Chris Norton: 0:00

Hi everybody, welcome back to Embracing Marketing Mistakes. This week is slightly different. We've got Courtney Milne from our team at Prohibition coming in to talk about mine and Will's favorite TV show and probably yours Severance and the great work that they've been doing in the world of marketing to make it a cult show and to get people who have not been watching it watching it. Some really great little stunts. So we wanted to invite Courtney, who's a massive she's like a super fan of the show. So come on and talk about it and get in front of the camera instead of behind it, because she's on the podcast team anyway. So if you're into Severance or you're into hearing all about how to promote a TV show and the clever bits of marketing that a TV show can do, this episode is for you. So sit back, relax and let's hear all about how Severance has become the number one show on Apple TV. Enjoy.

Chris Norton: 0:52

Welcome to the show, courtney Milne. Welcome, hi. So you've never been on the pod. No, I've been behind the scenes. You've been behind the scenes. You're on the podcast team. How long you worked here?

Courtney Milne: 1:02

Three years next week.

Chris Norton: 1:04

Really Mm-hmm. Oh, three, three years and what's been your personal highlight?

Courtney Milne: 1:09

oh, am I allowed to say working on reef? Yeah, of course that was pretty good. Yeah, lots of good coverage.

Chris Norton: 1:16

Yeah, it sold out their stock do you want to explain what happened?

Courtney Milne: 1:21

um, just a press release. I wish I could say that it was a very amazing well thought out campaign, expertly drafted and brilliantly sold and well timed, just a good bit of copy and it went everywhere.

Chris Norton: 1:32

Yeah, because Reef was like is it like an alcoholic lilt?

Courtney Milne: 1:38

Yeah, it's just like a fruity alka-pop, but it's made with real fruit juice. Does fruity alka pop, but it's made with real fruit juice does it exist anymore?

Will Ockenden: 1:48

little was it. Didn't it get bought by fanta? I think they've discontinued it. I had a conversation with somebody in a random cafe about how good, because they had some like surplus stock it was a total, total tropical taste, wasn't?

Courtney Milne: 1:56

it what is a little exactly I don't know, it was like a weird, just like tropical juice, yeah tropical drink.

Will Ockenden: 2:10

Yeah, yeah, I can see this podcast.

Courtney Milne: 2:13

I remember where there's original yeah, so, so.

Chris Norton: 2:16

So reef was your favorite yeah, I think so okay and um, today you're here to talk about what?

Courtney Milne: 2:22

severance, um, because I can just I can just yap about it and I just I really like the show. I think what they've done with their marketing is very clever, um, and I just think that there's lots that people can learn from it yeah, I'm very excited to hear what you've got to say here.

Will Ockenden: 2:38

Um, is there going to be any spoilers as well? Because I know, at the time of recording, we're reaching the show finale, aren't we?

Courtney Milne: 2:44

yes, so I'm not going to spoil it, but I can give an overview of roughly what it's about for anyone that doesn't know have you seen the end?

Chris Norton: 2:53

Will Not, yet no have you not?

Will Ockenden: 2:55

I've got like 20 minutes to go.

Chris Norton: 2:56

I just noticed you said you're getting towards the finale but we've all seen the finale, right, okay?

Will Ockenden: 3:01

well, please don't spoil it for me either, okay, otherwise I'll just storm out of the park. Well, I'm going to give a massive away.

Chris Norton: 3:06

There's lots of running.

Will Ockenden: 3:07

Let's just say that.

Courtney Milne: 3:08

There's lots of running in the show Lots of running.

Chris Norton: 3:10

Right, yeah, so let's. Maybe for those of you that aren't aware of what Severance is about, it's essentially a TV and your home life are very different because you've had a chip placed in your brain that allows you to. Once you go into the lift at work and you go down to the floor where you work, the chip activates and you're severed. You're on a severed floor. Therefore, your innie, who's doing the work on the severed floor, can remember everything that they do at work, but as soon as they get back in that lift, they're severed and they can't remember anything out of that floor. And then your outie is the person that arrives at the top of the lift and walks outside and might be married or have kids or whatever, but they don't know anything about what they've been doing in the company, right?

Courtney Milne: 4:00

and it's basically a surgical procedure. So, yeah, their brains are completely surgically separated and the idea is that the people that are, yeah, on the inside don't know anything about the outside, because it makes the work more meaningful and mysterious, and that's their only purpose.

