other things, and it was all good. So that's what I did.

Will Ockenden 7:00

I mean, and I because you you mentioned the emotional side of things, and I think I'd imagine if you don't get that right, it could be awful, couldn't it? Those, you know, those subsequent years after you've sold.

Gerry Hopkinson 7:10

Well, absolutely, and you know, you do hear stories, and I won't name names, but of people who sell their agency and then are so kind of invested

Letting Go Without Losing Yourself

Gerry Hopkinson 7:20

in it emotionally that they buy it back um from the people that they sold it to, often at a moment when it's maybe not doing that well, whatever, for whatever reason. But I, you know, it it happens more often than you think. And I think there, as you say, Will, that is that is a that is an element. Now it's inevitable, you you know, you will know this very well, both of you, that when you found something, any business, you invest in it, you put your blood, sweat, and toil into it, you sacrifice a lot, you know, you have much to apologize to your family and partner for, about you know, it taking a lot of a toll on you. So you are invested in it emotionally. And it's it if you're not at all invested in it emotionally, unless you're walking away on day one, that is a bit of a problem. But like almost anything in life, it's a balance, you know. Um I'm still passionate about the people and and and and the work and and that that was done, and I you know feel strongly about that and about you know um the ways in which they go about it. Um, but it's kind of a bit like being a parent as well. You know, you kind of need to find your mom, like I'm at that stage of life now where I kind of you know letting go a bit and thinking, yeah, you I have two daughters, you know, and they're grown up and like you've got this, you can you know what you're doing. Um and you become you have a different relationship, you know.

Chris Norton 8:55

So I I suppose I suppose that's true, but with kids, right? You don't sell it for some money. I suppose if I to if I take the cynical rest of you, yeah, like we we get by saying Can I just say on the record that is absolutely right? I have I've not I've not sold my child You've got to gone to Egypt and swapped them for camels. Um but I was saying, like, you know, like imagine someone like knocked on the door tomorrow and went, Chris Will, will you take six million? Uh oh yeah, look lovely. And then we sold for six million quid and may as well go off and buy yachts in yeah um yachts in the Bahamas, which was never gonna happen. But anyway, uh say it did, and then a year down the line, the agency's on its knees, yeah, and we hear from somebody inside saying they're really, really struggling. Yeah, and they'll I think they'll flog for you know 500 grand and you can get it back. I can see then that that would make it A, you'll A you going back to be the savior and you rescue it, you know, for the ego thing, but B, it is your baby. Like Will and I have grown this company from nothing. So I the the personal investment you've got to go through, the pain, like you say, a parent. Yeah, but I'm also on the other side with you, which I've got like two sides of it. Like, once you've sold it, like off you go. It's up to you guys, isn't it?

Will Ockenden 10:07

Well, look at um look at um you you mentioned people buying it back. Um, brewdog as an example, you know, James Watt now trying to actively buy the brand back. I mean, what his yeah, yeah, what his reasoning for that is, I don't know. But um, you know, obviously a brand he founded, it's been you know, it's been it's been bought stripped back. Uh it's it's quite interesting. Exactly.

Chris Norton 10:28

And you know, look, I think there's analogies. Uh you know, you make a good point about money, it's money. Money changes hands and that's it. But you know, other people used analogies of of of bands, you know, like you're in a band, the band breaks up, you know, maybe you start having another band. Some people can't get over that. Other people are like, great, you know, let's move on. Um, and then some bands, as we know, fall apart and come back together and fall apart and come back together. Oasis comes to mind, but they're there are loads. Um, the early days of Unity, we worked a lot with musicians and stuff. So, you know, you kind of see that. But um I think everybody, I think for everybody is different. For me, it was the right time to do it. I, you know, I saw the business to people I really respected. Um, and it was good, it was a good experience. Yeah.

Will Ockenden 12:21

Yeah. Um, so Jerry, I was gonna say, you're um, you know, fast forwarding to what you're doing today, I think you're probably the first cult. Is it right? You're a cultural strategist. Is that your job title? Because I think you're the first cultural strategist we've ever had on the show.

Gerry Hopkinson 12:35

Okay. Yeah, it's it's a fancy. I'm gonna I'm not gonna lie, it is a fancy uh title. Um what what that really relates to. So so I'm doing a couple of things now. Um the main thing is that is cultural strategy. So I'm working with um a mate who I've known for 20 years, and we've our world did cross over a couple of times. He set up a very successful business and sold it um called Jump Studios. And what Jump did, it was