Chris Norton: 4:19

I think Will's had this process. I think you've had this process, haven't you? You're naturally severed.

Will Ockenden: 4:26

Do they know they've been severed? The severed people? Yeah, yeah, they do, don't they?

Chris Norton: 4:29

The weird thing is they've opted in to be severed. But the innie who wakes up for the first time ever and the first day is when they wake up there in that room, isn't it? Yeah, and they don't know that. They don't know that they've voted, they don't know that they've opted to be in, because they never opted to be in the process, did they?

Will Ockenden: 4:47

No, I mean for me and you're going to come on to all of this. The reason I think it lends itself to amazing PR activations and marketing activations is because the look and feel of the show, particularly in the office, is quite iconic, isn't it?

Courtney Milne: 5:02

you want to talk to us about that, it's beautiful yeah, I think for us as the viewer it's, it's iconic because it's absurd. Like today people are trying to move away from very like clinical, clean, no personality filled offices. So it's different to the world that we currently exist in and I think if you were to put employees in that situation now, we'd all kind of be a bit like oh, could you not splash down a plant?

Will Ockenden: 5:30

you know, because it's this kind of central pod where four of them work.

Courtney Milne: 5:33

Yeah, ice, white walls, yep semi corridors seven 1970s big chunky monitors like non-friendly user interfaces.

Chris Norton: 5:42

But my first, is when do you think it's supposed to be set? Is it supposed to be set now, but in a 70s style? Or is it supposed to be set in the 70s because of the technology? I can't figure it out.

Will Ockenden: 5:53

I couldn't figure that out. I looked that up, actually, and it's Did you. Yeah, of course, it shows marks. God, this is getting geek people that everyone's switching off now, right now. It's a cool show, isn't? Yes, it's present day, because you see one of the protagonists um date of births or a driving license or something. Really, why don't you dive in and start telling us because there's a lot to cover here, isn't there? And they've just been doing some quite edgy activations around the show, haven't they?

Courtney Milne: 6:19

yeah, so I've picked out four things that I enjoyed, um, the first one being the LinkedIn profile that was set up as Lumen Industries. So they basically have set up a LinkedIn and, instead of it being just a LinkedIn about the show, that's managed on behalf of the show, with clips and things like that, is set up from the perspective of Lumen Industries, which is the employer in the show, and it's basically it's just used as propaganda, the way that lumen would run a social media. So it's got all of these like really weird incentives. It's got things that are specific to your innies fake job vacancies, amazing and they've basically just brought the company to life through linkedin, um, which kind of it underpins a lot of the strategy that's quite a creative thing to do, isn't it?

Courtney Milne: 7:04

and and are the characters on linkedin as well I don't think they are um, but the lumen industries linkedin does post assets with the characters on, so it kind of brings it back to them. Um, similarly, the you that you are book, uh, by dr ricken, who is, for anyone that doesn't know, the brother-in-law of one of the main characters.

Will Ockenden: 7:25

Um, he's like a self-help guru, isn't he?

Courtney Milne: 7:27

yeah, and he's a bit. I mean he's a bit cheesy and it's all a bit quirky yeah, and I think he's. He's not really meant to be taken very seriously, but then his book somehow ends up in the world of the innies, which I won't get into. But again, with the similar to the linkedin approach, they've basically made his book available on apple so you can actually read his book but his book was rubbish, wasn't it when they were reading it out?

Courtney Milne: 7:48

yeah. So to all the outies. They were like this is terrible. But then the innies are like, oh, this is revolutionary. But then the innies have they.

Chris Norton: 7:55

They're only trained on if I'm right, they're only trained on the lumen stuff, so they only know the history of the company, what the company's done. So this was like the first non-company text they'd ever seen. It was like the most revolutionary thing that they'd spotted, and that's available on.

Will Ockenden: 8:09

How's that available then Amazon you can buy it on Amazon, yeah and it's available on audio as well, on Apple.

Courtney Milne: 8:14

I'd love to listen to it yeah, I'm off on holiday.

Chris Norton: 8:17

I don't mind listening to it on holiday I find it super serious as well yeah, it will be.