Culture Over Psychology In Strategy

Gerry Hopkinson 13:04

it was uh an architect and an advertising man, and what they did was they literally did bringing brands to life, right? So they did, for example, Red Bull's headquarters, they did a lot of work, they did some of the early Google campuses, they did um, you know, Nike Town, they did uh Mother, the ad agency's big you know offices, Wieden+Kennedy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But they also worked with brands like Honda, they did Honda Shorems, really successful business. And after he'd sold, and so we'd done some stuff together over the years with Unity and Jump, and then he sold and he said, Look, you know, I've got this new venture. It's called Um We Make Progress, and it's really just kind of living in this space between the client and the architects, in taking on a the way he explained it to me, taking on a similar role to kind of up the planning function in marketing of you know, thinking about, okay, well, what is the brief for the creatives? And, you know, how do we meet the needs of the audience through that brief, etc., etc. So uh my area of interest, as I said, is is people, but that tended to lean into um, you know, how culture, because I'm not a psychologist, so a lot of people will kind of when they talk about their deep interest in people, will talk about psychology. Um, I get psychology, I'm really interested in it. Um but my interest is more in, I'm more interested in society and culture. Um, you know, because I think we're group, we're a group animal. Um, and I think I'm interested in you know how things play out in the world. Um that's why I was always when I remember first hearing the term social media, and I thought, well, what media is social? You know, it's all social, really. Maybe a book is kind of one-to-one, but radio is a social media, you know, and and I often still think that print media in its best form, even now when it's when it's online, is is social in the sense of reflecting the concerns of all of us and providing a lens on the world, um, as opposed to this, I think, rather simplistic view of social media being a place where you negotiate your identity through the your peer group, like you're in high school, which is a bit silly, really. And I think that's why you know social media is a bit toxic now.

Chris Norton 15:36

Oh, yeah. The engagement comes from the hatred, doesn't it? A lot of the time. Love or hate. Uh there's sort of two things. There's a there's a reason why the world's more polarized than it's ever been, isn't there? I think so.

Gerry Hopkinson 15:47

Yeah, yeah. Um, and and it's funny because yeah, we want to it's it's that thing again. I'm kind of going, it's it's algorithms. But yeah, it's it is, but you know, we could easily change the algorithms. We could create algorithms that provided tolerance and and happiness and inclusion if we wanted to.

Will Ockenden 16:04

Imagine, imagine.

Gerry Hopkinson 16:06

I know, right? Yeah, wouldn't that be good?

Chris Norton 16:08

So when we spoke last time, you told me a bit about the Pizza Hut scenario.

Why PizzaExpress Once Felt Radical

Gerry Hopkinson 16:14

Oh, yeah.

Chris Norton 16:15

Pizza Express. Oh, Pizza Express. You told me about Pizza Express.

Gerry Hopkinson 16:18

Yeah, even better, even better, yeah.

Chris Norton 16:20

Yeah, yeah. Pizza Hut's in more trouble. Pizza Express is uh in my view of Pizza Express. It was a uh like a brand that anyone could go out eating, get get a reasonably good pizza. It was quite a new thing. Yeah, when did it come out? When did Pizza Express come out?

Gerry Hopkinson 16:36

Well, I can I can bore you senseless, but I won't. Uh 1965.

Chris Norton 16:41

Wow, that old.

Gerry Hopkinson 16:43

Yeah, it was really the first casual dining brand in the UK. Wow. Um before before then, you either had posh restaurants, which were very uptight, and on typically on a kind of French theme, you know, and really, really uptight, or you had calves, greasy spoons, diamonds you didn't have anything in between. And it came out of um the kind of post-war and then the long tale of austerity, and then the swinging 60s, as it was known, it came out of the energy of that generation who wanted a place for themselves. And so Peter Boizot, who founded it, um, kind of worked with some really cool people, worked with, you know, David Hockney, Richard Hamilton, Jean Shrimpton, Twiggy, and they all sat around and talked about what we can do. Well, the first thing was they brought a kitchen from out from the back and hidden into the restaurant so it was visible. And they thought, well, pizza is really fun because pizza's kind of very easy to eat, it's quite democratic. So let's do pizza. So they did literally pizza on wax paper slices, like slices of pizza on wax paper and beer and wine and water. And the first restaurant was in Soho, um, and it was a great success. So then they just started doing more and more. It worked with so Peter worked with this amazing uh artist and designer called Enzo Apicella, um, who's Italian, Brit, um, super cool, in that whole 60s set in Soho. And his the second Pizza Express was a converted um fire station in Bloomsbury. And at that, at that time, that was about as radical a decision as you could make. It was so hip. Like the thing to know about the brand was back in the 60s, it was incredibly hip, incredibly progressive. It was fun, it was super stylish, everyone wanted to hang out there. Then it went through a bunch of, and I'm paraphrasing and being a bit beastly now. It went through a bunch of sales and changes and fast forward to where I encountered the brand, and it had lost a lot of that. Some really practical things. The acoustics were terrible in most of the restaurants, and it was full of families with small kids. So if you went in, it was tough on years. Um, the menu was good, but the pizzas had been beaten down in size and quality by the accountants to the point where they'd lost a lot of the joy and and and sexiness of a good pizza, and it just had lost a lot of its kind of cultural relevance, shall we say? Um, so we did a first piece of work because I knew the guys there, and I really loved the brand, by the way. I always loved it. And I love the fact that it's kind of Britalian, it's a bit British and it's a Brit Italian, it's super, it's one of those places I think that's super democratic. It has a long history of jazz because Peter loved jazz. So it still has one of the best jazz venues in the world. It's just a fun place. Um, so our first piece of work we did with them was called The Never Ending Song, and it was a jazz thing. It was inspired by Homer Simpson, who said in one of the episodes, those jazz guys, they just make it up. So we we basically we we went, we started um in the Pizza Express in Soho, where they have a jazz that stage, and there's a band playing, and then the the musicians got off the stage at the end of the night, kept playing, got into a van, kept playing, and did a 10-city tour for 24 hours a day for seven days, 24-7. And we swapped, we had band A and band B. So it was a bit like in the relay races. We swapped the the musicians. It was bonkers, absolutely bonkers, but everyone loved it. It generated more footfall, loads of great you know, publicity and awareness and reappraisal of the brand. It did lots of good things for the brand. It was a nightmare logistically. I bet it. I almost lost, lost a member of staff, and he referred to it as the never-ending ball ache. Um, but I shall not say that. We can't.