Courtney Milne: 8:23

It will be literally like this piece of self-help content, as if it was the guy that wrote it, because he is, you know, dr rick and hale, and yeah it's. It's basically just another way that they've made it. They've made the world that the show is in, even though it's quite ambiguous and we don't know where it's set and we're not really clear on the time specifically. It's just a clever way that they've brought it to life through non-traditional channels as well.

Will Ockenden: 8:46

Yeah, they're not. They're not using um actual marketing channels per se, are they?

Chris Norton: 8:50

no, but the weird, the weird thing is like they're they're using linkedin. You know the setting the thing, the reason why we're all asking about when it's set, is because the hairstyles are 70s, the cars are all 70s. There's nothing in the show that actually is from this sort of area. Like you said, the keyboards in the office yeah, really big, clunky things. And it just reminded me when you described the office. It reminds me a bit of like um the office, an office from you won't remember this, but an office back in the day, like back in the day, early 90s, late 80s or whatever. But then people used to smoke in offices then, but they don't smoke in this show or anything in the office which you would imagine that they would in that sort of period.

Will Ockenden: 9:27

So are these two kind of quite I know you're going to talk about some more these just kind of quite organic, subtle activations, do you think? I mean, have you got anything in the way of numbers? How many people follow them on the linkedin profile? I'd imagine quite a few yeah, so they've got 87.

Courtney Milne: 9:43

I I think over 85,000. So, yeah, 87,000 followers on the LinkedIn page, and this is the kind of thing that would naturally I'd imagine this would appear in your recommended companies to follow, or something, wouldn't it?

Will Ockenden: 9:55

Which is such an organic way. You know it's not really push marketing, is it? It's very, very discreet, which makes it work so much better, doesn't it?

Courtney Milne: 10:04

Yeah, and I think, with the way that they've done it, I think the main thing that underpins it all is that the world is that they're in in the show suddenly becomes very tangible and very real and it gives us something to like physically behold. So, whether that is the audiobook, whether that is the linkedin um the vinyl that I can chat a little bit about it's, it's giving people like a piece of the world, instead of just telling them what the show is and saying, go and watch my show.

Chris Norton: 10:33

It's letting people kind of like live it themselves it's like, yeah, the show's cult and it's making like quite cult following. What's the vinyl then? What if they put on vinyl?

Courtney Milne: 10:43

this is my favorite bit. So the soundtrack, I just love it because it's, it's creepy, it's eerie, it fits the vibe of the office, I think. Um, and basically there's an innie and an outie version of the vinyl soundtrack. So the outie one is just quite normal. It comes in the kind of it's. It's like a file, like a physical file that you would put paperwork in, um, and that was just quite standard and anyone can kind of buy that. But then there's a limited edition, any vinyl that comes with a load of extras from within the office. So it has different employee cards, it has a music dance experience card, a record safety card, and the idea is that it's meant to hold all these little treasures that only your any would know about.

Will Ockenden: 11:26

So the music dance experience is that the I'd love to do that jazz genre defiant jazz.

Courtney Milne: 11:31

We do that at work next week and how's that vinyl available?

Will Ockenden: 11:34

are they? Are they selling that through record shops or via spotify or something?

Courtney Milne: 11:37

um, yeah, so I don't. Unfortunately it's not available anymore. Um, but they have like a separate landing page that you can go to and it's available was available through a few retailers as well.

Will Ockenden: 11:48

I feel streaming on some of the streaming services would have been an opportunity as well. Yeah, but again.

Courtney Milne: 11:53

I think it just comes back to like a very deliberate kind of like analog marketing style of like they want it to be something that you can physically have and and kind of cause. I think that's. That's kind of the thing like it's really easy, not easy, but maybe there's more opportunity with digital avenues, and I think people kind of look towards AI because there's like so much opportunity. But when all of that is available to you, I feel like sometimes as the viewer, as the consumer, we do enjoy those more analog things because not everyone's doing them and it makes you feel like you are a part of that world, because it's not very digital where they are.

Chris Norton: 12:32

You know what I mean, and talking of analog. So the PR stunt they did for it was absolutely amazing, wasn't it? Yes, If your budgets are of no consequence. This was genius what they did. Can you explain what the PR stunt was?