Will Ockenden 21:15

Did they genuinely continue playing in the um in the van, or did they have a cheeky rest when the van was driving?

Gerry Hopkinson 21:21

No, no, no. Well, we we we did it, it was it was uh dogma rules. We did it 100% authentically, but uh it was tough. Anyway, so the client loved that, and we did a couple of other projects for them, and then I got I was in again in Soho, we were doing a tasting or something. Marketing directs came up to me at the end of the night and said, Really well done. You know, what else do you think we should be doing? And I paused for a moment. And I took her, I'd had it, I maybe had a couple of cocktails, but I took her at her word and I said, Well, listen, I love the brand, but I think the restaurants, all the design is just old and tired. I think you did need to do something about the acoustics. I think the menu needs a refresh, and I think your service is just is is wanting in a number of ways. And she went, okay, great, thanks. And she spun on her heel and walked out. And I thought, oh shit. So I rang up, you know, rang up my colleagues and I said, Listen, I think I've just lost a Pizza Express account. And then a week later, she said, Oh, can you come and see me, please? So I thought, okay, great. She's gonna call me in, she's gonna give me address, addressing down, and then she's gonna fire me in person. I thought I deserve it. So I go in, I'm braced for it. She said, Hey, um, she said, you know, our talk the other day, she said it really took me back aback, and and I had to think about it. And you know, I thought about it and I thought, you're absolutely right. So I but the shit, but the thing is, if we touch like one, you know, jalapeno on a pizza, all our customers, because they're such fans, they go nuts. We can't do anything. So how do we do this? And I said, Okay, great. I was regrouping really quickly, and I was like, okay. So So what I think we need to do is give me one restaurant that's not doing well and let me have free reign and I won't tell you how much, but X amount of money, X being rather a lot. Um, and you know, if we don't improve foot footfall and everything else, and all your key indicators financially and in terms of marketing, everything, if we don't smash it out of the park,

A Jazz Stunt That Rebooted Buzz

Gerry Hopkinson 23:34

then fire me. Uh, but if we do, then let's roll it across the estate.

Chris Norton 23:40

Ballsy.

Gerry Hopkinson 23:41

Yeah, all the estate. Uh and and I and so I laid it out like that, and she said, Well, I'm gonna have to get board approval for that. And I said, Okay. I said, but look, but we you really have to trust, trust us. We need if we're gonna do this, then I you know, we really need to have you know some creative freedom. She said yes. So off we went. And what we did was we created what we ended up calling a living lab. So we took over Pizza Express in Richmond, and we basically did a whole series of questions via um the website and social platforms, and we said, look, we're going to re wanna reimagine Pete's Express and we need your help. So we've assembled a little team of lab technicians, we called them. So we had the head chef of Pete's Express, we had a couple of other um people who were really great cooks we wanted to bring in. We had some designers, we had a professor of acoustics from the University of Rome, who was amazing. We had a theater um director um, you know, there for the for the the the um ambiance and service stuff, and la la la. Oh, we had Ab Rogers, son of Richard Rogers, who was the um designer. So we had everybody in place, and then we said, okay, what would you like to see us do with food? You know, what aren't we doing that we could be doing? What how will might we change? So, and we went right away through everything and we got some great ideas, and so and we also, you know, fielded ideas ourselves, but things like why don't you do breakfast? Um, things like why don't you have a takeaway counter? Um, things like um could you couldn't could people program their own music and create a kind of halo effect around their seats to deal with the sound? Um just a whole range of things, changing the colors, changing the logo, um a bunch of stuff, changing the uniforms. So we did a variety of these things, and then we brought them back into Richmond and we kind of redesigned Richmond, opened it up, and then when people came in, and we gave them a very good deal on a meal, you know, then they could vote on what they liked and what they didn't like, and whatever they liked would stay and roll across the estate, and what they didn't like would get wiped out. But the here's the thing this was the big, big, big learning, and it came out of our head of planning, who was uh a doctor of social psychology um from the LSE, and she didn't know anything about PR or marketing, but she knew tons about human beings, and she said, Look, just the fact that you're giving people the opportunity to get involved means they will become massive, like at super advocates, and you'll get a lot of love. And sure enough, we did, and it was wildly successful, and they rolled out rolled it out across the estate, and they ended up selling the business. It you know, it was it was good, it worked. It all worked

Chris Norton 26:39

that that that's amazing. But you basically created a um I've eaten in that Pizza Express, by the way. I was trying to I was trying to figure out when it was because I was um in Richmond.

Gerry Hopkinson 26:49

Quite a while ago.

Chris Norton 26:50

Uh two uh about 25 years ago, I lived in London. I used to live in West London, so okay. Um I was trying to figure out if I was there then.

Gerry Hopkinson 26:58

But well, it it was about 20, I would say about 2012, something like that. So yeah, quite a while ago. Um but you some of the some of the decisions we made, like for example, the logo is pretty much the same now as it was when it was redesigned by Graphic Thought Facility back then. Um the color scheme, um yeah, tableware, pretty much the same. And there was a lot a lot of learning, and it was it was fascinating to learn, I think, also about you know, we'd done some work in hospitality, but hospitality is a really interesting sector, I think, because you know, it's the it's there's so many. I I kind of think about the Golden Triangle, which is you know the food, the service, and the ambiance, and they all have to be really good in order for uh a restaurant anyway to be considered really good. But they also have to kind of speak to each other in the right way. So if you got super formal service, but the place looks really laid back and the menu's a bit casual, that's gonna jar. You know, but equally, if you got kind of like, you know, the kind of American style, you know, hey, I'm Jerry and I'm gonna be your waiter today, but you're at a two-star Michelin restaurant, people would be like, yeah, just go away, Jerry. Yeah. So it's like getting it right is is about so you you you talked about hospitality then.

Will Ockenden 28:20

I mean, hospitality is a sector we we do a fair bit of work in. Obviously, current landscape, an abundance of restaurants, that kind of um yeah uh casual dining segment is absolutely chocked full. You've also got this kind of awful, you know, kind of um issue of minimum wage increasing, NI um increasing, you've got consumer spending down, you've got the cost of raw materials up, you've got this, you know, business rates are spiral out of control. Probably, you know, high street restaurants have never been under more pressure. Certain chains

The Richmond Living Lab Playbook

Will Ockenden 28:54

to be succeeding. What's your kind of analysis of where we're at now and who's and and is there a way out of it? You know, is it simply about getting the basics right, having an amazing brand? You know, what would your advice be to those restaurants?

Gerry Hopkinson 29:06

Yeah. Yeah, really good question. And I think, look, it is a really tough trading environment. I think almost universally every sector you talk to, um, you know, maybe apart from physiotherapy, which is booming, um, but you know, most sectors are in trouble, right? It's it's a difficult moment. We're going through this massive once in a in a century at least kind of you know shift. Um, I think I would point to a couple of things, and having done a lot of work in analyzing what is the formula for success in casual dining for other brands as well, I would say innovation is incredibly important. Um, a bit like luxury. Um what I mean by that is the innovation that creates prestige and distinction and desirability is the innovation that has to be maintained and nurtured and protected at all costs. Um and often what happens is it gets played with by people who aren't who didn't come up with it or who don't understand how to value it. So, of course, you need operationally to make money and have good margins, and you need you know, predictability, you need um good price quality, you know, price control, you need to manage your supply chain, all those things, but you don't let those guys make decisions about the customer experience. If you do, you you you're you're in trouble. And when I talk about innovation, I mean if you take a brand like KFC, it's about the chicken, stupid. And actually, it's about the particular taste of the chicken, and it it is about the herbs and spices, it is about the the the you know the crispiness uh uh and the texture of the chicken when you eat it. Everything else is serving that. So that's the innovation at KFC. And when KFC lost its way, in my opinion, it's because they forgot that. Now, Mother did a great job about tone around tone of voice and personality and spoke to a new generation, but all they did was introduce a new generation to a superior innovative product. That's that's what I'm talking about.

Chris Norton 31:18

It's finger licking good, it's finger-licking, it's finger-licking good. Yeah, and it amazes me like with brands that move away from like the old school, and then uh they get a new CMO or a new marketing doctor, they move away from uh the old school to to revolutionise, because they've only got they're only going to be in the job. Every CMO, I think their average it's like two to three years, and they come in the nicker chain, they want to make they want to change the agencies, they want to, you know, and do everything which has actually been proven not to be the right thing to do. To to and and then they they check they change it, they get rid of they get a load of new assets, brand assets, and it turns out they don't work quite as well. Although your Pizza Express example is is a good example of where if you test it, you can get it right instead of just going straight into it. And often you find that they get three or four marketing directors in, yeah, and that and they go they go back to um Wheatabix or uh you know, like uh I'm trying to think of sort of the strap lines that have come back from when they were they they'd gone Colonel Sanders is a good example though.