Courtney Milne: 12:46

Yeah, so it was a fully enclosed glass box which was a replica of the office. So, as you mentioned, it is just the four desks kind of, and they all kind of face each other when they sit at work. And the main four characters plus, uh, miss cobell, the manager of the severed floor, um, they were also put into this giant box. It was put into grand central station in new york, so super busy location for loads of people to pass by, um, and there was no brief um, I've watched a couple of videos with the actors and they just said they were told to just be be the characters, do their job.

Chris Norton: 13:23

The mysterious work of macro data refinement sort of time period, because I'm thinking if they've not got a script to just pretend to be doing stuff, it's quite scary.

Courtney Milne: 13:31

So I think I want to say it was about an hour, but I know that um, is it adam scott, the main guy? He said that there was like loads of technical faults at the start so they couldn't get some of the computers to work. And then, um, patricia arquette, who plays miss cobell, she went over to try and fix one of the computers as the manager and then that didn't work. So I think, yeah, there is a few kind of like technical faults, but they just styled out as the characters would yeah, which is amazing.

Will Ockenden: 13:58

It's genius. What I liked about that stunt? Not only did it go viral, as you'd expect, but then ben stiller, who directed severance um, came to film it on his mobile phone and it went viral again.

Courtney Milne: 14:08

Really yeah, and it's just, it's just brilliant.

Will Ockenden: 14:10

It's kind of um, layers upon layers of um. I don't know, I don't know what you'd call it. It's incredibly post-modern isn't it?

Chris Norton: 14:17

I just find it weird that ben stiller is the director as well, it's like because it's you'd think it'd be a comedy, but it's not. It's dead serious, really intense, and every show makes you ask more questions than answers it's.

Will Ockenden: 14:29

It's brilliant, but all these activations are sort of in the spirit of that, aren't they? They're slightly left field, true word of mouth type, I mean, because you know that grand central stunt, we were all talking about it in the office for days, weren't we? When when it happened, and I think we've been talking about all of the other ones as well yeah, they've said.

Chris Norton: 14:45

I heard the actors being interviewed and there was, they said that they it took the opening scene where they're running the opening scene of running five months to film and they film about five pages of text a day, so not a lot. It's because it's so beautifully shot. It's just takes pure time to do. Yeah. So what are the results then? How has what's happened, based off the, the marketing and the, what we're calling an analogue marketing campaign rather than a digital one?

Courtney Milne: 15:12

So, obviously, pr and results, it's something that we all like to try and measure. I've read that the Glassbox stunt alone is supposed to have generated over £5 million in earned media value.

Will Ockenden: 15:29

I'd say that's quite low, isn't it, would you think?

Courtney Milne: 15:30

that would cover the salaries. Just for one stunt, stunt would that cover salaries?

Chris Norton: 15:35

do you think for the day?

Will Ockenden: 15:40

I think it must be. I think it may be 10 times that, surely, because, well, maybe, maybe it's gone on to get more. I just feel like that's been maybe. I live in a severance bubble, though, and you naturally tune into it, or don't you?

Courtney Milne: 15:52

yeah, I think, and that is just from the one stunt. So, depending on whether they're measuring, like social media impressions, people that have then filmed it to then put it on social media, like that obviously then does numbers as well. Um, and obviously, yeah, the LinkedIn page gained thousands and thousands of followers as well. Um, and it overtook ted lasso as apple's most streamed show.

Will Ockenden: 16:15

I can believe it, but that's yeah I think that's the, that's the real metric here, isn't it? I mean, obviously, the show itself is brilliant, but it's the marketing has helped it become a word of mouth phenomenon and you know, these things grow and grow and grow, don't they? And I think more people are watching it now than ever and more people are talking about it now than ever. What I'd like to see, actually, I'm thinking what else they could do. They should do an art auction, shouldn't they?

Courtney Milne: 16:41

So there's some really creepy artwork, isn't there, like massively violent and distressing artwork or, like you know, like the statue bust of, like Keir's head, like auction off something like that for people to have, like partnership with Sotheby's or something, yeah, yeah, that'd be cool, wouldn't it?

Will Ockenden: 16:54

that would be amazing.

Courtney Milne: 16:55

But I think one of the things that is just cool about it is everyone that's involved with the show just cares about it so much like, I think, with TV now and with films. I suppose it's it's hard because people don't really want to take a risk, because there is so much to be lost and the amount of money that goes into a show like Severance I think we've talked about it being just one of the most expensive shows to make I think people don't really want to take that risk. But I think all these kind of out of the box, left of field marketing ideas it shows why you need to, because people do pay attention it's just such a basic and brilliant idea.