Gerry Hopkinson 32:20

Yeah, Coca-Cola went through it famously when they they launched the new formula and then they went back to the classic Coke. Um but if you look at you look at campaigns that are part of the fabric of of culture, back to cultural strategy, you know, um Specsavers, a lot of brands could do worse than than emulate Specsavers, you know. They know who they are, they use humor really well, they focus on their customer, and yeah, they've got one gag, they've got one joke, and they tell it over and over, but we like the joke, it's a good joke. What's not to like about it? And a lot of marketing directors go and go, I don't want to follow, you know, I'm gonna change it up. Like you'd be mad to change it up. Same with Kit Kat, you know, have a break, have a Kit Kat. If there's a better line, I've never heard it.

Chris Norton 33:09

You know, yeah, yeah, exactly. I was just thinking of all the I'm thinking of all the ads when I was a kid now that you remember that you literally just because I I went, I was tell I've said this to quite a few people on the pod, but like um we went to see the Peter Kay, you know, he's you know doing the church and he he spends 30 minutes just singing what half a line, if you like a lot of chocolate, and then and look puts the mic like that, and the whole place goes on your biscuit,

Gerry Hopkinson 33:35

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Norton 33:36

And you're like, what? Absolutely. Well, you know, that's it. And um, PR doesn't often get the same opportunity to be part of culture. It it's got plenty of greatest hits, you know. The Guinness Book of World Records is a PR idea. The Tour de France is a PR idea.

Will Ockenden 33:54

The Michelin guide.

Gerry Hopkinson 33:56

The Michelin guide is a PR idea, right? These are these are big and lasting ideas. Um people wouldn't sing them, but we all like them, right? They're really great. Um so I think you're right. And I, you know, we were always really interested at Unity, and that's where I think got the bug, and why I'm still interested in um how can you be part of culture and bring your brand into it in a way that you know relates to what's happening into the world and kind of demonstrates that you get it and you're part of it, as opposed to you know, being really tone-deaf or being like bragging or trying to pretend you're something you're not. And a lot of brands do

Surviving Casual Dining With True Innovation

Gerry Hopkinson 34:44

this, and you know, so we've got we worked with a lot of really smart, kind of fancy. I suppose people would say, oh god, that's really esoteric, but you know, we worked with a semiotician, basically people who are experts in signs and symbols, you know, and super helpful because a lot of PR is about, you know, you want to get the tone right, you want to make sure that something is resonating with people. And semioticians are really good at going, actually, no, that's gonna make you look like X or feel like Y, or you know, that's not that's not true. Um but I think the other thing I suppose I'd say, I mean, to to maybe give I'll give you another example of um well, uh a client experience um that we had. Uh and I'll it'll it'll arrive at a mistake, I promise. Um but the which was a commercial mistake. Um anyway, so we we were working, we we were invited to work with um Perna Ricard, um you know, the French um drinks group, and it was a really cool brief, so it was for uh Perno, it was for Absence. Oh nice, and which Absence, not Absinthe Absinthe, Absinthe, Absence is how the French say it. Absolutely.

Chris Norton 36:15

Okay, no, I did not know that. Absinthe, never heard it's got my mind.

Gerry Hopkinson 36:19

We can say Absinthe. Um I think I because I had to practice saying it over and over.

Chris Norton 36:24

I know I was gonna say, well, because you were the PR doing it, you obviously had to talk to the the brand guardian. Exactly. Is it pronounced Absinthe? That's how it was.

Will Ockenden 36:32

You get five percent absinthe, Chris.

Gerry Hopkinson 36:36

You say tomato. Um so anyway, so they they said, look, you know, Pernod Ricard was actually founded by Pernod, who bought Absinthe uh as a brand and merged it, and then so it's very important. It's it's it's the one of the origin brands of of Perino Ricard. So, but you know, it's tiny volumes, tiny, tiny. We it was historically a very important brand. We would like to revive it. Um, could you guys please, before you do anything, can you just do a study of um creative create the creative class basically? And it was in London. Sorry, I know Chris bloody snobbery about London being the epicenter of the world, but I know it's Manchester now, but back then it was London, briefly. So it's like we don't talk about Manchester.

Chris Norton 37:32

We don't talk about the Manchester on this podcast, Jerry. It's it's all about leaves, not it's not Manchester, it's it's Yorkshire.

Gerry Hopkinson 37:40

I'm down with that. Absolutely.

Chris Norton 37:42

That's jokes, it's jokes. I'm not talking I know.

Gerry Hopkinson 37:46

Um, so anyway, so we did this, we did this study, and you know, they said, so for example, we hear that shortage is is is where all the creativity is. So we did this study, we did, we took it really seriously, we geeked out on it, and we had heat maps with 11 kinds of you know types of creative industries in the UK. We interviewed all these people and we said, look, actually the epicenter of creativity is Soho. And it always has been. And the reason is because they went, Oh, of course, that makes sense. And actually, there's a French community there, originally Huguenot, so it's perfect for a brand. So anyway, um, from there, we created a um a platform, uh brand platform called Think Work Play, which was basically um creatives talking to other creatives. So it would be, for example, um, what we'd do is we'd say, you know, let's say, Chris, you were a filmmaker, we'd say, Okay, Chris, um, who's your favorite filmmaker um today, still making films? And then we'd go to that person and say, Okay, who's your favorite filmmaker today making films? And we'd go about five or six times until the same names started cropping up. Usually it was really interesting. I mean, it was a it was a short list of two or three in every category. And then we'd go and interview those people. And we'd make three little short films. One film, which is about their creative process, that was the think, one film about whatever they were doing at the moment or had just done, which was the work, and one film about, because it was Perno Absence, play. Where do they hang out? Who do they drink with? Where do they drink? Where do they party? Cool stuff they know about, all that. And we put the three films up and off we went, and it was a huge success. And what it did was it started to attract really interesting, really authentic, creative, creative people in London into this community. And anyway, long story short, we grew their volume by 300%. The brand went crazy. Everybody wanted to do collabs with them. We we did a ton of great work with brands with like Kitsuné and fashion brands and revived it, and it was all great. And we were crushing it, and they wanted to throw more brands at us, and then someone else, a very large brand house, not Perna Recard, said, Do you want to pitch for another one, another brand of theirs, which was wildly famous and huge? And we said yes, and we pitched, and we had to we had to tell Perna that we couldn't no longer work with them. And they were really and they were really upset. And uh we did it because we thought, well, we're never gonna get another opportunity to work with such a big, famous brand. But my gut, my instinct was I'm letting these guys down, and actually I'd be happier, even I might not make as much money, but I'd make enough, and I'd be happier working with them, and I owe it to them. And there was something in me, my moral compass, going, You're selling out, don't do this. And I sold out and I regretted it.

Will Ockenden 40:46

And I was the relationship like with the you know, was it it sounds like it wasn't worth it, you know. You may have you may have doubled your fee income, but um, we were great.

Gerry Hopkinson 40:57

Look, I I I yeah, I don't I really not b even because of NDAs, but just because I I believe it's not right. I don't I don't tell I don't criticize clients, I don't tell nasty stories about them. They all the clients we've ever had have been fantastic. I've been grateful for them. We were able to do good work, genuinely. And if we didn't, then we they weren't clients anymore. But we, you know, really and truly, but what I would say is um it was hard work. We ultimately regretted it. Um, of course, it ran its course. We did some really good work, I mean fantastic work with this new this new entity, but um the lesson I learned was um be loyal. Loyalty pays, it pays off.

Chris Norton 41:45

Yeah, it usually does. Well, I what I find a struggle though is you can have an excellent relationship with a client working in any agency, any sector, and any of a client there'll be loads of clients listening to this. Yeah, and you you've we've got excellent relationships with the client, and then the client the clients just sometimes they stay 10-15 years, sometimes they move on. They move on, and then your client goes, the new client comes in and you're gone, even though you've been loyal for 15, you know, eight years or whatever.

Gerry Hopkinson 42:10

Oh, bring their own people in. It it's a massive problem, you know. Um again, back to perhaps what we were talking about earlier. You know, the brands that I think really are successful have long-term relationships with their agencies. And and the agency then becomes it, you know, when a new team comes in, they become the knowledge center for the right.

Will Ockenden 42:34

Yeah, yeah. And the and the body of knowledge as an agency, specialist knowledge, you will build up over time is such an asset for a big brand, isn't it? Absolutely.

Gerry Hopkinson 42:43

It is, it is.

Chris Norton 42:45

So what what's Gerry doing in 2026 then? A cultural strategist, what you actually do, what are you doing right now? So are you just sitting back pontificating, smoking a cigar and going to the colour?

Gerry Hopkinson 42:55

Mostly mostly culture. Well, you've probably gathered that pontificating comes rather easily to me. So yeah. Um, um I'm doing kind of chiefly three things. Um, one is the cultural strategy work with um Simon Jordan at We Make Progress. And we we're work, we work with um asset owners who own you know big properties, football stadiums, things like that, but also big tracts of land, and property developers. We work with architects and architectural teams and with designers, um, and doing you know really interesting work, so that's super fun and enjoy doing that. Um, the second thing is believe it or not, I'm working with one of my daughters, Ray, who um started her own PR agency called Suede Studio, which is doing very well. And her focus is primarily on um sustainability, but also ethical

Loyalty Lessons And What Comes Next

Gerry Hopkinson 43:54

uh brands and people. So she she works with individuals and she works with brands, and she um, for example, she just she wouldn't work with anybody who didn't give a shit about the planet. She's she's pretty fierce like that. Um but yeah, she um unashamedly um involves her papa.