Chris Norton: 17:36

It's a basic idea, but brilliant at the same time.

Will Ockenden: 17:38

I think it's so clever yeah, I bet netflix are kicking themselves, aren't they? But um, yeah, you're right. And when I first heard about the concept, I thought I felt there was limited scope for any kind of storyline to develop, because it felt like quite a linear concept. But actually there's huge scope because essentially everybody has two personalities, don't they? I mean, yeah, it's brilliant. Are they making a third series, do you know?

Courtney Milne: 18:01

Yeah, yeah, I don't think it will take as long, because it was three years between season one and season two, but I think obviously the first one. I remember I watched it when it first came out and I'd said to a few people like, oh, I've just watched this like really insane show on Apple TV. Um, cause, I remember when I first watched it it really gave me kind of like black mirror vibes and it is a bit dystopian and a bit of a a social commentary on corporate America.

Will Ockenden: 18:27

Um so yeah, I remember just kind of like telling people about it and they were like oh, sounds weird, don't really, don't really care for that that was pretty much my reaction when everybody in the office started talking yeah, I remember, and you were like I don't really know if that's my bag, I must admit I think it was the grand central stunt that tipped me and when I realized, look, this looks quite interesting, I'll give it a go. And then, yeah, half an episode in. You're pretty much gripped, aren't you?

Courtney Milne: 18:48

yeah, and I think they've done well because I think the I think the key will be not to extend it too far. Yeah, um, there's obviously when it's making loads of money and it's getting loads of attention, the temptation is there to extend it to four or five, six seasons, which I don't think it is.

Will Ockenden: 19:02

Yeah, like you, you may not remember this, but there's a series called lost which was a similar kind of very strange and trippy kind of kind of storyline and the writers basically had only ever planned for like two seasons and they basically wrote themselves into a hole and I think it all ended up being a dream or something and that actually created a real, a real backlash and it kind of spoiled. You know, if they just ended it after three seasons or two seasons, it would have been much a work of art.

Chris Norton: 19:30

Yeah, yeah, it's money. They chase the money, don't they? Yeah, I mean the episode. The one episode of Lost that I remember that turned me right off was they were on a desert. They were on like a desert island and they found a metal thing and then they opened it and there was a polar bear inside there. Why?

Will Ockenden: 19:45

well, exactly it's said there's goats in severance. Isn't there rooms of goats? Spoiler?

Courtney Milne: 19:55

sorry, watch out for the goats massive spoilers on this massive spoilers on the goats.

Will Ockenden: 19:58

I did love the goat, that was a highlight, little emile yeah well, we'll have to you know, we'll have to get you back on the show and, uh, discuss some, some theories around what it all stands for, because I've certainly got some theories, um, but yeah, any, any other kind of stunts you've seen from severance, or are they the main ones you wanted to?

Courtney Milne: 20:16

I think those are probably the main ones. Um, and I think just the fact that the cast has been so, so active, ben stiller's been really across social media to like help with the promotion even after the show. They just did that um stunt in london where all the actors came and there was the giant blue balloon with Mark's head on it and they had like 50 guys in corporate suits walking around with these blue balloons and that's after the show has ended. So by that point they're kind of like we've done everything that we need to do, but they're just they want to keep it going.

Will Ockenden: 20:46

And I think these stunts, it's almost a super fans theory. You know, you get these stunts that appeal to the super fans, of which there's now millions, and they will amplify it to the mass market, won't they, you know? And they will all be obsessed by mark's head balloon.

Chris Norton: 20:59

I think it's more than just because it's weird. It's weird so it makes a good stunt, because everyone else, if you don't know, if you don't watch the show, you wander past. You're like what the hell is going on over there? Why are these the four people sat at a 1970s desk just working on some sort of computer game?

Will Ockenden: 21:15

why is Ben Stiller?

Courtney Milne: 21:16

filming it.

Chris Norton: 21:17

Why is Ben Stiller? Yeah, why is he here?

Courtney Milne: 21:20

anyway, well, thanks for that that was really interesting that was one of my favourites actually.

Will Ockenden: 21:24

Oh great, definitely have a spoiler alert at the beginning of the episode thanks.