Will Ockenden 44:15

Uh and how does that dynamic how does that dynamic work? Do you have to kind of um it's a good question? Overreach when it comes to advice.

Gerry Hopkinson 44:24

Yeah. Um so you know what? It's uh it's back to that thing by having a new relationship. No, we know each other really well, obviously. She um I learned plenty from her, and I tell her that all the time. And um then she'll allow me to say, Well, look, you know, as somebody who's been around the block a bit, here's what I think, or whatever. And but I don't what I've learned is I don't give advice unless I'm asked. And when I work with her, it's usually true brief. And you know, we get on really well, and it's fun. And it's it's it's very nice to have um uh someone uh do the same thing that you did and follow in your footsteps, even if they're doing it completely differently, which she is, of course. But it's it's very nice. So it's it's a it's a really lovely thing. And then the Thing I'm doing is working with really just a small collection of brands who are small and independent, um, who are on the way to scaling, some of whom have PE backing, some of whom are bootstrapped, and I really love that work. Um, and what I try to do is just because I think of where I am in life now and got quite a few years under my bell, is just try to be a good sounding board for them. Um, and we do execute stuff together, but often it's just about being a um, I think they in Silicon Valley they call it a silverback, which is you know, uh a white older wiser or at least older uh gorilla silverback gorilla, exactly. Yeah. Um, you know, just someone who's been around a bit and can say, hey, um, you know, for example, uh with one of the one one of the brands I'm working with at the moment, we're spending a lot of time thinking about pricing and the way in which pricing relates to perception and image. Um, and it kind of has gone against the grain of what their investors have told them. And I've had to kind of had a bit of a heated debate with their investors as well, saying, actually, look, what you're trying to build is if you're trying to build value, if you want to rinse this role it's worth get out in 12 months, by all means keep your price point there. If you want to exit smoothly and build something of value, I'd try it like this. Um, so I think it's a that I think maybe all the work I'm doing now, I think the joy of it is I can really speak freely. I don't have a business behind me, I don't have other people's mortgages to worry about. Yeah, I can be myself.

Chris Norton 46:57

We we do well, quite right. I'd love to be where you are because it's like I but then I feel like I'd miss I quite like the fact that your your daughter's gone into our industry as well. Yeah. Because that's kept you that's kept you toe in it as well. Like you can get involved. I might my son's um he's about to be 19 this weekend, actually. Yeah, and he said, if he said, Dad, if you die, I'm just gonna go in and sell your business within five days. So, you know, I don't I don't I don't think he's gonna work.

Gerry Hopkinson 47:28

What does Will have to say about that?

Will Ockenden 47:29

Well I've not been consulted on this, Gerry.

Gerry Hopkinson 47:37

He thinks we do well. Well I he sounds like he sounds like um he's gonna be very successful businessman. He's gonna be quite quite cutthroat.

Chris Norton 47:44

Yeah, yeah. Um, but I love the fact that you've kept your toe in and you still do I I have got another question actually. Yeah, when I was looking at you, um what you've done before, yeah, and I don't we didn't talk about this when when I spoke to you before. Is you you had some investment. Oh, you did something with Tin Man, didn't you? Tin Man.

Gerry Hopkinson 48:00

Yes, yes. I uh basically backed Tin Man um along with Nik Govier, who is the other person I started Unity with, uh, and then bought her out 2017 or something, can't remember. Um, but we it we'd known Mandy Sharp, who started Tin Man from our days at Band & Brown. Um, and yeah, we we backed her and had uh some investment uh as a result and then exited. Yeah, and they've done super well. I mean, yeah.

Will Ockenden 48:31

We see we watched them on the awards circuit, and they you know they went through a phase a few years ago, literally every year. They'd win eight awards per awards. Brilliant work as well.

Chris Norton 48:43

Well we're there rock rocking up with uh with our three and thinking we're Captain Big Bollocks and then they walk out with eight.

Gerry Hopkinson 48:50

Nothing wrong with that. I mean, you know, so what that was really one of the first things that we we we said to Mandy, the importance of awards in driving reputation, new business, talent, recruitment, everything else. It's just it pays off in spades. And so we really helped with that. We had a bit of a and we did very well with awards at Unity. So we had a good template and formula for for entries and thinking about it. And in our experience, you really have to start when you get the brief. You have to say, okay, how can we create an award-winning campaign? And you start to figure out what are the elements of an award-winning campaign. And and to be honest with the entries, a lot of it is. I don't want to do anybody down who's won awards, including Unity, who won you know loads and loads. Um, but some of it is like we tell clients, it's about how you tell a story as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Norton 49:42

Yeah, it's off yeah, I having judged having been involved, I think it's also about now, it's about tying the objectives back to business impact at the end. They're the ones that are gonna win now. That's true. Cannes Lions and all those, those it's all about business impact now. Rather, it used to be about comms objectives and marketing objectives, and now it used to be about business impact, which is exactly exactly what you were talking about with your your Pizza Express example, which is why I thought it was brilliant. Like you've you actually I was gonna say you did in 2012, you were A B testing a real life restaurant, which is yeah, amazing, really clever.

Gerry Hopkinson 50:18

Uh well, do you know what the thing is, what we realize is that a lot of people will come up with a concept that they think is right and then put it out to market research. And when you do that, what you tend to get is cognitive bias, right? Because the the researchers are subtly picking up on a vibe which is please tell me this is right. So you tend to be told something is right, and it can fail more often, I think. The other way around is to start with the research, right? And go, okay, you know, what do you want? So if I think about IKEA, which is one of the most successful retail brands in history, most people know this, but it's worth repeating. They have a massive ethnographic research study they do every year around the world. They go into hundred thousands of homes and offices in all the countries. They observe, they hang out, they have dinner, they watch how people live, they take photographs, they listen, they take it all, they bring it back home to Sweden, they dump it on the table, they sift through it, they then mark up and go, what's different, what's new, and that goes into the design brief for next year's stuff, which is why all their stuff is effortlessly, you know, on trend and culturally relevant year after year after year. It's not rocket science, it's just you know, make things people want rather than making people want things, as my friend John Wiltshire says.

Chris Norton 51:53

Great line.

Will Ockenden 51:54

Just before we move on, I want to talk about pizza a little bit more. Two two comments. Is that a pizza sign I can see in the background behind it?

Gerry Hopkinson 52:02

Oh, that in the background, that is it says it says ooh, gizza hug.

Will Ockenden 52:08

Oh, I thought it said pizza.

Gerry Hopkinson 52:12

It says ooh, yeah gizza, not pizza. Oh right. 170521, which was the the first, the big day of uh the end of lockdown when you could actually have people around and give them a hug.

Will Ockenden 52:30

I couldn't see the G, I thought it was a P saying pizza, and then the second It looks like pizza. Yeah, it does. It does.

Gerry Hopkinson 52:36

It is true. I have pizza on my mind most of the time. I I I love pizza.

Will Ockenden 52:40

I was gonna say um a kind of a pizza chain that's really grabbed me that just gets it and it started franchising around not I don't even expanding around the UK. There's one in Leeds now. It started in Soho, it's called Pizza Pilgrims. I don't know if you've ever been. It's like a backstreet Naples restaurant, and I think those guys just get it. Absolutely, they get it.

Gerry Hopkinson 53:02

They do. They do, they're really, really clever lads. And um actually Warren Johnson, Ed W kind of backed them and mentored them and invested in the brand, early early doors. Um, and yeah, they took a trip to um Naples, the home of pizza, and learned to make pizza there. They've studied the greats, and then they took their little van, their pizza van on tour till they perfected it, and then they opened them. I think that's the story of the innovation there is just make real Neapolitan pizza.

Will Ockenden 53:35

And the decoy is there's like pictures of Diego Maradona, there's um Naples football jerseys hanging from washing line. I mean, the it's brilliant, the whole thing is brilliant, and the product is amazing.

Gerry Hopkinson 53:44

It's a really good brand. Yeah, I agree.

Will Ockenden 53:47

Um that's tough to talk about pizza.

Chris Norton 53:48

Well, no, it's good because I could talk about pizza, but I'm aware that we've we've we've come to the end of the show. Wrap it up. So, yeah, I've got quite good. You've been on the show now, Jerry. And if you were us, yes, who's the next person you'd invite on the show and why? Ooh.

Gerry Hopkinson 54:05

Now, what do you cover all marketing disciplines? Yeah. Um, such a good question. I mean, can I email you back my answer? Just yeah, you can. We're gonna try to meet. I wanna no, I'm not gonna ask chat. No, I want to think about it because um, yeah, if I just take I like to think about things.

Will Ockenden 54:28

Yes, yeah. That's fine.

Chris Norton 54:29

And then um I imagine you'll think about it, and the answer will be brilliant as well. So I'll no I hope it will be.

Gerry Hopkinson 54:36

But uh yeah, be delighted to suggest someone. Thank you for asking.

Will Ockenden 54:40

And um people will be listening to this, Jerry, and I'm sure they want to start a conversation with you or connect with you. How can people get hold of you?

Gerry Hopkinson 54:47

Um easiest way is uh via prob's either my LinkedIn, which is Gerry Hopkinson, just message me there. Um yeah. Uh I think that's easiest.

Will Ockenden 55:01

Carry the kitchen.

Gerry Hopkinson 55:03

Yeah. Or exactly. Um just think about me and I'll I'll know who they are.

Will Ockenden 55:08

Yeah. The Richmond branch of Pizza Express at any given lunchtime.

Chris Norton 55:14

Yeah.

Gerry Hopkinson 55:15

Yeah. But I mean, we the the the site that's uh for the cultural strategy stuff is called we make progress.co. People can find me there. But I mean, I I think LinkedIn is where everybody finds everybody these days, isn't it?